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One possible solution to the fake slab problem
CoinAuctionsHelp
Posts: 515
I think it's time for NGC, PCGS, ICG, ANACS and any other legitimate slabbing companies to come together will all the dealers, auctions houses, and ebay. So they can come up with software that tracks the sales of all label numbers, and this would be stored in a computer data base. When the computer picks up on a certain label number that was sold it would know what company sold it and to whom.
If a label number has sold on ebay then the same label is sold by Hertitage then it would through up a red flag, and both companies can be contacted, and the seller and winner by email or phone to check out the purchase. Since this doesn't happen often, if very rarely in the near future, it would not be that much of a hassle. Even bidders who buy slabbed coins can opt into the program to protect themselves.
I just don't see any other way that can't be duplicated besides forming a network of buyers, dealers, grading services and auction sellers. And it might end up becoming a mandatory network to buy and sell slabbed coins.
If a label number has sold on ebay then the same label is sold by Hertitage then it would through up a red flag, and both companies can be contacted, and the seller and winner by email or phone to check out the purchase. Since this doesn't happen often, if very rarely in the near future, it would not be that much of a hassle. Even bidders who buy slabbed coins can opt into the program to protect themselves.
I just don't see any other way that can't be duplicated besides forming a network of buyers, dealers, grading services and auction sellers. And it might end up becoming a mandatory network to buy and sell slabbed coins.
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Most collectors value their privacy and won't go along with this. This best way to avoid fake slabs would be for the TPG's to have a photo data base of all the coins they slab. When you buy a slabbed coin, go to their web site and compare the pic to the coin. >>
While I dont agree with the OP I agree with the photo database.
You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.
Im not suggesting to put this in every slab.....but it should be optional from PCGS
Tracking and scanning is all around us, and as safe and private as you think your life is, it's not. If anyone of you was a murder suspect the FBI would find out more about you then you know yourself.
Do you honestly beleive that all collectors want their collections private then why can I check Heritage and see who purchased coins and for what amount? Why do collectors this their coins in a PCGS registry set? Anyway, collectors who opt into the program can have a unique user name, and none would know who DoubleDie, From Dallas, Texas is.
<< <i>All we need is Big Brother watching every move. >>
omg your so right.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>Most collectors value their privacy and won't go along with this. This best way to avoid fake slabs would be for the TPG's to have a photo data base of all the coins they slab. When you buy a slabbed coin, go to their web site and compare the pic to the coin. >>
If you are famaliar with Paypal/Ebays security key manafactured by Verisign, this tech could be built the slad in a discreet manner.
The six digit random code need not change every 30 seconds but every 2 or three days, this would allow internet sales of the item to be verified by entering the certificate number and the random code at the TPG's website. Photo data base can be hard to match for sellers that do not have proper photographing for their auctions. The seller could list the code with the auction. Duping the slab and certificate number would do forgers no good as a new code would generate in 2 or 3 days meaning they can not sell the fake slab. It would be better to know prior to purchase instead of after that the ceritified coin is legit or not.
The design of the id key would be best to allow access for battery replacement.
The photo data base has a weakness with higer grade coins in regards to many buyers locating the sublte imperfections. Also some coin's toning may change, casuing doubt or confusion with some buyer.
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<< <i>The transactions are not private unless they buy from a small town dealer that doesn't give receipts. Plus, if you don't disclose your holdings to the IRS at the end of the year, your violating the law. If car fax works, then this will work as good.
Do you honestly beleive that all collectors want their collections private then why can I check Heritage and see who purchased coins and for what amount? Why do collectors this their coins in a PCGS registry set? Anyway, collectors who opt into the program can have a unique user name, and none would know who DoubleDie, From Dallas, Texas is. >>
Please clue me into what the IRS has to do with a hobby? >>
A report to the IRS (on a tax return) is only required when a coin is sold for a profit. They want their minimum 28%. Or if a transaction falls under the rules of the "suspicious transaction".
In reality many of these transactions are done for currency, and the government is unaware of the occurrence. I don't know from actual observation or experience of course, just my guess.
There would not be any confusion on high grade coin and coins that tone. If the label matches then that's the coin. It's only a method of tracking the sale of numbers, the city and state so the coin label number, if duplicated by counterfeiters, and sold it will raise a red flag, and can be looked into, and proper businesses contacted. I would opt into this program, because privacy means very little when your losing hundreds, if not thousands, or even millions, in some cases.
It would be very similar to identy theft protection. It works, and so could this. If you don't want the protection then you don't have to opt in. But the label numbers still need tracked so duplicate labels can be identified. All it would require is a scan of the label from the coin outlets.
will only work on .0000001% of all graded coins. what about faking a higher grade on a common coin? ex: ms69 sacagawea
Also like so many proposals, what about the millions of legacy slabs? Who pays to reholder them? What happens to the liquidity of the coins in old holders?
<< <i>Most collectors value their privacy and won't go along with this. This best way to avoid fake slabs would be for the TPG's to have a photo data base of all the coins they slab. When you buy a slabbed coin, go to their web site and compare the pic to the coin. >>
<< <i>If you have a coin collection then it's considered an asset, and all assets have to reported to the IRS. >>
I don't mean no disrespect, but I don't know where you got the idea that "all assets have to be reported to the IRS"
Holding an asset is not a "taxable event" under USC Title 26 (the Internal Revenue Code). On what line of your return, or on which form, do you report assets? There is none.
The government is invasive of our privacy enough, without any exaggeration. No disrespect intended.
Saying that someone would hack into the service is ridiculas. If buying and paying for a coin online can be hacked easier then a system that protects the consumer as much as the identity protection agencies.
Also, I plainly stated, nothing you due that involves purchases is secret, unless you give a friend or stranger money for goods in a personal sale. Also, no one's address or name need to enter the equation. So privacy isn't an issue.
If you use a chip in the slab, it will be the same thing, and don't think the chinese won't find away of replicating it. Instead of thinking of all the ways this couldn't work, why not come up with some solutions to protect our hobby? You can say it won't work all day long, but if you don't have a better solution to the then why bother?
<< <i>I don't take any of the posts as disrespect. I merely offered an idea for discussion.
Saying that someone would hack into the service is ridiculas. If buying and paying for a coin online can be hacked easier then a system that protects the consumer as much as the identity protection agencies.
Also, I plainly stated, nothing you due that involves purchases is secret, unless you give a friend or stranger money for goods in a personal sale. Also, no one's address or name need to enter the equation. So privacy isn't an issue.
If you use a chip in the slab, it will be the same thing, and don't think the chinese won't find away of replicating it. Instead of thinking of all the ways this couldn't work, why not come up with some solutions to protect our hobby? You can say it won't work all day long, but if you don't have a better solution to the then why bother? >>
First off PCGS would have to agree to reholder all of my coins for FREE and AS IS [meaning rattlers will come back as rattlers with a microchip
or whatever tracking device implanted in them] and I'm pretty sure that aint gonna happen.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>I don't take any of the posts as disrespect. I merely offered an idea for discussion.
Saying that someone would hack into the service is ridiculas. If buying and paying for a coin online can be hacked easier then a system that protects the consumer as much as the identity protection agencies.
Also, I plainly stated, nothing you due that involves purchases is secret, unless you give a friend or stranger money for goods in a personal sale. Also, no one's address or name need to enter the equation. So privacy isn't an issue.
If you use a chip in the slab, it will be the same thing, and don't think the chinese won't find away of replicating it. Instead of thinking of all the ways this couldn't work, why not come up with some solutions to protect our hobby? You can say it won't work all day long, but if you don't have a better solution to the then why bother? >>
In my opinion, we trust TPG's too much and not ourselves.
I have found the chip the government put in my head very annoying - especially when the voices all talk at once.
<< <i>I, for one, would not want a chip in a slabbed coin I bought.
I have found the chip the government put in my head very annoying - especially when the voices all talk at once. >>
That's a better idea, put a chip in the head of all coin collectors, two chip implants for authorized dealers, one for buying, one for selling. Those without a chip in their heads will not be allowed to purchase coins and be reported to the IRS. Those without a seller chip, will not be allowed to sell coins and have to turn in all their Ferraris. The chips connect to the database to authenticate the slabs. Problem solved, I think...
/edit just kidding folks, just kidding, sarcasm doesn't always come across in pixels
If you are not will to learn then its kinda pointless having anytype of tracking systems especially if they are computerized as the only secure computer in existance is the one that is turned off. All others are fair game and the bigger the payoff the more that want to play.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>If you have a coin collection then it's considered an asset, and all assets have to reported to the IRS. >>
I don't mean no disrespect, but I don't know where you got the idea that "all assets have to be reported to the IRS"
Holding an asset is not a "taxable event" under USC Title 26 (the Internal Revenue Code). On what line of your return, or on which form, do you report assets? There is none.
The government is invasive of our privacy enough, without any exaggeration. No disrespect intended. >>
I wish the OP would clarify this.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If you have a coin collection then it's considered an asset, and all assets have to reported to the IRS. >>
I don't mean no disrespect, but I don't know where you got the idea that "all assets have to be reported to the IRS"
Holding an asset is not a "taxable event" under USC Title 26 (the Internal Revenue Code). On what line of your return, or on which form, do you report assets? There is none.
The government is invasive of our privacy enough, without any exaggeration. No disrespect intended. >>
I wish the OP would clarify this. >>
I wasn't trying to argue tax laws, but the fact that sales are not as private as most think. The dealer has to report any gains or losses in sales each year, and if they get audited, then they must have receipts for the last three years. If you bought a coin before the audit, now the IRS knows about it, and it's on their computer.
Also, if you sell a coin for profit to a friend we are supposed to report the profit, but most of us don't. And that includes selling bullion or a collection to a dealer for profit. But each state has different laws on this. I used the wrong terminology in my statement.
My point is, if you buy from a dealer or auction company or with a check or credit card, its no longer private, and is recorded on a data base. If you pay cash under the table, of course that's private.
Another thing, my idea did not suggest a chip, someone didn't read my entire statement. I said someone from China would find away to duplicate the chips, so this might not work.
My suggestion would make it safer buying slab coins. How many of you like car fax reports? This would be the same thing.
<< <i>The Best Defense against counterfeit slabs is knowledge about what is occuring in the business and what to look for when these are detected.
If you are not will to learn then its kinda pointless having anytype of tracking systems especially if they are computerized as the only secure computer in existance is the one that is turned off. All others are fair game and the bigger the payoff the more that want to play. >>
I believe that in a couple of years, if not already, the fakes will look identical to the real thing, with the naked eye. If they put in real coins broken out from lower grades, there is no amount of learning that will be enough for the average collector, or small time dealer.
The problem with the photo database is that for some coins such as ultramoderns, almost all photos look identical, or the differences are so small it is very difficult to tell the difference from a photo. Also, only the PCGS Trueview photos are of much use. All the other companies either don't offer photos or their scans or photos are near useless.
Another problem with photos is the millions of legacy slabs. Who pays to photograph them? What safeguards will be needed to prevent counterfeits being sent in for the photo database? What kind of time and energy would be needed to verify the legacy slabs? Who pays for that? Going forward it seem a reasonable idea, but there are big cans of worms when talking about the coins already in holders.
The idea in the original post is a non-starter. I did not see a single person replying that thinks it can be implemented as stated, so I doubt the grading companies would even consider it. That's not to say it is a bad idea, but when 100% of customers surveyed have concerns or express out rage, a commercial company is not going that route.
It is unreasonable to think that any solution should be given to past or present customers for free. The TPGs have each numerous varities of slabs out there, no individual is forced to reholder these now nor in the future. Just not logical to expect reholding to be a free service when a new slab design is introduced.
The grading service that introduces the most difficult design to forge and have verified as legit will have a marketing advantage. Confidence in thier product is key. With the combination of so many sales done via the internet and high end moderns ,a system that is not totally detailed dependent would be at an advantage.
Again what percentage of buyers would find a photo comparission of a PF69DC and PF70DC usefull in determing if that is indeed a legit graded 1999 Delaware Silver Quarter. For some this opens up various arguements of importance of grade, being dependented on TPGs etc etc. Frankly for the TPGs the issue is buyer confidence for the purchase of their service. If there is no confidence that the slab and coin are legit then they will see a diminshing business model.
How would this impact the collecting envirnoment? I don't know for sure but I can guess from post in this forum that overall collectors/speculators don't seem to hold dealers/sellers in the highest regard now, so I don't think it would have a postive impact for the hobby.
If TPGs become irrelevant due to forgeries the newest collectors that are unfamilar still with the issues of fakes and doctored coins would be more vunlerable in the market place. With a greater chance of being burned even by slabbed coins the odds of the new collector developing a bad taste for the hobby increases and their likely hood of leaving the hobby increases.
If the certified coin holds no value in regards to buyer confidence that it is indeed a coin certified by PCGS or NGC, then of course for all those that love flipping modern coins that are graded 69s and 70s this would have a dramatic negative impact on the prices they most likely would be able to reap. In the eyes of some that may be a good thing, for flippers it surely would not be.
Anyway, to make it more difficult on counterfeiters, why not make a hologram label number that shows symbols for the numbers when looking straight at the slab, but when turned one way shows a set of numbers, and then turned another way it shows another different set of numbers. It would be symbols and dual numbers that can't be copied from just a picture.
For ebay sellers that sale slabs they would have enter both numbers before they can list in at auction. Ebay or any dealer can submit the numbers online, and the only responce from the grading service's data base would be authentic or fake, and no other details. Of course, some may want to verify all the information about the coin in in a holder, and this would need a solution.
This would not solve the older holder slabs from being copied, but if I had thousands or millions in my slabs then I would have them reholdered anyway. This all would start for this year and on. It doesn't solve the problem completely, but it would be a good start for the future.
Indigo printing?
Watermarks on label (in a clear slab) when held up to light?
Fine hairs in paper or special paper as used on currency?
Special inks with florescense when held to blacklight?
Mutiple paper labels(maybe 2 on each slab, each with special characteristics)?
fineline lettering and designs as used on currency?
Sorry if I repeated any prior suggestions.
(edited for spelling)
I take this personal, and so should all of us.