Do we, as collectors, owe a debt of gratitude to high end dealers, who create a market for very rare
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
Let’s face it-- any dealer can handle common date Morgan dollars or pop top statehood quarters. Those coins, though collectible, are not excessively rare, and there is certainly no shortage of them.
On the other hand, there are many coins that are in the rarified atmosphere of “one of a few known”, unique specimens, or items that are so esoteric, that not too many people can even identify them. For these items, the most exclusive of the exclusive coin dealers handle and make a market for these coins.
When thinking of these exclusive dealers, two immediately come to mind-- Rare Coin Wholesalers and Dr. Kagin’s coin firm. Everyone knows that Rare Coin Wholesalers deals in very, very rare items. The firm has the financial clout to purchase excessively rare coins, and make a market for them. Not too many dealers can deal in coins like this due to the prices of the items.
Similarly, Dr. Kagin in the world’s leading expert in territorial coins and other esoteric items. There are very few dealers in the world who can even identify the coins that Dr. Kagin can identify off the top of his head. Dr. Kagin identifies discovery specimens almost as easily as one can count extra leaves on corn cobs on Wisconsin quarters. He wrote the book on territorials (literally).
So do we, as collectors, owe a debt of gratitude to high end dealers, who create markets for extremely rare and esoteric items? Without these dealers, these coins would probably not even be identified, and would never be able to be enjoyed and collected.
On the other hand, there are many coins that are in the rarified atmosphere of “one of a few known”, unique specimens, or items that are so esoteric, that not too many people can even identify them. For these items, the most exclusive of the exclusive coin dealers handle and make a market for these coins.
When thinking of these exclusive dealers, two immediately come to mind-- Rare Coin Wholesalers and Dr. Kagin’s coin firm. Everyone knows that Rare Coin Wholesalers deals in very, very rare items. The firm has the financial clout to purchase excessively rare coins, and make a market for them. Not too many dealers can deal in coins like this due to the prices of the items.
Similarly, Dr. Kagin in the world’s leading expert in territorial coins and other esoteric items. There are very few dealers in the world who can even identify the coins that Dr. Kagin can identify off the top of his head. Dr. Kagin identifies discovery specimens almost as easily as one can count extra leaves on corn cobs on Wisconsin quarters. He wrote the book on territorials (literally).
So do we, as collectors, owe a debt of gratitude to high end dealers, who create markets for extremely rare and esoteric items? Without these dealers, these coins would probably not even be identified, and would never be able to be enjoyed and collected.
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
Edited to add: I should say, many dealers are very nice. I have great relationships with a number of dealers. I know they're not ALL out to get every last drop of profit out of me, but still I don't find the need to "thank" them for carrying a certain coin. My two cents.
But that's not to say that they're not valuable members of the community.
Doh! Edited to replace 'there' with 'their'.
Just as in any other occupation there are those that are adequate, inadequate and those that excel at what they do. To those that excel in their given occupation a thanks is always owed by those that utilize their service/help.
For those that are buyers of rare and unique coins that utilize these gentleman's talents, they are the ones that should be giving thanks if their efforts so warrant it. Having not dealt with either I can not say.
I gave great thanks to the EMTs that assisted my daughter years, they excelled at their jobs.
Years laters my daughter received a very visible tatoo. The tatoo artist has not and will not receive any thanks from myself.
Edited for typos.
<< <i>No. >>
Very well said and most succinct.
Perhaps we owe some gratitude to those who are expert in their
field whether that's rare states quarters or rare 18th century coins
but these folks are already capitalizing on their expertise.
Do we really owe gratitude to physicists and others who are working
to improve our lives and the race? I would suggest that we're lucky
to have such people since it beats swinging in the trees but work is
usually it's own reward and such people are usually well compensat-
ed financially.
"do we, as collectors, owe a debt of gratitude" for the higher prices? Ummm.....HELL NO!
Why would I want to thank anyone for marketing and driving the prices up?
I could care less if many people, or few people, collect what I like. And, I am fine with discovering things without someone marketing them.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Dealers don't make markets collectors do.Colletors can servive with out dealers. Dealers can not servive without collectors. So the answer is NO. >>
"retail" dealers cannot survive well without collectors, wholesalers who sell to retail and other dealers can still make a living with a smaller collector base. However, I think i "owe" zero to dealers as a whole.
I think we owe "dealers" who deal in ultra-high grade moderns even less. They buy them from the Mint like everyone else, slab them, and market them like they are rare and won't ever been seen again. That has done little for the collectors at large besides bringing in more speculators, driving the prices up for everyone else and setting up a house of cards of 'low pop' moderns that won't stay that way.
There is a lot to learn with this information super highway we're on and we learn it so much faster nowadays.
In closing, let's bow our heads and thank Al Gore
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>So do we, as collectors, owe a debt of gratitude to high end dealers, who create markets for extremely rare and esoteric items? Without these dealers, these coins would probably not even be identified, and would never be able to be enjoyed and collected. >>
No. They have done nothing for the hobby other than hyping these coins and making them unaffordable to the vast majority of collectors while making themselves rich.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Having said that, who really creates the market other than those that are willing to pay the price? Perhaps those that were second in the bidding
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>So do we, as collectors, owe a debt of gratitude to high end dealers, who create markets for extremely rare and esoteric items? Without these dealers, these coins would probably not even be identified, and would never be able to be enjoyed and collected. >>
No. They have done nothing for the hobby other than hyping these coins and making them unaffordable to the vast majority of collectors while making themselves rich. >>
Can I take it that you will not be chipping in for the fruit basket?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So do we, as collectors, owe a debt of gratitude to high end dealers, who create markets for extremely rare and esoteric items? Without these dealers, these coins would probably not even be identified, and would never be able to be enjoyed and collected. >>
No. They have done nothing for the hobby other than hyping these coins and making them unaffordable to the vast majority of collectors while making themselves rich. >>
Can I take it that you will not be chipping in for the fruit basket?
I think I am tired from my meeting, because I am finding this fruit basket and Omaha steak comment hilarious.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Can I take it that you will not be chipping in for the fruit basket? >>
RYK:
For the record, I had something else mind for the "noveau riche/jet set" status of our dealer friends... a fruit basket or even Omaha Steaks is so yesterday and could possibly be viewed as a mediocre gesture instead of the thoughtful gift as intended. The downside is huge... your thoughtful fruit basket may have just cost you an early opportunity at that great coin that merely surfaces every ten years because you should have provided a gift certificate at the new cutting edge restaurant at the location of the ANA that everyone will be talking about... Think Big, act Bigger and the best coins will come your way...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
But a debt of gratitude? For creating a market? Get a grip on yourself boy.
CG
NOT AT ALL
NEVER
you get the idea
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>No. They have done nothing for the hobby other than hyping these coins and making them unaffordable to the vast majority of collectors while making themselves rich. >>
Can I take it that you will not be chipping in for the fruit basket? >>
RYK:
For the record, I had something else mind for the "noveau riche/jet set" status of our dealer friends... a fruit basket or even Omaha Steaks is so yesterday and could possibly be viewed as a mediocre gesture instead of the thoughtful gift as intended. The downside is huge... your thoughtful fruit basket may have just cost you an early opportunity at that great coin that merely surfaces every ten years because you should have provided a gift certificate at the new cutting edge restaurant at the location of the ANA that everyone will be talking about... Think Big, act Bigger and the best coins will come your way...
Plus, judging from the last show I went to, I don't think dealers are eating a whole lot of fruit anyway. A candybar basket might be a better idea.
I hate to defend dealers
But....
You guys are wrong. There aren't many hobbies that are supported as well by the dealers as coin collecting is.
<< <i>Dealers don't make markets collectors do.Colletors can servive with out dealers. Dealers can not servive without collectors. So the answer is NO. >>
Dealers have survived past down markets when collectors have left the hobby. Many dealers are not affraid to inventory coins in slow markets waiting for the
day when the market turns around.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I think high-end coin dealers owe gratitude to widget collectors. Nobody starts off by handling ultra rarities. Less they forget, everybody has to start somewhere. >>
I agree.
<< <i>I hate to defend dealers
But....
You guys are wrong. There aren't many hobbies that are supported as well by the dealers as coin collecting is.
<< <i>Dealers don't make markets collectors do.Colletors can servive with out dealers. Dealers can not servive without collectors. So the answer is NO. >>
Dealers have survived past down markets when collectors have left the hobby. Many dealers are not affraid to inventory coins in slow markets waiting for the
day when the market turns around. >>
Elwood, he said high-end dealers who create a market. That isn't most dealers.
I think dealers are necessary. I think those that "create a market" are not.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
edit - need to use spelchek!
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
<< <i>It looks like Rare Coin Wholesalers requires your email just to view their inventory. That's either to harvest my info or to keep out the riff raff. In either case, not very "gratifying" IMO. >>
i agree, and with their move of recently hiring the disgraced former ANA Executive Director to be their new PR face, I'd say they could care less about looking like an honest and transparent company dedicated to the collector.
Also, being that they are considered to be the King of Crack-outs, they are purely profit driven in that they are most likely responsible for "making" a ton of say 65.8 coins into 62.1 coins, and thereby lining their pockets with tons more of collector money that can't tell the difference. Consider the theory that crack-out firms like these are given preferential treatment on their submissions, and the whole thing seems even more seedy.