At what point do you pay twice as much to down grade two points?
BECOKA
Posts: 16,960 ✭✭✭
Updated May 9th 2008:
Since this will be my major collection for quite some time to come I went ahead and did the downgrade. The folks at CRO are fantastic and they made this rather painless.
The main factor was that the second coin below has very original surfaces and has never been played with. I would much rather have a set of lower grades with this quality than a set of higher grades. I was able to do a bit better than break even with my old coin, the first one, so all is good in that department. I am so used to losing money on upgrade/downgrades that it was refreshing for a change.
Oh and the final price is now 45% higher than the one I am down grading also part of the final decision, sure beats 2X.
Original Post:
I am in a dilema, I found a great upgrade that is actually a down grade but it costs twice as much as the one I have. At what point do you justify a huge premium for a down grade?
I am thinking it is only justified if you never plan on letting it go.
Here is mine:
Here is the one I want:
Since this will be my major collection for quite some time to come I went ahead and did the downgrade. The folks at CRO are fantastic and they made this rather painless.
The main factor was that the second coin below has very original surfaces and has never been played with. I would much rather have a set of lower grades with this quality than a set of higher grades. I was able to do a bit better than break even with my old coin, the first one, so all is good in that department. I am so used to losing money on upgrade/downgrades that it was refreshing for a change.
Oh and the final price is now 45% higher than the one I am down grading also part of the final decision, sure beats 2X.
Original Post:
I am in a dilema, I found a great upgrade that is actually a down grade but it costs twice as much as the one I have. At what point do you justify a huge premium for a down grade?
I am thinking it is only justified if you never plan on letting it go.
Here is mine:
Here is the one I want:
0
Comments
<< <i>"Smart collectors know when a downgrade is an upgrade." You just wrote an ad for the CRO guys, and the Half Eagle seems like fair compensation for your efforts.
Actually it was RYK that wrote that add.
OK, I get it now. You meant that the idea expressed in your post -- downgrading to upgrade -- is worthy of a CRO ad.
<< <i>man,keep yours.use the money on some other coin that wets your collecting hunger.
There is something to be said about original skin vs. an old cleaning.
Collecting by die marriage really is a sickness. I can't look at any coin without attempting to attribute it.
<< <i>I don't get it. The one you currently have appears nicer. I don't see how it's possible to ever justify a downgrade that costs more. Seems counterproductive. Why do you think the second coin is nicer? >>
My thoughts exactly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
anywhere else on the coin...
also is the 1st coin, the pictures, really portraying it honestly and
accurately? is that what it looks like more or less?
also, have you seen the 2nd coin in hand or get a good return policy
if you buy it?
sure, at first glance i like the 2nd better but once in hand and comparing
them both i might be more critical when it comes to adding in price
as a factor.
a minor issue that is probably not an issue, is that why does the 2nd
seem to have rim issues at 12 and 6 oclock? most here might know
what that could be a sign of.
also what is the grade of the 2nd and who slabbed it?
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't get it. The one you currently have appears nicer. I don't see how it's possible to ever justify a downgrade that costs more. Seems counterproductive. Why do you think the second coin is nicer? >>
My thoughts exactly. >>
i am guessing he thinks the 1st has been dipped one to many times
and has lost most of its patina.
while the 2nd has more of a patina..
i am just not seeing any dirt on the 2nd and it is making me think the
pic might not be very honest. i can also take pics of coins and make
them look better then they are... but in the end when i look at my pics
i would rather see the coin as it is.. and not something i know it is not.
<< <i>i find it interesting that the 2nd has no dirt in the shield or basically
anywhere else on the coin...
also is the 1st coin, the pictures, really portraying it honestly and
accurately? is that what it looks like more or less?
also, have you seen the 2nd coin in hand or get a good return policy
if you buy it?
sure, at first glance i like the 2nd better but once in hand and comparing
them both i might be more critical when it comes to adding in price
as a factor.
a minor issue that is probably not an issue, is that why does the 2nd
seem to have rim issues at 12 and 6 oclock? most here might know
what that could be a sign of.
also what is the grade of the 2nd and who slabbed it? >>
The second is VF30 by PCGS. Return policy is not an issue it is CRO who is selling it.
Looking at the pics I do see dirt in the cracks of the shield and around the stars. I think it is clean only from wear.
Yes the first pics looks pretty close to what it is in hand.
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<< <i>I know absolutely nothing about early gold, but the two half eagles appear to be two different die marriages to me. The obverses appear to possibly be the same, but the reverses are different. Do you collect them by die marriage? Is the proposed new acquisition a scarcer die marriage? Would that enter into your decision?
Collecting by die marriage really is a sickness. I can't look at any coin without attempting to attribute it. >>
That's funny you say that, the current expert in the field says there are 31 varieties and he is sending me some notes on how to identify them. There are some very rare varieties but unfortunately until I receive the paper I don't know what they are. If this turned out to be one of them then it could be worth the premium.
I have traded down in grade and up in price to a better coin quite a few times. I paid $1350 for a 1795 O.128 in F15 but cleaned, which the most knowledgeable source says was third highest technical grade for the variety, then paid $3100 for the same in VG10 but original, used the other in trade. Its a decision only the collector can make, depending on how much they like the coin, regardless of the grade.
The most interesting 1837 $5 is the small date, which I think uses the $2.50 punches for the date.
i am now understanding your problem.
well one thing you can do is try to knock 10% off the price by
making an offer. they may bite if they wish to flip it fast and they
recognize you as a regular customer or a possible future customer
who may buy more.
awful lot of luster left on the rev for a vf30.
maybe it would upgrade?
argh. i guess my advice is not very useful and it is up to you.
but i agree with you, sometimes a coin is a lower holder can be
a big upgrade eye appeal wise.
just ask any good looking dirty crusty AG03 coins over a 25-35
for example ;-)
<< <i>hm, cro has pretty good taste when they sell gold coins.
i am now understanding your problem.
well one thing you can do is try to knock 10% off the price by
making an offer. they may bite if they wish to flip it fast and they
recognize you as a regular customer or a possible future customer
who may buy more.
awful lot of luster left on the rev for a vf30.
maybe it would upgrade?
argh. i guess my advice is not very useful and it is up to you.
but i agree with you, sometimes a coin is a lower holder can be
a big upgrade eye appeal wise.
just ask any good looking dirty crusty AG03 coins over a 25-35
for example ;-) >>
You ask and you shall receive.
Again, this is not my series, and I am certainly no expert in half eagles. But identifying dies of this period which have different placement of letters, numerals and devices is the same whether in gold or silver. I looked at the placement of E3 (E of STATES) relative to T3, the E being higher on the first piece. Also, the placement of the period after 5D is centered over a dentil on the first piece, and is over the space between dentils on the second piece. It would be interesting to compare these two coins with the expert's information. A rare die marriage is always worth a premium, and might help you to make up your mind.
not really in the gold world. people tried to "market" this but it flopped. by marketing i mean research, books, in the blurb describing
the coin, etc..
oh sure there are always exceptions to the rule but all in all, i would
not go out of my way to pay a premium for a variety or rare die
marriage. (an exception might be the earliest of gold coins).
you might pay the premium and be very disappointed when every dealer
does not!
even dramatic varieties rarely get sold at higher prices. they sit and
sit and sit. an endless list of breen numbers come to mind that i really
do not care to memorize.
gold just seems different... and there are always exceptions... but
most are obscure and un-noticed.
a dramatic price difference might be for example the 1842-C small date variety. rare die marriages rarely even get mentioned now that
i think about it, versus varities.
<< <i>"MrHalfDime's response got my attention, since 1837 $5's have three die marriages of three different obverse and reverse dies, in other words if the reverse is different it would be a new die marriage. I don't see any difference other than wear and possible die stage, the T3 above A and alignment to dentils, looks the same for both."
Again, this is not my series, and I am certainly no expert in half eagles. But identifying dies of this period which have different placement of letters, numerals and devices is the same whether in gold or silver. I looked at the placement of E3 (E of STATES) relative to T3, the E being higher on the first piece. Also, the placement of the period after 5D is centered over a dentil on the first piece, and is over the space between dentils on the second piece. It would be interesting to compare these two coins with the expert's information. A rare die marriage is always worth a premium, and might help you to make up your mind. >>
You have quick eyes to notice this. Personally I can't quite see this yet. The E looks raised in both to my eyes and the period looks to be centered over a space between dentils on both to me.
Perhaps if I can get it in hand before committing to buy I will be able to see this clearer.
<< <i>I like the second coin better, and it is the one I hope I purchased in the first place. In the past, when I have downgraded, it caused some financial pain. At this point, it might be best to do as Stephen Stills says and "Love the one you're with." >>
This is really what I am on the border with. I am pretty much dedicated to this series though and am giving up most of my other collections to make sure this series stays in tact so I expect to have some replacements as I find them. The only way I will replace anything now is if I can see it in hand first and is worth the price of shipping for me.
I will probably ask them if this is possible and decline to look at it further if it is not.
isn't 2500 the going price for an AU model?
seems odd. after checking a few guides and what not it seems
that should be a 1200 dollar coin. not 2500 or 2600...
i would pass based on that alone.
that is an awful lot of money to pay for a coin that normally goes
for much less...
i must be missing something?
<< <i>don't you think their asking price is just a wee bit out there?
isn't 2500 the going price for an AU model?
seems odd. after checking a few guides and what not it seems
that should be a 1200 dollar coin. not 2500 or 2600...
i would pass based on that alone.
that is an awful lot of money to pay for a coin that normally goes
for much less...
i must be missing something? >>
That's why I am stumped as what to do. It should be around 1K, after looking at many examples though this is one of the first I really like the looks of. So at what point do you pass ore splurge.
They will sell it at that price or close to it, most likely to a collector that has more money than he knows what to do with.
<< <i>Price guides have been diluted by 'product' for years. Truly eye appealing coins are worth significantly more than reported values. >>
while i can agree with this i highly doubt one could ever get their
money back if they choose to sell it today. how many dealers would
say, "nice looking coin, great even, i will offer you 2000 even though
sheet says 780".
also i would like to add, with 2600 you can easily stretch at any time
for a coin graded 1-50 if you are patient. if the coin was a 50 i would
say it was a no brainer buy.
tough choice!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Price guides have been diluted by 'product' for years. Truly eye appealing coins are worth significantly more than reported values. >>
while i can agree with this i highly doubt one could ever get their
money back if they choose to sell it today. how many dealers would
say, "nice looking coin, great even, i will offer you 2000 even though
sheet says 780".
also i would like to add, with 2600 you can easily stretch at any time
for a coin graded 1-50 if you are patient. if the coin was a 50 i would
say it was a no brainer buy.
tough choice!! >>
Not sure where you are getting the 2600 number from but just to be clear it was around $1700. And now that I look it is gone which makes the decision much easier.
1700 is more in line. makes a lot more sense.
thanks for clearing that up!
and if it is gone... so much for this thread ;-)
<< <i>woops! i saw the 1838 priced coin and misread. i went to the website and made a mistake.
1700 is more in line. makes a lot more sense.
thanks for clearing that up!
and if it is gone... so much for this thread ;-) >>
That's ok, I would have had to swallow quite a bit to afford that right now. I was getting ready to call them earlier today but then got caught up with work and forgot.
On the plus side I have seen at least one other similar coin from them so I will keep my eyes peeled and try not to miss the next one. Hopefully it will be at least 6 months.
Oh and the price is reduced quite a bit to boot making the decision much harder. If anyone here wants it please make my decision easier.
<< <i>MrHalfDime's response got my attention, since 1837 $5's have three die marriages of three different obverse and reverse dies, in other words if the reverse is different it would be a new die marriage. I don't see any difference other than wear and possible die stage, the T3 above A and alignment to dentils, looks the same for both.
I have traded down in grade and up in price to a better coin quite a few times. I paid $1350 for a 1795 O.128 in F15 but cleaned, which the most knowledgeable source says was third highest technical grade for the variety, then paid $3100 for the same in VG10 but original, used the other in trade. Its a decision only the collector can make, depending on how much they like the coin, regardless of the grade.
The most interesting 1837 $5 is the small date, which I think uses the $2.50 punches for the date. >>
OK, since I originally posted this thread I have had many discussions with John McCloskey the current expert in Classic Head Gold and have learned quite a bit about varieties.
Nysoto, you are correct there are only 3 varieties for 1837 and the two in the OP are indeed the same variety, or same obverse and reverse which reduce my chances of making a renewed decision on this coin. I have located the other two varieties in similar condition and may purchase those making this one almost impossible to justify at this point in time.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>I am in a dilema, I found a great upgrade that is actually a down grade but it costs twice as much as the one I have. At what point do you justify a huge premium for a down grade?
I am thinking it is only justified if you never plan on letting it go. >>
I have done it more than once, and have not regretted it yet.
<< <i>Thought I would resurrect this thread. Somehow the coin is back up for sale, and I wanted to read through this to find out why I did not get it the first time around.
Oh and the price is reduced quite a bit to boot making the decision much harder. If anyone here wants it please make my decision easier.
I would have to wonder why the coin is back up for sale so soon- maybe you were actually saved from a problem not getting it the first time around?
-Randy Newman
<< <i>
<< <i>Thought I would resurrect this thread. Somehow the coin is back up for sale, and I wanted to read through this to find out why I did not get it the first time around.
Oh and the price is reduced quite a bit to boot making the decision much harder. If anyone here wants it please make my decision easier.
I would have to wonder why the coin is back up for sale so soon- maybe you were actually saved from a problem not getting it the first time around? >>
My thoughts on this vary, I would of course look at it on approval first but it often happens than someone gets a nice lower grade coin as a filler and finds a spectacular higher grade coin as an upgrade quickly and then dumps the one they just bought.
My case is that I am not looking for an over priced high end coin so who knows.
I sent an inquiry about this coin so maybe yes maybe no.
I understand the dilemma, I just do not think these two coins warrant the action you are contemplating.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
"If you're down and confused
And you don't remember who you're talkin' to..."
Since this will be my major collection for quite some time to come I went ahead and did the downgrade. The folks at CRO are fantastic and they made this rather painless.
The main factor was that the second coin below has very original surfaces and has never been played with. I would much rather have a set of lower grades with this quality than a set of higher grades. I was able to do a bit better than break even with my old coin, the first one, so all is good in that department. I am so used to losing money on upgrade/downgrades that it was refreshing for a change.
Oh and the final price is now 45% higher than the one I am down grading also part of the final decision, sure beats 2X.