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A simple solution to the fake slab problem
MS68
Posts: 353
Not sure of this has been brought up yet, if so, I am sorry to the originator of the idea. Why not have PCGS and NGC photograph all coins sent in insured for more than a preset number, say $300 as an example and then include the digital picture in the database. We could then access it when we pull up the cert number where we can then compare it with our coin in hand. Yes, this would be a great deal of work for all the existing coins already slabbed. A fee of say $5 per coin to cover the cost of the photography would be sufficient to pay for the service. This needs to happen NOW. Not after the market is flooded with these fakes. Most coins of any significant value can be traced back to the person that submitted the coins in case we need to verify any questionable pieces. What say you all?
David Schweitz
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CAC sticker on it ,to make it acceptable.
Camelot
I'd pay. Perhaps very inexpensive coins could be opted out someway? I like the photo idea very much
and it would be easy to check and verify.
bob
talk about a neat database that would have been.
endless rarities to look at. searchable.
The only problem I see is that if you have a giant database of images, can't a counterfeiter more readily access these high-quality pictures to aid in the finishing of pieces?
I guess I could use the one pcgs makes for a coin if I sell it on eBay.
Or would that make it easier to just post the pic of the real coin and mail you the fake
and of the percentage of collectors a lot of people don't intend to see every hit on a coin.. the kind of people
who stand back and appreciate the art. people who deal in generalities and rely on the slab for authenticity
and a reasonable opinion of grade, nothing more.
no, photographing doesn't seem help in many areas of the dilema.
if there's any truth to slabs being made overseas, why not pull the slab production back to the united states and re-holder everything? It would at least keep the bad guys moving, and they might get tired of it or not have the deeper pockets to keep reverse-engineering.
The bigger problem is that there are tens of millions of legacy slabs out in the market. Who pays to get them photographed? Who authenticates that those are good slabs and not fake slabs? How much time does all that take? What about coins that turn in the holder after being photographed?
So while a decent idea, the costs are high, and it doesn't help with the coins already in holders.
<< <i>Don't TrueView pictures sort of work this way?
The only problem I see is that if you have a giant database of images, can't a counterfeiter more readily access these high-quality pictures to aid in the finishing of pieces? >>
Yeah, if they can hack into PCGS' computers.
<< <i>Why weren't they photographing the coins al along and or a written description of toning, and flaws etc. I have always scratched my head and thought why wouldn't the TPG's want to document each coin in the computers, heck they have the cert#'s , date received, from who, grade. It is a sham if they just did it right they wouldn't be in this upcoming mess. >>
So what makes you so sure that they aren't already doing something like this? Just because YOU or I don't know about it doen't mean that they aren't doing it.
<< <i>Don't TrueView pictures sort of work this way? >>
I think so. The PCGS cert verification site has TrueViews.
<< <i>The only problem I see is that if you have a giant database of images, can't a counterfeiter more readily access these high-quality pictures to aid in the finishing of pieces? >>
Are they good at finishing or toning coins, say for classic toners? For some of the classic coins we've seen, pictures help tell a coin is fake.
<< <i>rather a real modern out of any mint release in a fake slab upper grade slab. >>
Yes. This is far more a threat to the modern 70 grade market than anything else. There is very little one could do to abate a problem associated with a very good fake tag/slab with a database matching serial number containing a perfectly genuine but otherwise grade 69 coin. Photographs would be practically useless. I cannot imagine 69 vs 70 premiums being maintained at all when this inevitably happens. Doubted they would hold up longer term anyway.
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<< <i>
<< <i>rather a real modern out of any mint release in a fake slab upper grade slab. >>
Yes. This is far more a threat to the modern 70 grade market than anything else. There is very little one could do to abate a problem associated with a very good fake tag/slab with a database matching serial number containing a perfectly genuine but otherwise grade 69 coin. Photographs would be practically useless. I cannot imagine 69 vs 70 premiums being maintained at all when this inevitably happens. Doubted they would hold up longer term anyway. >>
I agree genuine moderns in fake slabs is more of a potential problem than counterfeit classics in fake slabs. But this means they'd have to go buy genuine moderns which I haven't seen yet.
I still think this solution would work on the vast majority of classics with substantial value, but something else would need to be done about the modern and generic markets or they would vanish. If that happens, I don't believe PCGS and NGC would be able to survive without the revenue from the grading of moderns and generics. At least not in their present forms.
However, it may be a blessing in disguse with some of the absurd prices paid for very recent coins that grade 70, over the few dollars a 69 cost. This may cause a greatly needed price adjustment in some of the 70 grades. If the premium (price) difference becomes less between 69 and 70's, due to slab forgery, then this reduces the incentive for faking slabs of moderns.