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Evolution or Revolution? Why Gold and Platinum Eagles Rule.
Griv
Posts: 2,804 ✭
Modern gold and silver bullion began mintage in 1986, and actually took a couple of years before the full gold 4 coin proof set was minted. As to be expected the proofs were popular but no one paid any attention to the UNC issued bullion as it was intended to be just that. Because collectors collect, the UNC’s slowly made their way into the coin collecting market, mostly around 1999 and specifically due to the States Quarters and the “awakening” they caused.
Because of the slow acceptance and quality issues (surprise) at the Mint, the availability of grade 70 coins in the early gold UNC eagles is almost non-existent. Likewise in the platinum market a similar thing happens but for a different reason. Platinum coins in general only achieved lukewarm interest in general due to the cost of the coins and somewhat due to the stark modern obverse.
Introduced in 1997 when some fanfare, the APE’s sold well enough but with the stock market in full dotcom mode, platinum quickly fell by the wayside. In addition, the lack of interest in the UNC’s was combined with a change in IRS rulings for 1999, that allowed platinum to be included in IRAs and 401Ks. This meant that each ounce of platinum that was added had to be physically counted one by one at the investment storing facilities and I can promise they weren’t using white gloves and plastic tongs. This is the main reason that the 99 UNC 1 oz is the rarest of the MS69s.
Gold, silver and platinum eagles have been widely popular for collectors and even more so after 1999. Metal prices back then were static with gold ~360/oz, platinum ~600/oz and poor old silver ~4.60/oz so these collectors saw no plat in the precious metals market nor were there anything known as “flippers”. Most bought because of the beauty they saw in the coins and from the uniqueness of being able to purchase a coin minted in their lifetime made of gold.
This “revolution” in coin collecting still remained somewhat under the radar until right around 2004. Several things came together to bring bullion coins into their current state of blood lust and mayhem such as the rise in precious metals which in turn caused the 2004 proof plat coins to break low mintages as well as the increased hype from the Shopping Channel, Monex, etc., all the while the stock market is anything but recovered from the earlier implosion. Maybe even add the First Strike Program as a factor as if anything, it is a good marketing campaign.
I think the coins are beautiful and very challenging to get in older years (pre-2005). I’ve also noticed that there are actually only a handful of graded sets that are completed in any category which shows that there is a lot of opportunity for outstanding Registry sets.
Because of the slow acceptance and quality issues (surprise) at the Mint, the availability of grade 70 coins in the early gold UNC eagles is almost non-existent. Likewise in the platinum market a similar thing happens but for a different reason. Platinum coins in general only achieved lukewarm interest in general due to the cost of the coins and somewhat due to the stark modern obverse.
Introduced in 1997 when some fanfare, the APE’s sold well enough but with the stock market in full dotcom mode, platinum quickly fell by the wayside. In addition, the lack of interest in the UNC’s was combined with a change in IRS rulings for 1999, that allowed platinum to be included in IRAs and 401Ks. This meant that each ounce of platinum that was added had to be physically counted one by one at the investment storing facilities and I can promise they weren’t using white gloves and plastic tongs. This is the main reason that the 99 UNC 1 oz is the rarest of the MS69s.
Gold, silver and platinum eagles have been widely popular for collectors and even more so after 1999. Metal prices back then were static with gold ~360/oz, platinum ~600/oz and poor old silver ~4.60/oz so these collectors saw no plat in the precious metals market nor were there anything known as “flippers”. Most bought because of the beauty they saw in the coins and from the uniqueness of being able to purchase a coin minted in their lifetime made of gold.
This “revolution” in coin collecting still remained somewhat under the radar until right around 2004. Several things came together to bring bullion coins into their current state of blood lust and mayhem such as the rise in precious metals which in turn caused the 2004 proof plat coins to break low mintages as well as the increased hype from the Shopping Channel, Monex, etc., all the while the stock market is anything but recovered from the earlier implosion. Maybe even add the First Strike Program as a factor as if anything, it is a good marketing campaign.
I think the coins are beautiful and very challenging to get in older years (pre-2005). I’ve also noticed that there are actually only a handful of graded sets that are completed in any category which shows that there is a lot of opportunity for outstanding Registry sets.
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Comments
I do like the Platinum eagles, and have a couple without worrying about any direction PM prices will go.
I've been in since the beginning-- but have yet to see a revolution in collecting these, or anything close to bringing these coins to a "state of blood lust and mayhem." The 2004 platinum proofs have done well because, based on a number of factors (chiefly the fact that the Mint starting sales late and ending sales early) people who normally would have bought one at the end of the offering period missed out. Sales figures weren't widely followed at that point in time, and it took awhile for the market to realize that the coins mintages were at historic lows (true at the time, and still true in terms of proofs, although the 2006 w uncirculated plats have beat them again by half). Platinum as a whole is a bit of a red-headed stepchild in the collector market, and that's even more true for the regular platinum uncirculated coins from 1997 to 2007-- referred to as the "Eagle Under the Sun" reverse variety, or just plain old platinum bullion. They might end up in IRAs, but, unlike a few of the platinum proofs and the "w" uncirculated coins, I have yet to see any numismatic for them bringing a premium over melt. I won't argue with you if you say it has happened; but if it has, I'm completely unaware of it, and I've been an active platinum collector for a few years now.
While a few people on this forum appreciate them, they are largely off the radar (and the budget) for most collectors.
That said, I think the platinum coins are great, if undervalued and underappreciated. They definitely are more than "widgets" and whatever else platinum haters call them.
Rising metal prices have kept these from becoming more widely collected, and has done more to hurt the series than help it.
Anyone who thinks platinum is gong to "tank" is wrong in my opinion. Yes, the price has increased dramatically in the last couple of weeks (largely based on the weak dollar, inflation, industrial demand and fear about the supply), and the price could certainly drop back down to December levels, but the climb from $400/oz to $1500/oz was pretty gradual.
Thinking that we're going to return to 2001 prices is like waiting for gas to go down to $1.50 a gallon.
I wouldn't bet on that. This is not the same market as when silver approached $50 an ounce in 1980 (an inflation adjusted equivalent of around $140). Indeed, the current price of silver, around $20 an ounce, has the buying power of about $7 in 1980.
Not to say it won't fluctuate- it will- but the metal market we're in now does not even begin to resemble what we've seen in the past.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
That might be your opinion, but it's an ignorant one.
There are definitely coins within this field that bring significant premiums to melt, have for years, and continue to do so even in the current bullion market.
If you want to get involved in the certification game of modern bullion coins then you might have something, but that is not a game I care to play in..... I want my coins in OGP when ever possible.....
It is really a three level market these bullion coins.....
Silver Eagles are popular and collected by probably a large percentage of collectors and the bullion and proof coins are standard coins just like a proof and mint set I would bet.....
Gold Eagles (Buffalos as well) are a step above those, but are still popular with collectors with investors probably sucking up a good number of these coins.....
Platinum Eagles are not popular in the general world of numismatics, but there is a small section of collectors of these coins who are collecting these coins in proof and W Unc with the bullion coins seemingly ignored relatively by that section. Investors I would say are sucking up what bullion related coins are producted.....
If you are involved with metals as an investment you either have to be able to stomach wide swings in value or be in for the long term.....
<< <i>I think ultimately they were meant as bullion and that the market won't support premiums for bullion items in the long term just because they are "graded."
That might be your opinion, but it's an ignorant one.
There are definitely coins within this field that bring significant premiums to melt, have for years, and continue to do so even in the current bullion market. >>
There are coins that bring premiums, such as the 96 SAE, and they will continue to do so, but rarities produced because of the grading is a slippery slope..... I would rather have truely rare (or semi-rare) coins then coins TPG say are rare.....
I don't disagree with that statement. None of my posts have commented on scarcity based on grade.
While I'd rather have a coin slabbed MS70 over MS69, for the most part I don't think the extra point justifies the premium, especially in dealing with coins like the 2006 w uncirculated platinums, all of which are very low mintage modern coins.
<< <i>but rarities produced because of the grading is a slippery slope
I don't disagree with that statement. None of my posts have commented on scarcity based on grade.
While I'd rather have a coin slabbed MS70 over MS69, for the most part I don't think the extra point justifies the premium, especially in dealing with coins like the 2006 w uncirculated platinums, all of which are very low mintage modern coins. >>
If you are saying that coins such as the 2007 SAE in 69 or 70 will not bring a premium I agree and they should not..... But you where talking about other old coins in which are not available in certain grades, that is the slippery slope.....
I wrote nothing of the sort. You must be referring to someone else's post.
What I wrote is that while most platinum coins at this point are available at melt (a significant premium to issue price), there are still a few that get a premium even with platinum at $2200 (and it's down from there now). They include the 2004 proofs and the 2006 w coins (less so with the $100, but definitely there on the $50, $25 and $10).
<< <i>I don't see the platinum bullion coins having any numismatic premium at this point in time..... I was able to pick up a 2008 1/10 oz coin for $226.00 a few weeks ago, which was like $10 above melt at the time, not exactly a premium..... >>
I think it would be unrealistic to think you would get any numismtic value for a 2008 of anything. I think if you were to try and buy some ealy year platinum and gold eagles you would see a different story. I see both UNC and Proof early year eagles go for fairly high dollars in grade 70 and for a nice premium in grade 69. Admittedly I have seen the quick rise in platinum spot prices all but wipe out grade 69 premiums in the later years.
If you check the PCGS Registry you will see that there are several thousand gold, silver or platinum eagle sets and while it might be for everyone, there is a strong and viable market for US Eagles graded or otherwise. I also will say that graded eagles are one of the fastest growing numismatic plays in the last 100 years. But then again it's not for everyone.
Inflation or Deflation ?
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<< <i>
<< <i>I don't see the platinum bullion coins having any numismatic premium at this point in time..... I was able to pick up a 2008 1/10 oz coin for $226.00 a few weeks ago, which was like $10 above melt at the time, not exactly a premium..... >>
I think it would be unrealistic to think you would get any numismtic value for a 2008 of anything. I think if you were to try and buy some ealy year platinum and gold eagles you would see a different story. I see both UNC and Proof early year eagles go for fairly high dollars in grade 70 and for a nice premium in grade 69. Admittedly I have seen the quick rise in platinum spot prices all but wipe out grade 69 premiums in the later years.
If you check the PCGS Registry you will see that there are several thousand gold, silver or platinum eagle sets and while it might be for everyone, there is a strong and viable market for US Eagles graded or otherwise. I also will say that graded eagles are one of the fastest growing numismatic plays in the last 100 years. But then again it's not for everyone. >>
I don't have a 1/10 bullion platinum coin, so I have one for my collection if the 2008 never brings a premium.....
With the rules regarding purchasing platinum are as crazy as I have heard, coupled with the high prices of platinum then we could be in for a really low mintage.....
As far as MS/PR 69/70 coins I don't care for these and consider them a waste of money personally..... In my opinion they are premiums which could disappear in a snap if a hoard of these comes from someplace and destroys the population..... I see originality not plastic as something worth a premium.....
With the crackings and meltings which happen with these bullion coins how reliable will the population reports be and registries as well.....
<< <i>But you where talking about other old coins in which are not available in certain grades, that is the slippery slope
I wrote nothing of the sort. You must be referring to someone else's post.
What I wrote is that while most platinum coins at this point are available at melt (a significant premium to issue price), there are still a few that get a premium even with platinum at $2200 (and it's down from there now). They include the 2004 proofs and the 2006 w coins (less so with the $100, but definitely there on the $50, $25 and $10). >>
"I think ultimately they were meant as bullion and that the market won't support premiums for bullion items in the long term just because they are "graded."
That might be your opinion, but it's an ignorant one.
There are definitely coins within this field that bring significant premiums to melt, have for years, and continue to do so even in the current bullion market."
You are saying right here that the market will not support a premium is an opinion and an ignorant one at that.....
<< <i>Depends but if you bought it in 06 then you did quite well. Appreciation. >>
My problem is :
It cost too much when I bought it from the mint and I liked it, so I kept it. I cannot see appreciation on some coins while I hold them and cherish them for what they are. Does that make sense, too ?
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<< <i>I think ultimately they were meant as bullion and that the market won't support premiums for bullion items in the long term just because they are "graded."
That might be your opinion, but it's an ignorant one.
There are definitely coins within this field that bring significant premiums to melt, have for years, and continue to do so even in the current bullion market. >>
Yes, it's my opinion. You may call it ignorant if you want. I'll reserve my opinion of you to myself, thankyouverymuch.
I would, however, like to point out that the "significant premiums to melt" that have been around for "years" haven't been around for that many years in the grand scheme of things.
As well as the fact that the vast majority of these coins remain uncertified, yet are identical in all respects to those coins that have been "graded."
Got any tulip bulbs you're holding onto, sport?
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Um, yes?
I think ultimately they were meant as bullion and that the market won't support premiums for bullion items in the long term just because they are "graded."
In a nutshell, American Platinum Eagles - Either you "get it" or you don't, sport.
TPG grading is what it is - an opinion. TPG-graded coins command premiums, and if you can't tell the difference between PR-69 vs. PR-70, don't buy the PR-70s. Same goes for MS. I prefer the 69s myself.
Ultimately, rarity and condition determine the premiums for *all* coins, not just Modern Bullion. If you think that these Plats aren't rare, just ignore them - I haven't seen any Plat collectors criticize someone for *not* collecting Plats.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>"I think ultimately they were meant as bullion and that the market won't support premiums for bullion items in the long term just because they are "graded."
That might be your opinion, but it's an ignorant one. >>
I disagree that it is ignorant. The fact that you would make that statement indicates you know very little about the bullion coin market and can only understand from a bullion point of view. This is not uncommon but it is frustrating to the tens of thousands of serious US bullion collectors that enjoy what we are collecting for the pure numismatic value and if the market PMs go up then all the better. It's easy for people that flipped a few ounces here and there to try and tell us collectors that we really don't exist.
Why, Revolution!
<< <i>Evolution or Revolution?
Why, Revolution!
I believe that's a Beatles song. I don't remember the year, but it's in the Juke box.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I believe that's a Beatles song. I don't remember the year, but it's in the Juke box.
1968. Flip side of "Hey Jude".
The year they brought back the mintmarks.
On another topic...
As a bullion collector, I am NOT frustrated that other collectors do not yet appreciate these (bullion) coins. In fact, I agree that older series are more interesting from historical and variation standpoints--not to mention cool patterns of wear and tear.
The thing is, as a newer collector, the new coins offer so many advantages, they are just irresistible:
1) incredibly low mintages
2) no doubts about whether they are fake or have been messed with
3) easy and relatively cheap to obtain--even with today's crazy PM markets
4) (mostly) beautiful designs
What's not to like?
I will. it's an ignorant opinion.
ig·no·rant /ˈɪgnərənt/
–adjective 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.
your comment was with respect to grading bullion coins.
but rarities produced because of the grading is a slippery slope
I never said anything about graded bullion coins.
The fact is, there are a few platinum "bullion" coins that enjoy a significant premium to melt, even at $2300 an ounce.
That premium reflects numismatic demand; absent that it would not exist.
exactly. some of these folks have nothing better to do than to criticize what others collect. it's ridiculous.
<< <i>You are saying right here that the market will not support a premium is an opinion and an ignorant one at that.....
your comment was with respect to grading bullion coins.
but rarities produced because of the grading is a slippery slope
I never said anything about graded bullion coins.
The fact is, there are a few platinum "bullion" coins that enjoy a significant premium to melt, even at $2300 an ounce.
That premium reflects numismatic demand; absent that it would not exist. >>
Which is the platinum bullion coins have a numismatic premium?
Now the 2006-W Unc coins and some of the proof coins such as the 04 carry a numismatic premium, but those where sold as collector coins and not as bullion coins.....
Now the 2006-W Unc coins and some of the proof coins such as the 04 carry a numismatic premium, but those where sold as collector coins and not as bullion coins.....
okay, in that case I agree with you. posts on this board largely don't differentiate, and refer to all of these coins as "bullion".
What I was referring to were the proof and "w uncirculated coins as having a numismatic premium -- as you state, for coins like the 2004 platinum proofs and the 2006 w uncirculated coins, there IS a numismatic premium.
To my knowledge, that is not true of the non-w uncirculated platinums, which don't seem to have established a market demand to trade at anything above melt. I suppose that some day they might develop a market, but it seems unlikely considering that the market for platinum as a whole has struggled to find a foothold among collectors.
Edited to add: to the extent my earlier comments were based on my own misinterpretation of the point I was responding to, I apologize
Got to root for the underdog plat bullions. Yay for the 2007 1/2 oz @ mintage of 7001!!! Hey this all sounds like March Madness, the best basketball time of year.....
Well, just Love coins, period.