Counterfeit 1909-S VDB Cent (MORE IMAGES ADDED)
PipestonePete
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Back in 1982 I answered a Coin World ad which offered an XF 1909-S VDB in trade for silver coins. I don't recall the amount in face value, but I do remember that the value of the silver was around $400 at the time. The coin arrived and I mailed it off to ANACS. It was returned BB'd and identified as a counterfeit. I stashed it away and just came across the coin again recently. I photographed it and noticed that one of the diagnostics is a flattening of the bottom of the letters of E Pluribus Unum. Does anyone else have one of these fakes?
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Brother, I'm not trying to be funny and I don't know anything about s-vdb fakes, but that is a good lookin' fake. If nothing else, it has value as a diagnostic tool.
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K S
Haven't seen one of those bogus Lincoln's in as many years.
Scary out there.
See if it has any of these diagnostics depicted in this article.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Just a thought PipsetonePete, but if you are trying to recoup your money, check with the ANA. See if donating a coin for educational purposes can be tax deductable.
Do I see a dot inside the upper curl of the mintmark? Isn't that a diagnostic of a real s-vdb?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
PS - thanks for the link, Batman - those were the best pics of a real 'S' and fake 'S' that I have seen.
I think the same style 'S' was used on the the 09-S Indian cent also.
IMO, if it is a counterfeit, it's a die struck counterfeit and not an added S. The S looks good to me based on the notched upper. The only thing that looks a little off to me is the V.D.B.
The V.D.B appears to be a little to left of left-center and the spacing between the initials and periods look off.
I don't know... the B looks like it might be a little too fat.
I am far from an expert.
I would resubmit.
And, by the way, I am far from an expert.
<< <i>The V.D.B appears to be a little to left of left-center and the spacing between the initials and periods look off. >>
Look at a genuine VDB and you'll notice the same characteristics.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>
<< <i>The V.D.B appears to be a little to left of left-center and the spacing between the initials and periods look off. >>
Look at a genuine VDB and you'll notice the same characteristics. >>
Yes, I know the legit VDB will be left of center but to my eye the OP's looks a little too far left.
After doing a bit of comparison I'd have to say the VDB is exactly where it should be and not too far left.
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<< <i>Here is a scan of the area above TRUST....doesn't appear to have the die gouge. So if this does happen to be authentic, it would have to have been struck by a different die than the one you describe, I guess. >>
I think that you have obverse die #3. The die gouge above the U of trust I understand occurs in later die states of obverse die #2. So I would not be discouraged by the lack of the gouge.
Also, I am far from an expert. I am reading from a book and... I am far from an expert.
Where is coppercoins when you need him?
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My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Edited to change P to S - good catch
Transfer Dies
Transfer dies are the most common devices used by the modern counterfeiter whose sole intent is to defraud. In the transfer method, the counterfeiter actually creates a working die. In the crudest form, called an impact die, a genuine coin will be sacrificed in making this fake working die by impressing it into die steel, as if the coin were a working hub. Once a pair of dies has been created, the counterfeiter then produces fake coins.
While these counterfeits can be difficult to detect, a coin produced by this method will always be identifiable-for when the counterfeiter impresses the dies, any defects the original coin might have had are unavoidably copied. Therefore, all subsequent copies the counterfeiter makes also will carry these defects, usually in the form of bag marks. Odds tell us that no two or more coins will contain identical contact marks in the exact same spots.
Sometimes the detector's job is made easier because the counterfeiter tried to remove the defects from the die and, in so doing, bungled the die and created what are known as tooling marks. Tooling marks appear on a coin as short, stubby raised lines. These result when the counterfeiter cuts grooves into the die in an effort to remove a raised lump-the lump that was creating the defective "bag mark." This lump was appealing on all the fakes, and the counterfeiter desperately wanted to remove it. By removing the repeating-yet unobtrusive- bag mark, the counterfeiter made detection easier by creating a coin that has obvious raised lines over the spot where a bag mark once was.
One of the shortcuts counterfeiters take is using the same undated side (usually the reverse) in combination with many dated sides (usually obverses). The U.S. Mint has rarely used the same undated dies from one year to the next, and the Mint's dies usually were in exemplary condition and did not show the common repeating defects evident on counterfeiters' dies.
The transfer method is most commonly used to counterfeit gold coins. A few silver counterfeits also have been made this way, as have some fake copper coins. Interestingly, while entire date sets of counterfeit Indian Head quarter eagles, half eagles, and eagles have been seen, relatively few pre-1840 gold counterfeits exist. When they do appear, they generally are limited to certain dates.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
This die struck counterfeit of a 1909-S VDB cent was published by ANACS in the February 1982 issue of The Numismatist, and is published in Counterfeit Detection Volume II, ©1988 American Numismatic Association, page 37. In that volume this very deceptive struck counterfeit is called "one of the most dangerous and deceptive counterfeits ever produced in any coinage series."