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1877 IHC ~ on the bay~ real or fake **it was relisted!!**UPDATE**

CoinMeisterCoinMeister Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
It is missing the key diagnostics that I am familiar with for this to be real! Looks fake to me.

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edited title
"What we are never changes, but who we are ... never stops changing."

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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭
    Note the lack of a shallow N reverse, meaning it's likely either a circulated proof or fake. Could be an altered 1879.
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    cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 8,078 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No die clash or shallow N- I say fake.
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
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    STONESTONE Posts: 15,275 ✭
    The second 7 in the date does not seem larger than the first and that makes my question its authenticity.

    good catch.
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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 25,053 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That would sure fool me. I don't collect IHCs so don't know what the diagnostic is to locate.
    Please enlighten me.

    Thanks,
    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>That would sure fool me. I don't collect IHCs so don't know what the diagnostic is to locate. >>

    Look at the lettering on the center of the reverse. Note that the 'N' in ONE is bold and fully struck up.

    All known business strike 1877 cents have a "shallow N" reverse where the bottom of the 'N' near the center of the coin is weakly struck. Here's mine:

    image

    Note the weakness in the lower half of the N. If a coin appears to be an 1877 and doesn't have this diagnostic, it's either a proof or a fake. I'm not convinced the second 7 in the date is kosher, so my suspicion is an altered date, probably an altered 1879.

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    UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd like to compare the sellers photo to a photo of a genuine Proof 1877. If the date placement matches the Proof issue, it could be a circulated Proof. Rick Snow where are you?? (I know, Long Beach)
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 14,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1877 PR65RB

    image
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭
    As I look at it more, I think I can rule out an altered 1879. I remember now that an altered 1879 would show a "nub" at the base of the '1' digit, which this coin doesn't exhibit.
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    UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The 8 in the date of the Proof is completely different. I now lean toward altered date. (But darn well done)
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
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    cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 8,078 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also think the one in the auction looks too 'mushy' to be a proof, even for a circulated one.
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
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    FilthyBrokeFilthyBroke Posts: 3,518 ✭
    You aren't thinking about buying, are you?




    It's definitely not a circulation strike...


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    CoinMeisterCoinMeister Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭
    not a buyer!! Just an interesting catch. Wondering if I should notify the seller?

    "What we are never changes, but who we are ... never stops changing."
  • Options
    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The second 7 in the date does not seem larger than the first and that makes my question its authenticity. >>

    The fact that it's a raw key date on eBay is what makes me question its authenticity... image
  • Options
    FilthyBrokeFilthyBroke Posts: 3,518 ✭
    There have been proofs found in circulation.....I'd wait for Rick's take on it though.

    Too much at risk. The mintmark looks right to me, but what do I know?image
  • Options
    FilthyBrokeFilthyBroke Posts: 3,518 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The second 7 in the date does not seem larger than the first and that makes my question its authenticity. >>

    The fact that it's a raw key date on eBay is what makes me question its authenticity... image >>




    Absolutely... I'm sure it'll sell for a grand, at least, but I wouldn't want to be the one finding out that it's fake after the fact..image
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    FilthyBrokeFilthyBroke Posts: 3,518 ✭
    Hey, Ziggy, got an obverse pic of yours?
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Hey, Ziggy, got an obverse pic of yours? >>

    Here you go:

    image
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    FilthyBrokeFilthyBroke Posts: 3,518 ✭
    Seller's pic-
    image


    An old one of mine, sold last fall-
    image



    You decide, between Ziggy's and my pic, and the seller's, I'm not picking up on anything odd.
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭
    This item has been pulled.
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    CoinMeisterCoinMeister Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This item has been pulled. >>



    As it should have been.... I sent a little note to the seller letting them know my concerns.
    "What we are never changes, but who we are ... never stops changing."
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>As it should have been.... I sent a little note to the seller letting them know my concerns. >>

    It comes back as "Invalid Item" now, which means it was pulled by eBay, not the seller.
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    CoinMeisterCoinMeister Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i> It comes back as "Invalid Item" now, which means it was pulled by eBay, not the seller. >>




    Glad the item is not available. Someone could have had a very bad experience due to lack of knowledge. Always buy this coin certified! IMHO
    "What we are never changes, but who we are ... never stops changing."
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Always buy this coin certified! IMHO >>

    Pretty much. I'd be comfortable buying it raw from Rick Snow, but he'd be at the top of a VERY short list where this date is concerned.
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    CoinMeisterCoinMeister Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭
    The seller relisted!!! image

    New Link


    and he/she added in the description, "THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE AUCTION, AND ALL SALES ARE CONSIDERED FINAL." :image
    "What we are never changes, but who we are ... never stops changing."
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    nencoinnencoin Posts: 1,328 ✭✭✭✭
    There's one diagnostic for a proof 1877 cent that this coin fails to meet: the E in CENT has not been recut at center and bottom stems. His images seem clear enough to determine that. Here's an authentic circulated proof coin (note the obvious recutting:

    image
    Northeastcoin.com
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    rgCoinGuyrgCoinGuy Posts: 7,478 ✭


    << <i>The seller relisted!!! image

    New Link


    and he/she added in the description, "THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE AUCTION, AND ALL SALES ARE CONSIDERED FINAL." :image >>



    He does guarantee the coin to be genuine though. The problem is, if he isn't honest, the coin is already over his paypal protection level.
    imageQuid pro quo. Yes or no?
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    CoinMeisterCoinMeister Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i> if he isn't honest >>



    You can leave the "if" out of this phrase.

    The seller lists this coin, calls it genuine, I send a note to them, the original auction is pulled (for whatever reason) after I sent the note, then the seller reissues with "THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE AUCTION, AND ALL SALES ARE CONSIDERED FINAL" to the description?!

    Anyone bidding on this coin ~ Caveat emptor ~
    "What we are never changes, but who we are ... never stops changing."
  • Options
    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The seller lists this coin, calls it genuine, I send a note to them, the original auction is pulled (for whatever reason) after I sent the note, then the seller reissues with "THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE AUCTION, AND ALL SALES ARE CONSIDERED FINAL" to the description?! >>

    You're leaving out the qualifier:

    OTHER THAN GUARANTEES STATED, THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE AUCTION, AND ALL SALES ARE CONSIDERED FINAL.

    Presumably the "stated" guarantee being referred to is with respect to authenticity.

    I parse this as meaning they will ONLY accept returns for the reasons specified in the guarantee. Still, the guarantee is still vague: How long does the buyer have to determine it's a fake? Does it have to be returned in the original holder?
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    cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 8,078 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He probably bought it thinking it was real, and after being contacted by several people now has his doubts, and wants to pass along to some other unsuspecting person. Further proof that you should never buy a key date on eBay unless it's certified by a reputable company.
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
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    mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 7,336 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This could be a die-struck counterfeit since it doesn't have the diagnostics present for genuine 1877 business strikes.The date looks "too good" to me to call it an altered date but I think its a mistake to underestimate the skill of these modern day forgers,too.

    If the seller thinks its real he should send to a TPG and let them decide. ANACS would be a good choice.

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    FilthyBrokeFilthyBroke Posts: 3,518 ✭


    << <i>If the seller thinks its real he should send to a TPG and let them decide. ANACS would be a good choice. >>





    I would love to see this suggested to the seller, and hear the string of excuses as to why that ain't happenin'.
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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 25,053 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK, I'm learning here and that's good for an old dog!

    What I see, now that I've been educated, are two areas of concern.
    1: the one in the date has a left base tail that is much too short.
    2: also the termination of the bust, lower left below the necklace, is more rounded on the sellers and more
    pointed on the real ones.
    3: I see the N and E concerns.

    great thread,
    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    FilthyBrokeFilthyBroke Posts: 3,518 ✭
    I was always told to look for the weak 'N' on the reverse, and the last '7' on the date should be dropped a bit.


    Added pics of both sides of an authenticated 1877-


    image
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    EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is definitely an altered date (from a 1879). I contacted the seller as many of you did. I said he should not attempt to sell it on eBay anymore.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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    nencoinnencoin Posts: 1,328 ✭✭✭✭
    Wow - still listed for sale. I know I contacted eBay about it over a week ago, and I'm sure other folks here did too.
    Northeastcoin.com
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    coindudeonebaycoindudeonebay Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    The part I like is that he gives closeups, but not of the date. What's up with that?
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    WalmannWalmann Posts: 2,806 ✭
    The seller should at least throw in the egg roll that came with this coin.

    Also love those seller such as this that GUARANTEE authenic, but all sales are final, no returns.
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    CoinMeisterCoinMeister Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is definitely an altered date (from a 1879). I contacted the seller as many of you did. I said he should not attempt to sell it on eBay anymore. >>



    Thanks Rick! I hope seller pulls his auction. The poor folks bidding on it are in for a VERY rude awakening. CAVEAT EMPTOR!
    "What we are never changes, but who we are ... never stops changing."
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    mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 7,336 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is definitely an altered date (from a 1879).

    Seems like ebay should be paying attention to the expert on this series.I must say those 7's look good to me although the second one appears to be high.If I didn't know about the diagnostics it would fool me based on what I'm seeing in the images.Again,this seller needs to get his coin authenticated.

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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 12,181 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good catch, good thread. Like Coindude, I also wondered why he had multiple close up views of the reverse, but none of the critical date. I'm guessing he knows exactly what he has....
    Successful BST transactions with 177 members. breakdown, scotty1419, mattniss, bigjpst, onlyroosies, Manorcourtman, guitarwes, Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
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    CoinMeisterCoinMeister Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭
    The relisted item was pulled with less than 2 hours to go. It's last bid was over $1,700! The last bidder should count their blessings this item was pulled. Hopefully the seller will admit to themselves what they have and not try to sell this altered "coin" as authentic to anyone in the future.
    "What we are never changes, but who we are ... never stops changing."
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    Tvac897Tvac897 Posts: 1,478
    I think it looks fake.
    -Rome is Burning

    image

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