Because someone asked and we needed to define what "exoneration" meant..........next question. As the OP I was ok with this thread dying. Mr. Eureka resurrected it. Funny thing about resurrected threads, more dirt usually shows up each time.
Roadrunner - The case you refer to was against Art Kagin, not Don Kagin. And in fairness to Art Kagin, who is no longer around to defend himself, I should point out that the ruling was in Art's favor. According to the court, Stern was not defrauded.
Mr. Eureka, you were around at that time, what say you about the business practices of that time? Please don't pull any punches. As I read the record the reason provided for Stern losing money was the grading change.....how stupid is that statement? You mean AK's coins didn't hold up under scrutiny and lost value overnight like a dollar debasement?.....and the judge bought it? What do you think? Was Stern defrauded? Ripped off? How many other Sterns' were part of the AK bankruptcy? How can you go bankrupt in a rising market? Usually you see that when market's start to tank. It's not a good sign when former clients come forward like this. It's not a matter of what happened imo, but only if you can provide a judge who knows nothing about the hobby, with substantial proof of fraud. When it walks, talks, smells, and looks like a duck, I usually go with my gut instinct....even if a court ruled otherwise. Anyone for loading up on ACG coins? That case was settled in ACG's favor.
So please explain to me how Mr. Stern lost money buying coins in one of the best rising markets ever from 1982-1987. He was obviously buying at the bottom from "seasoned" 30 year pros. What was DK's role during the 1980's with Kagin or was involved solely in his own business? For me, I start getting an itch when it comes to bankrupt coin dealers who come back to life. It's a fairly short and revered listing. There are some serious charter members out there doing business today.
No need for AK to defend himself as the legal record fully exonerated him on the Stern claim. The bankruptcy is what it is. My wallet doesn't care about what a judge decided, it only cares about how many bills are left in it. Obviously Mr. Stern had some concerns about the lack of bills left in his.
It would have been nice had a link to this story been cited at the point of resuscitation, just to give it context.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Mr. Eureka, you were around at that time, what say you about the business practices of that time? Please don't pull any punches.
Roadrunner:
If you're asking me if Art Kagin sold overgraded coins, the answer is "sometimes". Same as virtually all major dealers at the time.
Was Stern defrauded? Frankly, I don't know. I didn't see the coins, and I don't really understand the nature of this particular business relationship. (From the court documents, it was clearly more than a simple dealer/client relationship.)
Finally, if you're asking me if the fact that Art Kagin sometimes sold overgraded coins means Don Kagin knowingly fenced a stolen gold ingot, and that he also cheated John Gervasoni on the Specimen Mountain $20, I'll respond with a question of my own. Are you on drugs?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I only noticed this thread today. Up until this point, I have been silent on the subject of this case, but there are a few things that seem to need clarification here. The deal between John Gervasoni and Kagin's was the result of conversations between myself and John Gervasoni. Don Kagin did not become involved in the deal until after Gervasoni repudiated the deal, and the decision to rely on a perfected service lien (hold the coin) was made at the advice of an attorney. Any claims that Don Kagin's behavior in this situation was in any way unethical ignore the fact that it was not his behavior, it was mine.
That being said, I am proud of everything that I did in connection with this case. The research work that proved the coin to be specially struck was solid, and should have been the highlight of my numismatic year in 2006, rather than the headache that it became. Furthermore, I am proud of the way in which I conducted myself throughout the deal and the ensuing legal fiasco. I showed up, told the truth, and did not back down from the position that Kagin's had earned remuneration for my work, despite threats, lies and pressure from well-meaning, but ultimately misinformed people.
Don's conduct here was , in my opinion, exemplary. He stood behind me as an employee and as a friend - every step of the way - despite the fact that he was under tremendous professional and political pressure to do otherwise. Furthermore, he did his best to resolve this case amicably.
Anyone who has spleen to vent where this situation is concerned ought to acquaint themselves with the facts of the case before making any judgements about Don or Kagin's as a whole. The judge who heard the case did that and found in our favor - here is the transcript of her ruling for those of you who prefer espousing well-informed opinions:
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Fascinating reading - thanks for the update. Nice to see that JP is still active in the coin business.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
Mr. Kagin's involvement with the Manley bar always struck me as questionable for several reasons.
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?? it follows that he would at least be curious about how a normal coin shop owner would come into possession of an item like the one in question. i seem to remember that the two individuals, Kagin and Manley, were actually in each others company(or at least in attendance at Numismatic events at the same time) and nothing was ever said.
two things come to my mind:
1. don't ask, don't tell. 2. not guilty is certainly different from innocent.
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?
There were hundreds of ingots recovered from the wreck, and they have been widely distributed. In the past decade or so, many have been resold, some multiple times. It's impossible for anyone - even an expert - to know where they all are today.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mr. Kagin's involvement with the Manley bar always struck me as questionable for several reasons.
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?? it follows that he would at least be curious about how a normal coin shop owner would come into possession of an item like the one in question. i seem to remember that the two individuals, Kagin and Manley, were actually in each others company(or at least in attendance at Numismatic events at the same time) and nothing was ever said.
two things come to my mind:
1. don't ask, don't tell. 2. not guilty is certainly different from innocent.
First, the only information that he had concerning the original sale of the item was that the bar sold to a telephone bidder (and the person selling the bar represented that the bar's owner had bought several bars by telephone in the sale), and second, Dwight Manley bought and sold SSCA bars in competition with Kagin's - do you call competitors with business sensitive information? I actually witnessed some of the telephone calls around this deal, and I had no impression that Don thought there was anything fishy about it - I certainly didn't. It seemed like a collector's heirs were selling off his estate.
And again, why would he risk his reputation to make 10% on a brokerage deal?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
That was truly interesting. I think your assessment--that your work should have been an exciting part of 2006 for you but turned into a massive headache--is right on the money.
<< <i>Mr. Kagin's involvement with the Manley bar always struck me as questionable for several reasons.
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?? it follows that he would at least be curious about how a normal coin shop owner would come into possession of an item like the one in question. i seem to remember that the two individuals, Kagin and Manley, were actually in each others company(or at least in attendance at Numismatic events at the same time) and nothing was ever said.
two things come to my mind:
1. don't ask, don't tell. 2. not guilty is certainly different from innocent. >>
Hey, the owner of the bar didn't know where it was. How was a third party supposed to know where it was?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
And again, why would he risk his reputation to make 10% on a brokerage deal?
There are numerous dealer's in this hobby who trash their reputations for far less than that. Boy it's certainly hard to keep this thread off the front page each week.
<< <i>Mr. Kagin's involvement with the Manley bar always struck me as questionable for several reasons.
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?? >>
Al, I can tell you that there are fewer Gold Wilson Dollars (or insert any other R-9 SCD) than there are these rare gold ingots. Yet even the experts don't know where they all are.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Wish they had a Starbucks here in the convalescent center.............
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
C.H. Hey, have somebody bring you some Starbuck's - I have mine right now, not to make you jealous.
What I do not understand is how the coin held by D.K. could be held, him wanting 80K to "flip" the grade to specimen status. I mean that seems outrageous - he should get his ordinary handling fee for submitting to PCGS and if the dealer who gave it to him to do such was a decent fellow, throw him a tip of 1-2k, NOT EIGHTY!
Just because the other dealer made a good deal does not indicate to me that D.K. is somehow entitled to more....Experts at the British Museum, who are arguably as or probably more qualified charge ZERO for similar such or even more difficult confirmations...
Well, just an opinion.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>C.H. Hey, have somebody bring you some Starbuck's - I have mine right now, not to make you jealous.
What I do not understand is how the coin held by D.K. could be held, him wanting 80K to "flip" the grade to specimen status. I mean that seems outrageous - he should get his ordinary handling fee for submitting to PCGS and if the dealer who gave it to him to do such was a decent fellow, throw him a tip of 1-2k, NOT EIGHTY!
Just because the other dealer made a good deal does not indicate to me that D.K. is somehow entitled to more....Experts at the British Museum, who are arguably as or probably more qualified charge ZERO for similar such or even more difficult confirmations...
Well, just an opinion. >>
Would this make a good ethics column in the Numismatist?
<< <i>C.H. Hey, have somebody bring you some Starbuck's - I have mine right now, not to make you jealous.
What I do not understand is how the coin held by D.K. could be held, him wanting 80K to "flip" the grade to specimen status. I mean that seems outrageous - he should get his ordinary handling fee for submitting to PCGS and if the dealer who gave it to him to do such was a decent fellow, throw him a tip of 1-2k, NOT EIGHTY!
Just because the other dealer made a good deal does not indicate to me that D.K. is somehow entitled to more....Experts at the British Museum, who are arguably as or probably more qualified charge ZERO for similar such or even more difficult confirmations...
Well, just an opinion. >>
The difference being that the British Museum still gets paid, likely from public funding, whereas this reasearch is how Kagin's get's paid. Just getting a "tip" of 1-2 K likely doesn't pay for more than 2-3 weeks of time and I'd bet that the costs involved in researching this took longer than that with other expenses involved other than time.
So 80k pay for two weeks is reasonable. Do you honestly think it was other than to get his (DK's) assistance with the crossover? That is excessive at least to me, and would like to see the research that supports that two weeks of work was done...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
DK probably filled out a couple of legal pads with doodles while waiting for someone to answer the phone, then you have to wait for the recording to make your selection in spanish and english. Once you get the number for the party you want, you get the recording " sorry i missed your call, i will be out of the office today, but if you really need to reach me...." $80k is high but i was in a stupid lawsuit once where i could have walked away for $265 dollars. I was not wrong or at fault. I decided to fight on principle. Well $17,000 later in legal fees and more looming i decided to settle for 1/2 of the original $265. To some this is a fun hobby, to others this is big business.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Comments
<< <i>Why was this old thread given CPR? >>
Because the court case was ruled upon.
Roadrunner - The case you refer to was against Art Kagin, not Don Kagin. And in fairness to Art Kagin, who is no longer around to defend himself, I should point out that the ruling was in Art's favor. According to the court, Stern was not defrauded.
Mr. Eureka, you were around at that time, what say you about the business practices of that time? Please don't pull any punches. As I read the record the reason provided for Stern losing money was the grading change.....how stupid is that statement? You mean AK's coins didn't hold up under scrutiny and lost value overnight like a dollar debasement?.....and the judge bought it? What do you think? Was Stern defrauded? Ripped off? How many other Sterns' were part of the AK bankruptcy? How can you go bankrupt in a rising market? Usually you see that when market's start to tank. It's not a good sign when former clients come forward like this. It's not a matter of what happened imo, but only if you can provide a judge who knows nothing about the hobby, with substantial proof of fraud. When it walks, talks, smells, and looks like a duck, I usually go with my gut instinct....even if a court ruled otherwise. Anyone for loading up on ACG coins? That case was settled in ACG's favor.
So please explain to me how Mr. Stern lost money buying coins in one of the best rising markets ever from 1982-1987. He was obviously buying at the bottom from "seasoned" 30 year pros. What was DK's role during the 1980's with Kagin or was involved solely in his own business? For me, I start getting an itch when it comes to bankrupt coin dealers who come back to life. It's a fairly short and revered listing. There are some serious charter members out there doing business today.
No need for AK to defend himself as the legal record fully exonerated him on the Stern claim. The bankruptcy is what it is. My wallet doesn't care about what a judge decided, it only cares about how many bills are left in it. Obviously Mr. Stern had some concerns about the lack of bills left in his.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Why was this old thread given CPR? >>
Because the court case was ruled upon. >>
It would have been nice had a link to this story been cited at the point of resuscitation, just to give it context.
Roadrunner:
If you're asking me if Art Kagin sold overgraded coins, the answer is "sometimes". Same as virtually all major dealers at the time.
Was Stern defrauded? Frankly, I don't know. I didn't see the coins, and I don't really understand the nature of this particular business relationship. (From the court documents, it was clearly more than a simple dealer/client relationship.)
Finally, if you're asking me if the fact that Art Kagin sometimes sold overgraded coins means Don Kagin knowingly fenced a stolen gold ingot, and that he also cheated John Gervasoni on the Specimen Mountain $20, I'll respond with a question of my own. Are you on drugs?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That being said, I am proud of everything that I did in connection with this case. The research work that proved the coin to be specially struck was solid, and should have been the highlight of my numismatic year in 2006, rather than the headache that it became. Furthermore, I am proud of the way in which I conducted myself throughout the deal and the ensuing legal fiasco. I showed up, told the truth, and did not back down from the position that Kagin's had earned remuneration for my work, despite threats, lies and pressure from well-meaning, but ultimately misinformed people.
Don's conduct here was , in my opinion, exemplary. He stood behind me as an employee and as a friend - every step of the way - despite the fact that he was under tremendous professional and political pressure to do otherwise. Furthermore, he did his best to resolve this case amicably.
Anyone who has spleen to vent where this situation is concerned ought to acquaint themselves with the facts of the case before making any judgements about Don or Kagin's as a whole. The judge who heard the case did that and found in our favor - here is the transcript of her ruling for those of you who prefer espousing well-informed opinions:
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Note the judge remarking about bidding on one's own coin. Say it isn't so!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?? it follows that he would at least be curious about how a normal coin shop owner would come into possession of an item like the one in question. i seem to remember that the two individuals, Kagin and Manley, were actually in each others company(or at least in attendance at Numismatic events at the same time) and nothing was ever said.
two things come to my mind:
1. don't ask, don't tell.
2. not guilty is certainly different from innocent.
There were hundreds of ingots recovered from the wreck, and they have been widely distributed. In the past decade or so, many have been resold, some multiple times. It's impossible for anyone - even an expert - to know where they all are today.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?? it follows that he would at least be curious about how a normal coin shop owner would come into possession of an item like the one in question. i seem to remember that the two individuals, Kagin and Manley, were actually in each others company(or at least in attendance at Numismatic events at the same time) and nothing was ever said.
two things come to my mind:
1. don't ask, don't tell.
2. not guilty is certainly different from innocent.
First, the only information that he had concerning the original sale of the item was that the bar sold to a telephone bidder (and the person selling the bar represented that the bar's owner had bought several bars by telephone in the sale), and second, Dwight Manley bought and sold SSCA bars in competition with Kagin's - do you call competitors with business sensitive information? I actually witnessed some of the telephone calls around this deal, and I had no impression that Don thought there was anything fishy about it - I certainly didn't. It seemed like a collector's heirs were selling off his estate.
And again, why would he risk his reputation to make 10% on a brokerage deal?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
That was truly interesting. I think your assessment--that your work should have been an exciting part of 2006 for you but turned into a massive headache--is right on the money.
<< <i>Mr. Kagin's involvement with the Manley bar always struck me as questionable for several reasons.
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?? it follows that he would at least be curious about how a normal coin shop owner would come into possession of an item like the one in question. i seem to remember that the two individuals, Kagin and Manley, were actually in each others company(or at least in attendance at Numismatic events at the same time) and nothing was ever said.
two things come to my mind:
1. don't ask, don't tell.
2. not guilty is certainly different from innocent. >>
Hey, the owner of the bar didn't know where it was. How was a third party supposed to know where it was?
I wish I had thought of that.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
There are numerous dealer's in this hobby who trash their reputations for far less than that.
Boy it's certainly hard to keep this thread off the front page each week.
roadrunner
The differences between (some) public opinion and reality are fascinating.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
<< <i>Mr. Kagin's involvement with the Manley bar always struck me as questionable for several reasons.
if he is truly the pre-eminent expert in this very narrow field, i would presume that he knows who owns each of the existing bars. they are easily identified, correct?? >>
Al, I can tell you that there are fewer Gold Wilson Dollars (or insert any other R-9 SCD) than there are these rare gold ingots. Yet even the experts don't know where they all are.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
TD
Thank you for pointing that out and being better caffeinated than me.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
Hey, have somebody bring you some Starbuck's - I have mine right now, not to make you jealous.
What I do not understand is how the coin held by D.K. could be held, him wanting 80K to "flip" the grade to specimen status. I mean that seems outrageous - he should get his ordinary handling fee for submitting to PCGS and if the dealer who gave it to him to do such was a decent fellow, throw him a tip of 1-2k, NOT EIGHTY!
Just because the other dealer made a good deal does not indicate to me that D.K. is somehow entitled to more....Experts at the British Museum, who are arguably as or probably more qualified charge ZERO for similar such or even more difficult confirmations...
Well, just an opinion.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>C.H.
Hey, have somebody bring you some Starbuck's - I have mine right now, not to make you jealous.
What I do not understand is how the coin held by D.K. could be held, him wanting 80K to "flip" the grade to specimen status. I mean that seems outrageous - he should get his ordinary handling fee for submitting to PCGS and if the dealer who gave it to him to do such was a decent fellow, throw him a tip of 1-2k, NOT EIGHTY!
Just because the other dealer made a good deal does not indicate to me that D.K. is somehow entitled to more....Experts at the British Museum, who are arguably as or probably more qualified charge ZERO for similar such or even more difficult confirmations...
Well, just an opinion. >>
Would this make a good ethics column in the Numismatist?
<< <i>C.H.
Hey, have somebody bring you some Starbuck's - I have mine right now, not to make you jealous.
What I do not understand is how the coin held by D.K. could be held, him wanting 80K to "flip" the grade to specimen status. I mean that seems outrageous - he should get his ordinary handling fee for submitting to PCGS and if the dealer who gave it to him to do such was a decent fellow, throw him a tip of 1-2k, NOT EIGHTY!
Just because the other dealer made a good deal does not indicate to me that D.K. is somehow entitled to more....Experts at the British Museum, who are arguably as or probably more qualified charge ZERO for similar such or even more difficult confirmations...
Well, just an opinion. >>
The difference being that the British Museum still gets paid, likely from public funding, whereas this reasearch is how Kagin's get's paid. Just getting a "tip" of 1-2 K likely doesn't pay for more than 2-3 weeks of time and I'd bet that the costs involved in researching this took longer than that with other expenses involved other than time.
<< <i>if the parties had as many lawyers at the outsiet, as they have now, they wouldn't be where they are today. >>
An ounce of prevention....
Interesting read.
Well, just Love coins, period.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
The rest of the story... Andy and David, congrats on this deal/story that would make "Law and Order" or "24" boring...
During the auction of this piece - Oh there is so much more... but why bother - it's apparently over...