Huge fight over a presumed "stolen card"
torc
Posts: 341
0
torc
Posts: 341
torc
Posts: 341
Comments
Like reading a book and finding pages missing, after you get into it.
I will check back later.
The person who has the card in hand is screwed.
He is in possession of stolen property-he recieved stolen property...
the item should be returned to the original owner if he has proof it was his.
Back in the early 90's when I had a card store...
I bought a small collection of cards off a guy. 1 hour later I had the police at my store
telling me I bought cards from a stolen collection and I had to return them all. Cash I paid, I never got back!
collection and I had to return them all. Cash I paid, I never got back! "
//////////////////////////////////////////////////
That's how it works.
In the 1970s, I used to play it fast and loose with the loan/buy logs.
I had very frequent visits, but the cops were all cool.
Today, one screw-up and the licenses can all be pulled. In the past
few years, most of the cop visitors are young detectives that are
looking for missing/runaway utes, who might have pawned/sold
items for their escape; or, whose stuff might have been sold by
their abductor.
I am SUPER cautious, but there is always a risk. "Know your customer"
is a good policy, but new customers arrive daily. Tough business.
Yup, one must be very careful who they buy from.
Steve
Giovanni
In other words, if the buyer of the stolen goods didn't know it was stolen, they get to keep it and don't have to return it?
Mike
.........
HELLO ALL! <<<OWNER OF THE 06/07 The Cup DUAL NHL SHIELDS CROSBY/OVECHKIN 1/1.
- I am posting this message to clarify any "rumors" or "speculations" that have been going around. First and foremost - I am one of the top (not to mention highjest-paying) private collectors IN NORTH AMERICA! I am from Brooklyn, NY and have only aquired the card thru trade in StarBucks in Times Square in Manhattan at exactly 2:30-3:15pm eastern time April 3, 2008. The fellow who traded the card to me, goes by the name of "Mike Pearl" - not sure if that is his real name or not, but his phone number is 1-347-445-3746. He claimed to have aquired the card from a friend who purchased it on ebay about a year ago. I traded 15-20k worth of Crosby Rookies including the 15/99 and 24/87 I had on ebay in the same listing but ended the auction early for OBVIOUS reasons. Included in the PACKAGE TRADE was a BGS 10 SP Authentic Crosby (BGS serial number available upon request - I have scans of all the cards I own/owned) BGS 8.5 Crosby Cup Auto Patch RC /87 (purchased on ebay from buckybadgrs) BGS 8.5 for the Dual Shields Crosby/Ovechkin, and a 4 color Dwight Howard Exquisite Rookie /99
- In any case, I have no knowledge of any "stolen" card, especially of this calliber. And if it was stolen, why wouldnt the original owner simply hit the Buy it Now in my eBay store, aquire my personal information and have me arrested? I will tell you why - I am one of the most respected private collectors in North America! Little-Italian(Boston), Top-Notch-Cards (Canada), LogoPatchCards (NY), TheGoldenJew (California), VinnysCards (NJ) and literally hundreds, even thousands of the biggest dealers in the hobby will vouch for me, and my reputation as a buyer/seller/trader speaks for itself! I was at the Chicago Sun-Times National and heard nothing of the sort when over 3 days, 3,000 pairs of eyes saw a picture of the card (I needed a second and third opinion from some of the country's top dealers whom I have dealt with in the past to see if the trade was worth it) and now when I finally complete the trade and list the card in my store I get phone calls from across country asking me who I obtained the card from and how I came across it.
--- As For All You BROKE HATERS Out There and your so called "opinions" - You can shove them right up your A$$ez - Keep Dreaming and maybe one day your dreams will come true and you can have 1/8 the collection of mine! Next thing you know, My JSA and PSA/DNA Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig 1/1 Cuts are "stolen" or "fake" - you guys make me sick to my stomach
-PEOPLE I WOULD LIKE TO THANK.....
- Mark - Thanks for bringing this to my attention
- RoyTheGreatest - Yes it is true that i listed the quad patch Gretzky card as "Pack Fresh" but only because you listed it that way when you sold it to me, and seeing as how we are the only 2 owners of the card, we can still back up its condition to be MINT-GEM! It is still in the holder you sent it to me in about 3 years ago! - You know first hand I am a top-notch trader and you were paid instantly for the Gretzky. I would love to future buisness with you.
- Anyone, and I mean ANYONE is free to come and confront me IN PERSON about my collection if there are any more concerns/issues. I would be more than happy to PERSONALLY resolve any doubts or rumors - I am really not hard to find - I can be your best friend/trading partner, and I can also be your worst hobby nightmare - I am truly a genuine person to deal with, but do not take kindness for weakness - lets think rationally, if I have the ability to aquire such a collection (80% of which has never even been seen by the hobby public because of the ridiculous value unless they were at the Chicago Sun-Times National, or have watched ebay auctions 24/7 for the past 7 years!) would you not then agree that I have the legal resources to STOP these rumors? Lets not hate, put participate - I just do not undertsand as to why/how these bogus rumors get started, especially from a bunch of bums who cant even afford such pieces, who the hell are you guys to even have an opinion in the first place?!?!
But here is what I wonder....is the card actually "stolen"??? I mean, the original owner traded it for garbage. Yeah, he was lied to and screwed but he should have filed a lawsuit immediately if the guy wouldnt return his card. At least if he had filed a lawsuit, he could have prevented the card going out of the hands of the new owner.
The key though is knowledge if you knowingly buy a stolen item you are just as guilty as the person who stole it. If you bought it on good faith not knowing it was stolen then you still cannot keep the item, but your criminal liability is usually removed.
There was a local coin dealer a couple of years ago who had a guy come in and want to sell 2 rolex's the dealer knew they were stolen but offered the buyer 500 for both of them. He then turned around called the owner and offered to return them for a reward of 750 dollars. Can you say stupid... He is now serving the remainder of 10 years probation and has already served a year in prison. If he had just called the owner and told him that he just bought the watches from so and so for 500.00 and would like to be reimbursed for that he would have never gotten in trouble. It was when he tried to profit from it knowing he had stolen property that got him in trouble.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Nope.
In general, the last guy to have the stolen item loses it to its equitable owner.
In the instant case, the authorities were aware that the card was "stolen"
through an act of "deception." That case is now essentially a civil matter. The
new "holder" claims not to be aware of that well publicized controversy.
The only real recourse is a lawsuit against ALL the parties alleged to have
gained from the crime.
<< <i>I ALSO AGREE THAT IT IS NOT RIGHT FOR THE PERSON WHO PULLED IT TO TAKE SUCH A LOSS, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN I SHOULD COVER THE LOSS! >>
Boy, he sure is going to get a rude awakening.
valuable card?
Sorry but i won't read past all the first page of that Beckett nonsense.
Steve
<< <i>J.J. Teaparty bought my stolen cars and DID NOT have to give them back. I didn't have a receipt or proof of ownership, how cananyone prove cards are their's? Aside fromt he registry >>
Here's a pic from when he pulled it..
<< <i> Anyone, and I mean ANYONE is free to come and confront me IN PERSON about my collection if there are any more concerns/issues. I would be more than happy to PERSONALLY resolve any doubts or rumors - I am really not hard to find - I can be your best friend/trading partner, and I can also be your worst hobby nightmare - I am truly a genuine person to deal with, but do not take kindness for weakness - lets think rationally, if I have the ability to aquire such a collection (80% of which has never even been seen by the hobby public because of the ridiculous value unless they were at the Chicago Sun-Times National, or have watched ebay auctions 24/7 for the past 7 years!) would you not then agree that I have the legal resources to STOP these rumors? Lets not hate, put participate - I just do not undertsand as to why/how these bogus rumors get started, especially from a bunch of bums who cant even afford such pieces, who the hell are you guys to even have an opinion in the first place?!?! >>
What a humble guy.
<< <i>The original owner though will have to be able to prove he was infact the original owner. What proof does he really have? There was something said about being in a Beckett about the card did they publish a photo of him with the card? If the only "proof" is the posting then that means nothign. >>
Yeah look 2 posts up...
NEVER THROW AWAY CARDS YOU DO NOT WANT! I WILL ACCEPT DONATIONS OF ALL TYPES AND SIZES! MY KIDS WILL APPRECIATE IT! IF REQUESTED I WILL PASS THEM ON TO LOCAL CHARITIES AS WELL!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My bucket:
Slim findings but updated regularly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIMARILY CHASING:
05-06 UD Ice Glacial Graphs Hardsigned Only (7/42)
Thomas McCollum cards! (13/18 ) Help a brother out! (Maybe a gamer right off of his back to boot!!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also collecting:
Todd Bertuzzi, Dustin Brown, Thomas McCollum, Bob Probert, Borje Salming Dmitry Yushkevich
Guelph Storm Alumni, Guelph Platers Alumni, Guelph Madhatters Alumni, Guelph Natives
Enforcers, Vintage Stars
No longer collecting Canucks. Moving them all via eBay or trades. Enquire within.
Also interested in unique game-used and autos from any sport.
Non hockey: Steelers, Raptors, Trish Stratus
My kids PCs: Ainsley collects New Jersey Devils, Hunter collects Maple Leafs, and Constance collects Florida Panthers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great Traders: stajan55, jman135, atonement, VintageHky, hoovermac, chucknorrisfearssid, devilhockey3, HckyFan47, jbmmadman, chadsexington, leedsutd, clearshot, flamingdevil, missionhocky10, Tail089, cgs28, djstrat726, cujofan2000, bguzowski16, gagne12, datsyuk13, Ronin, sferguson83, Strike, zeus3007, TeemuCollector8, carmichaelpt, 2fnlo, wagley, chum666, drossbachjr, buffalocards0615, npierson, Fullbag, letsgoblues8, Frank Lecky, silverrat, fraze8, bto3105, thecooker24, coxy15, MainlyHockey, bamlinden, njdevilsfireonice30, CBJFAN, thefishman, Gimli2005 (If I've missed you, LMK)
I don't freakin' believe this!!!!!!
Steve
//////////////////////////////////////////
Actually, for the first time I can recall, there are about to be
some important legal lessons learned by the readers of that
board.
This case was discussed here a long time back. The heart
of the controversy had to do with those BGS "pregrade"
stickers. The crook took the "pregraded" cards out of the
little plastic thingy, inserted different cards, and traded
them for the "stolen" card.
Theft-By-Deception is still theft. But, if the crook is slick enough,
he can spin the whole thing into a civil action and the cops
may walk away.
popcorn time
////////////////////////////////////////
There sure must not be many dial-uppers over there.
The pages would take days to load.
I think best solution would be fore the 2 parties to split the proceeds as they are both victims here.
Questions from other members : 07 Cup Sidney CROSBY/Alex OVECHKIN Dual NHL Shields 1/1
Question & Answer Answered On Apr-05-08
Q: Hey there, I've been reading the beckett board regarding this card and what is going on. I just wanted to let you know that if I were in your shoes I would have done the same thing. How are you suppose to know which cards were stolen or not. And from what i've been reading, the card wasn't stolen. The person traded away the 1/1 shield for other cards. They may have not been the cards he thought, which sucks for him, but he still traded away this card for those. -Mike
A: MIKE, Thank You, This Stupid Message Board and Crazy Rumors have been driving me nuts all morning! I do however believe in helping the guy who traded the card away because this hobby is all about good relationships - I Thank You once again for backing my point that the card WAS NEVER STOLEN - maybe the guy was suckered into a bad trade, but things happen in the hobby - I have provided all the serial numbers of the Crosby RC's i traded away - solid color 15/99 purchased on ebay, gold 24/87 multicolor purchased on ebay and a BGS 10 SPA Auto RC /999 which i have the BGS serial number as well as the card itself in my photobuckett archives to help catch this guy. THANK YOU AGAIN FOR LISTENING TO REASON - WHY SHOULD I BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR A IRRESPONSIBLE TRADE? Correct me if im wrong, but I thought we are dealing with TRADING cards, not stocks, mutual funds, and IPO's.... this is the world of TRADING cards - I will not be held responsible for a bad trade, and just coming out and claiming it is stolen property is already contradicting the fact that the person TRADED the card away, at least that ends my worries about it being "Stolen" - Even still I am willing to help track this guy down for Bert as I do not think its fair to him, but again, that should not be my problem. I am offering my help because I have been on the end of sour deals and know the hobby is full of scam-artist's and Thieves, but I can assure you this, I AM NOT ONE OF THEM!
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
for everything else.........there's MasterCard
I mean, it's the same premise, right?
Sweet.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
It can get complicated when you've got beat cops that do not want to create paperwork.
(In the hockey-card case, the detectives have been on the case for months.)
A crook can often talk his way away from the initial confrontation with the cops.
He just claims the traded cards were "good." That can take it out of "criminal,"
and toss it into "a civil matter." The cop can just advise the victim to "take the
guy to civil court."
Knowingly trading fakes for reals is a criminal offense; theft-by-deception.
Even though BGS knows alot of the background here, it is still the burden of Alberts
to show the crook gave him fakes. Then, on the criminal side, the cops need to have
enough evidence to convince the prosecutor that the crook KNEW the cards were fakes.
This controversy is not likely to be resolved on the basis of equity alone.
"We review on certiorari an appellate decision from the district court, which construed Colorado Revised Statute section 18-4-405. We hold that this statute, which permits the rightful owner of stolen property to recover that property from the possession of another person, does not apply when the rightful owner intends to part with the property.
Kenneth James West relinquished his car in exchange for a cashier’s check that appeared valid, but which thereafter proved to be a worthless counterfeit. When he later located the car in the possession of a subsequent purchaser, Tammy Roberts, West sued to recover the car under section 18-4-405. However, the trial court found that section 18-4-405 does not apply to situations, like this case, in which an owner voluntarily relinquishes the property, even if he is defrauded into doing so. Instead, the trial court applied Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) section 2-403, as enacted in Colorado as section 4-2-403, C.R.S. (2006) . The trial court found that the UCC provision entitled Roberts, as a good faith purchaser for value, to retain ownership of the car. On appeal, the district court, acting as an appellate court, upheld the trial court’s decision.
We agree with the district court’s conclusion and hold that, although "theft" in our criminal code includes theft by deception, UCC section 2-403 abrogates section 18-4-405 so that "theft" in that provision does not include theft in which an owner voluntarily relinquishes property to a thief under a transaction of purchase.
Thus we affirm the district court and hold that Tammy Roberts, as a good faith purchaser for value, obtained good title to the car under C.R.S. section 4-2-403."
Mike
I'm not a lawyer, but this makes the most sense to me.
"voluntary transfer" and could not find any.
The concept may/may not apply to the NY hockey-card case. BUT,
it would likely be raised as an affirmative defense; I just can't find it in
any NY docs.
spelling
Who got what, when and how?
mike
/////////////////////////////////////
The original owner of the card is relying on his previous police
reports to result in the return of his card.
I fear that is a pipe-dream.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Columbo Is On The Case, Now:
artygx22 wrote:
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU TRADED 15K WORTH OF CARDS, AND THEN THE SO CALLED HOBBY "COMMUNITY" IS BASHING THE VERY PIECE THATS ONLY BEEN IN YOUR POSSESSION FOR 3 DAYS!
---ITS NOT MY FAULT THAT THIS GUY ALBERTS WAS FOOLISH ENOUGH TO TRADE IT FOR "FAKE"
Enter Columbo
a couple of problems i see...
First off the Chicago Sun-Times Show is not a "National" they have it twice a year, just because Beckett is there does not make it a National...
and secondly, most importantly, you say the card has been in your possession for ONLY 3 DAYS, but the Sun Times Show was last weekend, and at that show some "3000 pairs of eyes viewed" the card...
looks like you have had the card at least 6 days if you had the card at the Sun Times show, but you claim you did the trade at a Starbucks in NYC...to me, it doesnt add up.
////////////////////////////////////
I can't believe the original owner traded the card away.
Why not just sell it for cash?
Am I missing something here?
Steve
First off the Chicago Sun-Times Show is not a "National" they have it twice a year, just because Beckett is there does not make it a National...
and secondly, most importantly, you say the card has been in your possession for ONLY 3 DAYS, but the Sun Times Show was last weekend, and at that show some "3000 pairs of eyes viewed" the card...
looks like you have had the card at least 6 days if you had the card at the Sun Times show, but you claim you did the trade at a Starbucks in NYC...to me, it doesnt add up
The way I read it was the guy took a picture of the card to the show then traded (for it) at the cafe shop.
Why some over there didn't get it I dunno.
Steve
It would have been, if the scamster had not altered the BGS seals.
The lawyers and cops will make the hockey card REAL famous.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The new owner's "final" word:
Just an FYI for those against me on this topic......
I am willing and ready to fight this thing to its very foundation. I OWN THE CARD. Plain and Simple. IT WAS NEVER STOLEN Plain and Simple. IT WAS TRADED FOR - FACT
- Therefore I am in no way liable for the misfortunate trade of this card.
The liable party(s) are as follow's
- The Original Person who made the trade with Bert
- The Grading Company for grading/authenticating "Fake" cards
- The Grading Company for Misrepresentation of a "Tamper-Proof" seal
- The People(s) who have had the card with Full KNOWLEDGE of its history
- FACT - I listed both cards in the trade (05-06 Cup Crosby Rookie Auto Patch 15/99 1 col) (05-06 Cup Crosby Rookie Auto Patch Gold 24/87 multi-color) (05-06 Cup Crosby Rookie Auto Patch Gold 3 color /87 BGS 8.5) (05-06 SP Authentic Crosby Rookie Auto /999 BGS 10) (Serial Numbers of card and BGS holder available upon request)
- In return I recieved the 1/1 crosby/ovechkin and an 04-05 Exquisite Dwight Howard 4 color BGS 9 (BGS case and card serial numbers available upon request)
- The Grading Company for Misrepresentation of a "Tamper-Proof" seal
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
BGS is the new guy's best friend in this controversy, but he is blasting them.
They have ALOT of details on the original trade that we do not. I suspect
that most of their info favors Alberts' position. If they stay quiet, Alberts'
case is likely weakened further.
But what culpability does the original owner have in all this? Don't get me wrong, I find myself rooting for the guy, but I have to question as if he performed due diligence in all of this. How many of you on this board would engage in a trade of this value via mail without having an opportunity to inspect the merchandise and meet or research the other individual?
Is "stolen" the appropriate word to described what happened to the dual jersey here and does it have any bearing on legal recourse available to the original owner? My biggest concern is how can he prove the BGS pre-graded items were swapped out unless the submissions and cards themselves were serial numbered and recorded?
Just too many questions unanswered for me... but I hope the police take this seriously, get all the answers, and everything works out for any victims involved in this mess.
Snorto~
I kind of do and kind of dont feel bad for the original owner. Like Steve said, why not just sell it and get the cash? You may be able to buy those cards you want and have a LOT left over!
And going through the mail on this type of trade...whaaaaa????
A friend of mine who owned a card shop years ago bought some incredible 50's stuff...yup, cops came and took every bit of it. He was lucky enough to get most of his money back cuz the guy hadnt spent it all but he still lost some considerable dough.
According to accounts over there, the orginal trade was in person.
The plastic things from BGS were supposed to be tamper-proof.
All that turned out to mean was that BGS could tell if they had
been played with; they had.
It appears that Alberts' paperwork is in order. The cops have
lots of docs from the orginal filing. BGS knows what happened,
and they know who the original parties are.
But, if New York courts employ the "voluntary transfer" doctrine that navarro
cited, the new guy may have a good chance of prevailing.
However, based upon information and belief, I think there is a
WHOLE lot more to the saga than we have read about.
Yes the current owner came out of the gate wrong with his, BUT he is now trying to help the guy.
It has also come out that the original trade was made IN PERSON not through the mail.. This will have a large bearing on the whole situation me thinks.
<< <i>The biggest problem the original owner is going to have is PROVING the cards he got in the trade were fake or were altered, he also would have to prove the "scammer" knew the trade was made with intent to fraud..
>>
I dont think proving that cards are fake would be difficult. Its easy to find some "experts" out there who could give their opinions in a notorized statement...or they could be sent to psa and show the rejection.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The original crook who messed with the BGS stickers will simply say,
"When I gave the guy the cards, the stickers were just fine."
Absent a confession, I dunno.
The police report was made as soon as it became known the cards were tampered with. However all it takes is 5 minutes to do just that.
To the original owner, all I can say is a fool and his money are soon parted.
<< <i>"I dont think proving that cards are fake would be difficult. Its easy to find some "experts" out there who could give their opinions in a notorized statement...or they could be sent to psa and show the rejection. "
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The original crook who messed with the BGS stickers will simply say,
"When I gave the guy the cards, the stickers were just fine."
Absent a confession, I dunno. >>
I wonder if Beckett can find the guy who submitted the cards, and see if he submitted them again; as he removed high grade cards from "holders", making them raw, he'd have to submit them again to restore their value. It would be circumstantial, but still something.
Looking for Jonny Gomes cards, especially Triple Threads and printing plates. Will consider all cards, though. Got something? Contact me at c_u_l_1@yahoo.com
<< <i>Thats where the in-person thing will come into play. He is going to be asked if he thought they might be tampered why not say somethign then. If it becomes a criminal matter there are too many questions. Civil court will probaly be the best resolution for the original owner.
The police report was made as soon as it became known the cards were tampered with. However all it takes is 5 minutes to do just that. >>
I've followed this story since it began (months ago) the original owner who had the 1/1 card traded it to a guy for a bunch of high end cards all graded by beckett as "raw card reviews" which is just card savers with a tamper proof sticker over the opening.
Well the day albert got these high end cards he was stoked. He made a thread on the beckett boards in the BGS/BVG grading forum about them saying he had just sent them in to be slabbed and he would share pics once they were in hand. Everybody congradulated him and said "can't wait to see pics and so on. Well a little time passes and he finds out every one was tampered. BGS stated they were carefully slit on the sides and resealed . Needless to say he was crushed. He made a thread on every forum at beckett explaining the whole situation and warning other collectors. And I believe another person posted that the same thing happened to them as well..
BGS released a statement quickly following the whole thing stating they are working closely with law enforcement to track down the guy and they are aware of the problem which the thread is still stickied in the graded card forum on the beckett site.
I really do hope they catch the scumbag.
I believe that.
Steve