Is this shady or common practice?
QuarterCollector
Posts: 1,384 ✭
Quick background before the question.
I had purchased from a prominent auction house (don't want to name names since they have never done me wrong) a 1925 SLQ graded MS65 FH by NGC. I had the coin sent directly to PCGS for a cross since all of my SLQs are PCGS graded. The coin came back ungradeded due to "Altered Surface". I immediately contacted the auction house who offered me a refund (very nice of them since the 7 day return policy had expired). It has been approx 6 days since I returned the coin.
Today I am searching their site and I find the same coin I had returned for "Altered Surface" up for auction with no mention of the discrepancy. I know that PCGS claim is only an opinion, however, their company seems to be a lot stricter when it comes to grading. The coins graded by them seem to sell for more $$$ then ones graded by NGC. Therefor, I would think that their opinion would count.
My question, is relisting the coin with no mention of the discrepancy common practice? Or do you feel it is shady?
I had purchased from a prominent auction house (don't want to name names since they have never done me wrong) a 1925 SLQ graded MS65 FH by NGC. I had the coin sent directly to PCGS for a cross since all of my SLQs are PCGS graded. The coin came back ungradeded due to "Altered Surface". I immediately contacted the auction house who offered me a refund (very nice of them since the 7 day return policy had expired). It has been approx 6 days since I returned the coin.
Today I am searching their site and I find the same coin I had returned for "Altered Surface" up for auction with no mention of the discrepancy. I know that PCGS claim is only an opinion, however, their company seems to be a lot stricter when it comes to grading. The coins graded by them seem to sell for more $$$ then ones graded by NGC. Therefor, I would think that their opinion would count.
My question, is relisting the coin with no mention of the discrepancy common practice? Or do you feel it is shady?
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Comments
edited to say: please don't bam me for saying that!
and a link to the coin in question
in order to get the forum member opinions
why would the auction house care
unless they have something to hide
and that would be important for the forum to know as well
you are only reporting what has happened
you are not giving us insider information
unless you are an owner of the auction house
it also shows their return policy in a favorable light
<< <i>I think you should name the auction house
and a link to the coin in question
in order to get the forum member opinions
why would the auction house care
unless they have something to hide
and that would be important for the forum to know as well
you are only reporting what has happened
you are not giving us insider information
unless you are an owner of the auction house
it also shows their return policy in a favorable light >>
I've only been in this hobby for about a year. With the amount of enjoyment I have had collecting Id love to make this a fulltime job. So, to answer your question I dont own the auction house. I just didnt want to name names because I am new and didnt want to get blacklisted. Dont worry its not a Ebay auction it is one of the big 3 to 5 auction houses.
<< <i>I think its a bit shady to buy a coin and return it because it didn't cross. Sounds a lot like all those people who get bashed for buying mint products and returning the ones that dont 70 >>
He had a legit reason for wanting to return the coin. If it had come back as DNC with no comment then thats a horse of a different color.
<< <i>I'm very surprised the auction house accepted your return. >>
So was I. Thats why I dont what to do them wrong. I was just courious if it was common practice. BTW, I cant wait to get that 1834 Bust Quarter I just bought off of you.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think its a bit shady to buy a coin and return it because it didn't cross. Sounds a lot like all those people who get bashed for buying mint products and returning the ones that dont 70 >>
He had a legit reason for wanting to return the coin. >>
It's an interesting case.
What if the coin only crossed to P64? Would that have been a legit reason for returning it?
What if the OP sent the coin to CAC and they refused to sticker it? Would that have been a legit reason for returning it?
What if the OP received the coin and disagreed with the NGC grade? Would that have been a legit reason for returning it?
<< <i>
<< <i>I think its a bit shady to buy a coin and return it because it didn't cross. Sounds a lot like all those people who get bashed for buying mint products and returning the ones that dont 70 >>
He had a legit reason for wanting to return the coin. If it had come back as DNC with no comment then thats a horse of a different color. >>
Thank you... I would never consider attempting to return a coin if the grade didn't cross. Grading is definitely a matter of opinion. Being doctored is a different situation.
this is not secret information you are divulging
unless they asked you not to
and I agree that it was very good of them to accept the return
they may have accepted the return because they think
they can get more for the coin
and it may have been their coin to start with
becasue it didn't cross.
I don't think an auction would send a coin to a grading service insted of the winner.
Their job is to sell the coin, not babysit some cross over zelot.
What about the consigner ? The auction does not own the coin.
<< <i>What about the consigner ? The auction does not own the coin. >>
The auction house may very well own the coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think its a bit shady to buy a coin and return it because it didn't cross. Sounds a lot like all those people who get bashed for buying mint products and returning the ones that dont 70 >>
He had a legit reason for wanting to return the coin. >>
It's an interesting case.
What if the coin only crossed to P64? Would that have been a legit reason for returning it?
What if the OP sent the coin to CAC and they refused to sticker it? Would that have been a legit reason for returning it?
What if the OP received the coin and disagreed with the NGC grade? Would that have been a legit reason for returning it? >>
No, IMO your beef would then be with NGC.
Three things stood out about this.
1. The auction house is a whole lot luckier than I was.
2. BB on one day can be a slab the next day.
3. A slab one day can be a BB the next day.
I too am surprised you got a return on that coin. That would indicate it's your first time and they do value keeping you on long term or the house did indeed own the coin and they'll just try it again. I would agree that any one particular slab grade is just an opinion. But I disagree with those coins sent in say 3-10 times where the single highest grade achieved is the "true or market grade." A coin grading 64 eight times, 63 once, and 65 once, is not a MS65 imo. That coin is not a 65 nor a 63...just a solid MS64.
roadrunner
<< <i>I sent 6 formerly BB's coins to a top 5 auction house to auction off as raw and take my chances that other bidder would see the positive things I saw. Unknown to me the auction house sent all of the coins in to top tier TPG's and got decent grades on them. One gold coin that had been BB'd twice ended up as a 66! (it orig came out of a top tier 64 holder). Not all of these coins have obvious problems and were not that much different from what is usually seen in holders. But the fact remained is that I got BB's and the auction house got slabs - on their first try.
Three things stood out about this.
1. The auction house is a whole lot luckier than I was.
2. BB on one day can be a slab the next day.
3. A slab one day can be a BB the next day.
I too am surprised you got a return on that coin. That would indicate it's your first time and they do value keeping you on long term or the house did indeed own the coin and they'll just try it again. I would agree that any one particular slab grade is just an opinion. But I disagree with those coins sent in say 3-10 times where the single highest grade achieved is the "true or market grade." A coin grading 64 eight times, 63 once, and 65 once, is not a MS65 imo. That coin is not a 65 nor a 63...just a solid MS64.
roadrunner >>
Yes.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm surprised the auction house didn't tell you to pound sand.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Grading is definitely a matter of opinion. Being doctored is a different situation. >>
I don't think it's that easy. Some doctoring will be slam dunk definite and some will be a matter of opinion.
<< <i><< Grading is definitely a matter of opinion. Being doctored is a different situation. >>
I don't think it's that easy. Some doctoring will be slam dunk definite and some will be a matter of opinion >>
And sometimes the "doctoring" exists only during the six seconds the grader looks at the coin.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I'm surprised the auction house didn't tell you to pound sand. >>
Maybe he was a good customer and they wanted to keep his business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Similar to my example above where a gold $10 Lib went 64, BB, BB, 66, Russ' example doesn't really have a single defined grade either:
64RB, DNC, BB, 65BN.
Bottom line is what is the real grade of those 2 coins above?
Are the coins that tough to grade right or consistently in 4 tries?
It made me very uneasy when a gold coin came back BB'd twice.
And at that point it was the "grade" after 2 out of 3 submissions.
That was a signal that there was something I must have missed and to move on. I much prefer to own coins where the vast majority of "eyes" see it one way. This is what the TPG's get paid to do.
roadrunner
Read my post in this thread. (about 5 up from the bottom)
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
What I would rather see, is the auction house either submitting again to PCGS, or have NGC do a review of the coin to see if they see altered surfaces. JMHO
<< <i>I think its a bit shady to buy a coin and return it because it didn't cross. Sounds a lot like all those people who get bashed for buying mint products and returning the ones that dont 70 >>
I agree. That coin came exactly as advertised, and the buyer knows darned well that not every coin is going to cross. Would he have wondered about shady dealings if the coin had upgraded at PCGS?
NGC dealers received a registered letter from John Albanese about 10 years ago documenting how
10 coins in PCGS slabs were purchased from David Hall's firm, NGC then crossed them over to NGC slabs
with the same grade, submitted them to PCGS for crossover, and only about half crossed.
Shameful but probably true. And the higher the grade goes, the less chance of crossing.
But then again, with an average NGC cross rate of 30-40%, reaching 50% is pretty darn good
roadrunner