<< <i>No wonder you are so totally anti-slab. It fits. >>
dude, don't be a simpleton. i'm anti-slab-HYPE.
big difference
K S >>
Well Karl, how about elaborating on what kind of coin doctoring you think is OK. How about artificial frosting, artificial toning, silver putty, tooling, altered surfaces, and thumbing just to name a few?
Deception is the problem. The coin doctor is deceiving the grading co. and the buyer in the end. Sounds like knowingly selling fake designer shoes and watches as the real thing. Don't people get arrested for that?
YES! Jerry, I think that you are on to something. The subtle difference is that selling a fake watch is stealing a brand name identity (i.e. Rolex). Selling a coin that has been modified to make it appear better is a difficult thing to explain to a judge or jury.
And now for the cynical view, which I belive is the real world view if you are a collector selling a coin.
Would I sell to a doctor? Wrong question. Real question is do you sell for a fixed price or on terms that allow you participate in his post-doctoring profits.
Even if you don’t want to sell to a particular dealer, once you sell the coin into the market you lose all control over where it will end up. So, once a decision to sell is made all that should matter is getting the best price in a reasonable time frame. That might mean selling in an auction where you have no control over who buys. Or you can sell it to your favorite honest dealer, but it could then change hands several times among dealers and wind up in the hands of the nogoodnik anyway.
Would I buy from a known doctor? I guess that's a bit like sleeping with a slut. You need to use protection-- in this case plastic. But the truth is that if PCGS or NCG could not tell that it was doctored how are you supposed to? Which raises the real problem–even if you buy slabbed coins from reputable dealers you have no way of knowing where that coin came from, since it may have changed hands many times before your dealer bought it. Probably the only way to really protect yourself is to buy only "virgins" from the mint or "nice girls"-- very rare coins with provenance, which for most of us would mean not buying anything at all.
<< <i>Well Karl, how about elaborating on what kind of coin doctoring you think is OK. How about artificial frosting, artificial toning, silver putty, tooling, altered surfaces, and thumbing just to name a few? >>
ah, a sensible question.
in theory, if someone wants it, i guess you could state ANY coin doctoring is ok. but it sounds like your asking me PERSONALLY, so here's my worthless opinion.
i personally would (& have) buy coins that have had the following done (just a sample):
- dipped - usually would be a scarcer date though since i definitely prefer original coins - plug a holed coin - un-bend a bent coin - remove severe scratches (typically graffiti) from a coin - remove corrosion (usually severely corroded copper) - remove etched pvc - un-alter an altered date/mm - remove artifical tone from a coin's surface - remove a jewelry mount etc.....
the specific examples you gave, artificial frosting, artificial toning, silver putty, tooling, altered surfaces, and thumbing. of those, i WOULD buy a con that's been artificially toned, say for example a bright pink 1804 half-cent in xf, if it were toned back to a brown color, i would definitely buy it. but the other alterations you mentioned, i do not care for, & would avoid.
<< <i>You need to use protection-- in this case plastic. >>
i still maintain, & have always stated, that plastic affords really only a little useful protection against doctored coins - but that it also doesn't really matter, since it is NOT the best protection.
THE BEST protection is to buy ONLY WHAT YOU LIKE, & for reasons of it being a hobby, NOT A BUSINESS. so, if you happen to like colorized coins, by golly, buy them & enjoy them! you like pink large-cents? BUY THEM! you enjoy owning sky-blue state quarters? GO FOR IT!
the point is, buy something for what it IS, not what you think it "could become", ie a profit center. if you buy that gloriously rainbow-colored morgan dollar because you think your gonna get it slabed & make 10x the $$$, that's buying w/ greedy motives, & frankly, i think you deserve to get burned. but if you buy that same coin becaue you happen to ENJOY rainbows, then how can you possibly go wrong??? YOU CAN'T!!!
the bottom line always remains the same for me, "if you like it, if you really REALLY like it, then the price does not matter."
But Karl, I think the spirit of this thread relates to coin doctors who do these kind of things, and then try to deceive collectors and the grading services into believing that these are unaltered coins. For all the things you mentioned, if the coin is sold with disclosure of the alterations, fine. But too many times these coins find their way onto the market as "no problem original" coins.
<< <i>But Karl, I think the spirit of this thread relates to coin doctors who do these kind of things, and then try to deceive collectors and the grading services into believing that these are unaltered coins. For all the things you mentioned, if the coin is sold with disclosure of the alterations, fine. But too many times these coins find their way onto the market as "no problem original" coins. >>
"deception" & "coin doctor" are 2 totally, completely separate issues, TOTALLY.
"doctoring" need not even be involved for deception to take place.
example, tell me if any of the following statements is deceptive:
"ngc will only certify original coins" "ngc will not certify coins w/ artifiical toning" "you can trust dealers who are members of the png" "the coin market is hot"
You're splitting hairs Karl. And you just can't wait to turn any discussion back to slabs. Most coin doctors are deceptive, regardless of what you want to believe.
<< <i>You're splitting hairs Karl. And you just can't wait to turn any discussion back to slabs. >>
splitting hairs???
puh-leeze, i'm being accurate. if anything, that's what "splitting hairs" means - BEING ACCURATE. & more accuracy would be helpful around here, instead of blatant blanket statements like "coin doctors deserve the death penalty"
ok, here's some more deceptions, this time slab-less:
"morgan dollars are rare" "silver is going up" "if you want to make $$$ in coins, only buy the highest grade you can afford" (well, maybe slightly slab-related) "the coin market is hot" "it's ok to dip coins because they are more valuable that way because people prefer blast-white" "buying circulated coins is a waste of time & money because nobody collects circs" "we have a star-rating system for our coins for eye-appeal / this coin has a five-star rating" "coins w/ problems are totally worthless" "you should only buy coins from professional full-time dealers since you can trust them"
why are these deceptions? because they are BLANKET STATEMENTS, w/ no supporting FACTS, just based on vague suggestion & innunendo.
<< <i>Most coin doctors are deceptive, regardless of what you want to believe. >>
nope, i just will not be hoodwinked by such blanket statements. i would believe most SCAMMERS are deceptive, since that's basically how they're defined, but most (NOT ALL) of the coin doctors i know are frank & up-front about their skills IF YOU ASK. example: allen stockton
btw, i don't necessarily consider someone who paints neon-pink whirligigs on a kennedy half a coin doctor. that's just a goof-off imo. but the easy way is to lump everyone whose practice you don't like into a single generic category of "coin doctor", which is sad, rather than focusing on specifics.
"i personally would (& have) buy coins that have had the following done (just a sample): - dipped - usually would be a scarcer date though since i definitely prefer original coins - plug a holed coin - un-bend a bent coin - remove severe scratches (typically graffiti) from a coin - remove corrosion (usually severely corroded copper) - remove etched pvc - un-alter an altered date/mm - remove artifical tone from a coin's surface - remove a jewelry mount etc....."
Dipping a coin typically will result in removing whatever toning the coin might have had regardless of type of toning, ie. natural or artificial. Plugging a holed coin results in removing the hole. Un-bending a bent coin results in removing the bend.
How is removal accomplished by the coin doctor on an altered date or altered mintmark coin though? I ask because all of your examples, except for this one, involve a "removal" process. For example, are you saying there exists coin doctors that will remove from the population of all "1909-S V.D.B.' s" the ones they encounter where the "S" has been added to a regular 1909 V.D.B?
It might be helpful if you would give an example of one of your own coins that you know has been, acceptable to you, "un-altered" from its previously altered date or mintmark state.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
btw, i don't necessarily consider someone who paints neon-pink whirligigs on a kennedy half a coin doctor. that's just a goof-off imo. but the easy way is to lump everyone whose practice you don't like into a single generic category of "coin doctor", which is sad, rather than focusing on specifics.
THAT is why the "coin posse" concept is a joke.
Dorkkarl - There are many concepts as to how a "coin posse" might work, including yours, mine and the Coin Posse's. Please tell me whose concept you refer to when you call the concept a joke. Also, please tell me what that concept is. Also, if you're referring to the Coin Posse's own concept, please tell me how you know so much about them and their concept. Thank you.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Again, my perspective is from a position of very recent involvement in collecting toned coins and understanding why they tone and that it used to be the norm for toned (tarnished) coins to be dipped to restore a white/silver "original" look. Thus, I consider dipping to be an AT practice, or coin doctoring, and deceptive. Ergo, to me, anyone who dips silver coins yet cries foul about the methods of AT that the rest of you are talking about, is a hypocrite. Adding toning or removing toning are both artificial methods of changing a coin's toning.
Bill
(as in, "Bill, you ignorant...")
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
........i of corse could be wrong , and i'm sure it's been brought up many times befor - but : i do not believe a coin doctor could be prosocuted in a court of law. He / she , takes something they own ........ alters it - then sells it . We all wax our cars - buffing out scratches, we paint our houses - painting over rotten wood , we shave the hair that grows on our body , we cover blemishes with make-up .................. we get boob jobs , nose jobs, we saturate our auction pix on ebay. We fib,we stretch the truth , we borrow thing 's and sometime's don't return them - we exagerate .................. We wash our clothes, our dishes .............our filthy little hands we resurface our driveways ......................we fertilize our grass and add S.T.P to our gas we alter, change , cover up , enhance , and decieve every day of our lives ..........and NOBODY forms a posse' to hunt US down !
I might wash and wax my car, but I don't tell the buyer that I never did and that it just became bright and shiney through a natural aging process. It has already been mentioned during this debate that a coin doctor in Chicago has a network of submitters that submit his doctored coins to PCGS. Looks more like a criminal enterprise than someone waxing their car or painting their house.
I would never support a coin doctor on the buy or sell side.
By the way, dorkarl; coinguy1 is correct in clarifying his question. A coin doctor is one who doctors a coin under a veil of deception to enhance the look of the coin without proper disclosure.
Now that the question is clarified, would you keep your comments here the same or rephrase them?
Case in point:
I have an 1856 FE cent which I purchased a few years ago for a very reasonable price since it has a punch mark to the left of the date. It is a lovely coin. A coin doctor offered to buy the coin at 30% over market value and/or fix the coin for a fee so that it will show no signs of the punch mark. I refused in a defiant way. What would you do? What would others here have done?
Keep in mind that President Franklin Pierce made this punch mark to see how much stress a small cent could take. Coin collectors never forgave him after that!!
<< <i>For example, are you saying there exists coin doctors that will remove from the population of all "1909-S V.D.B.' s" the ones they encounter where the "S" has been added to a regular 1909 V.D.B? >>
yes, ABSOLUTELY. (i don't know of anyone who considers altering dates/mm's to be "coin doctoring", rather it's fraud. ie, painting a ford pinto turbo-red is much different then gluing porsche decals on it & claiming it's a porsche.)
<< <i>It might be helpful if you would give an example of one of your own coins that you know has been, acceptable to you, "un-altered" from its previously altered date or mintmark state. >>
i no longer own it, but at 1 time, i did own a 1803 bust dollar whose date was altered to 1804. i had the coin re-altered back to 1803. imo, that's a totally, perfectly legitimate use of coin doctoring.
<< <i>Please tell me whose concept you refer to when you call the concept a joke. >>
i'm referring to the infamous "legend" thread that described all the wonderful things the coin posse was going to do & when it would be announced. strangely, even a year later, NOTHING had been announced.
can't find the thread right now, but maybe somebody else can link it?
<< <i>coinguy1 is correct in clarifying his question. A coin doctor is one who doctors a coin under a veil of deception >>
& this is exactly why i can't jump on the "death to doctors" bandwagon, because i totally disagree that ALL coin doctoring is done deceptively. implying that ALL doctoring is done under a veiil of deception automatically rules out the PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE SERVICES provided by coin doctors, again, such as allan stockton. heck, by def'n there could be no deception involved w/ the coins i've sent to him, since i knew exactly what they looked like before & after!
i think the REAL problem that your all trying to address is someone who sells a doctored coin w/out revealing such. it's plainly obvious that YOU NEED NOT BE A COIN DOCTOR TO DECEPTIVELY SELL A DOCTORED COIN.
that's why i separate "coin doctors" from "deceivers". it just simply isn't fair or useful to pronounce a blanket statement that "coin doctors are evil", & as long as that line of reasoning is pursued, NO progress will ever be made.
i've said it before many times, it's not "coin doctoring" that's evil, it's MARKETING that can be evil. there is a huge distinction. to reiterate, perfectly legitimate reasons exist to doctor coins, but legitimate reasons do NOT exist for deceptive marketing of such coins.
that's the distinction for me,
<< <i>I have an 1856 FE cent which I purchased a few years ago for a very reasonable price since it has a punch mark to the left of the date. It is a lovely coin. A coin doctor offered to buy the coin at 30% over market value and/or fix the coin for a fee so that it will show no signs of the punch mark. I refused in a defiant way. What would you do? What would others here have done? >>
me personally, i would leave the coin AS IS, but that's ME, & i have NO RIGHT to impose my judgement on others.
so the bottom line, to answer the orignal question, YES i would sell to a known coin doctor, & YES i would buy from a known coin doctor, & i would take THE RESPONSIBILITY for knowingly doing so.
<< <i>Hypothetical #1 : You have a group of PCGS coins for sale and learn that you can get top dollar (a minimum of 5% more than anyone else will pay) from a coin dealer who is widely rumored (here or elsewhere) to be a coin doctor....
Would you sell your coins to him? >>
I have thought about this form time to time and my answer is yes, I would, though my preference would certainly be to sell elsewhere.
<< <i>Would it matter, if before you made your decision, you somehow learned that if he buys your coins, he will doctor one or more of them in an effort to get a higher grade at PCGS? >>
Yes, that would matter and in such a case I would not sell the coins to him.
<< <i>Would it have any effect on your decision, whether he seemed/acted like a nice guy or a jerk? >>
It would effect my decision - I have sold coins for less, to people who were pleasant, as opposed to unpleasant to deal with.
<< <i>Hypothetical #2 : You are at a coin show and ready to buy a fairly priced, great looking PCGS coin from a dealer. Your pulse is racing in anticipation and you are ready to write the check. But, you suddenly remember you had heard widespread rumors that the dealer is a coin doctor and has had great success doctoring coins and getting them to upgrade.
Would you look at the coin differently?
Would you still buy it? >>
I would look at the coin a bit more carefully but buy it if it looked ok. If given a choice, I'd still rather do business with someone without such a reputation, however.
A few comments:
I have heard numerous rumors about certain people being coin doctors, etc., and have heard some directly claim to be doctors and/or talk about what they had done or planned to do to coins. And, while I'm sure there is much truth involved, (probably more than I even suspect) I have never actually seen a coin doctor at work. I take that back - I have seen someone putting a bit of forehead grease on a coin to make an area less shiny or cover up a minor imperfection.
I have also seen may people dip coins (and have dipped about 10 in the past 7 years myself), but I do not consider that doctoring. Please feel free to disagree with me on that.
Off the top of my head, my personal, broad, imperfect definition of doctoring is adding something to the surface of a coin to hide imperfections and/or make it look better, etc., or removing imperfections (as in using a laser, etc.), with the intent to deceive.
As some have pointed out, even if we don't buy directly from a coin doctor, we might easily unknowingly end up with one or more of his coins. Likewise, if we don't sell directly to him, he might still end up with our coins.
Among other things, this thread was meant to be about our perceptions of people we might deal with and how that does or doesn't affect our decisions, etc.
I have an 1856 FE cent which I purchased a few years ago for a very reasonable price since it has a punch mark to the left of the date. It is a lovely coin. A coin doctor offered to buy the coin at 30% over market value and/or fix the coin for a fee so that it will show no signs of the punch mark. I refused in a defiant way. What would you do? What would others here have done?
Oreville,
I would have the mark removed if it could be done without additionally damaging the coin. Why? The coin is already damaged so what is the harm in compounding the damage if it makes the coin look more attractive to me. I would not deceive the subsequent buyer and would indeed disclose the damage and repair in the area in which it occurred.
Mark,
Thanks for another interesting thread (even with the tangents).
<< <i>There is this Buff nickle specialist here in Chicago - this guy works high caliber stuff ; RARE dates !! he starts with legidimate 64's and has perfected a toning process that duplicates the Raymond (sp ??) album lokk - hell , they look so real , he gets them in PCGS slabs and makes a bundle !!! He's been at it for many years too - and people have tried to stop him ......but he has a small network of submitters accross the country and his stuff is so good , Pcgs is at his mercy ! >>
<< <i>There is this Buff nickle specialist here in Chicago - this guy works high caliber stuff ; RARE dates !! he starts with legidimate 64's and has perfected a toning process that duplicates the Raymond (sp ??) album lokk - hell , they look so real , he gets them in PCGS slabs and makes a bundle !!! He's been at it for many years too - and people have tried to stop him ......but he has a small network of submitters accross the country and his stuff is so good , Pcgs is at his mercy ! >>
Russ, NCNE >>
............here ya' go >>
I hope thats not a sample of his work; that one looks like Bernz-O-Matic.
I have no idea what type of toning it is. It's the PR69 Buffalo from the PCGS grading guide that is rumored to be the work of the aforementioned Chicago coin doctor.
I have no idea what type of toning it is. It's the PR69 Buffalo from the PCGS grading guide that is rumored to be the work of the aforementioned Chicago coin doctor.
Russ, NCNE >>
nice. their showpiece coin is a blatant AT job
>>
um, that coin is in the finest known proof buff set, here is the set -
Edited to add: I don't really think a Benz-o-matic torch would produce this effect at least not with consistent toning around the enitre periphery of the coin. Somehow, you gotta hold it in the flame and it's usually with some type of clamp. At any rate, the hold point would show a break in the toning.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I have no idea what type of toning it is. It's the PR69 Buffalo from the PCGS grading guide that is rumored to be the work of the aforementioned Chicago coin doctor.
Russ, NCNE >>
nice. their showpiece coin is a blatant AT job
>>
um, that coin is in the finest known proof buff set, here is the set -
so since you're saying it is in the 'Finest Known proof buff set', there is no chance it is AT'd? The high dollar coins are worked on by the doctors that are most proficient in their field, and this has been reported to be one of them. A big dollar coin makes it a perfect canidate for a coin doc to make it into a bigger dollar coin. Does anyone know for sure if this coin used to reside in a PF68 holder, only to be AT'd and get a high-dollar bump into a PF69 holder based on the color? there is a good chance of that
Comments
BIG BUT---Lying or knowingly fraudulently misleading me about a coin you are trying to sell me to gain unfair advantage
in a transaction is known as criminal and civil FRAUD. Saying you have pretty colored coins an selling them truthfully is not
against the law, and I am free to buy them if I want!!!!!
morgannut2................
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i>
<< <i>No wonder you are so totally anti-slab. It fits. >>
dude, don't be a simpleton. i'm anti-slab-HYPE.
big difference
K S >>
Well Karl, how about elaborating on what kind of coin doctoring you think is OK. How about artificial frosting, artificial toning, silver putty, tooling, altered surfaces, and thumbing just to name a few?
Jerry
Don't people get arrested for that?
YES! Jerry, I think that you are on to something. The subtle difference is that selling a fake watch is stealing a brand name identity (i.e. Rolex). Selling a coin that has been modified to make it appear better is a difficult thing to explain to a judge or jury.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
Would I sell to a doctor? Wrong question. Real question is do you sell for a fixed price or on terms that allow you participate in his post-doctoring profits.
Even if you don’t want to sell to a particular dealer, once you sell the coin into the market you lose all control over where it will end up. So, once a decision to sell is made all that should matter is getting the best price in a reasonable time frame. That might mean selling in an auction where you have no control over who buys. Or you can sell it to your favorite honest dealer, but it could then change hands several times among dealers and wind up in the hands of the nogoodnik anyway.
Would I buy from a known doctor? I guess that's a bit like sleeping with a slut. You need to use protection-- in this case plastic. But the truth is that if PCGS or NCG could not tell that it was doctored how are you supposed to? Which raises the real problem–even if you buy slabbed coins from reputable dealers you have no way of knowing where that coin came from, since it may have changed hands many times before your dealer bought it. Probably the only way to really protect yourself is to buy only "virgins" from the mint or "nice girls"-- very rare coins with provenance, which for most of us would mean not buying anything at all.
CG
<< <i>Well Karl, how about elaborating on what kind of coin doctoring you think is OK. How about artificial frosting, artificial toning, silver putty, tooling, altered surfaces, and thumbing just to name a few? >>
ah, a sensible question.
in theory, if someone wants it, i guess you could state ANY coin doctoring is ok. but it sounds like your asking me PERSONALLY, so here's my worthless opinion.
i personally would (& have) buy coins that have had the following done (just a sample):
- dipped - usually would be a scarcer date though since i definitely prefer original coins
- plug a holed coin
- un-bend a bent coin
- remove severe scratches (typically graffiti) from a coin
- remove corrosion (usually severely corroded copper)
- remove etched pvc
- un-alter an altered date/mm
- remove artifical tone from a coin's surface
- remove a jewelry mount
etc.....
the specific examples you gave, artificial frosting, artificial toning, silver putty, tooling, altered surfaces, and thumbing. of those, i WOULD buy a con that's been artificially toned, say for example a bright pink 1804 half-cent in xf, if it were toned back to a brown color, i would definitely buy it. but the other alterations you mentioned, i do not care for, & would avoid.
K S
<< <i>You need to use protection-- in this case plastic. >>
i still maintain, & have always stated, that plastic affords really only a little useful protection against doctored coins - but that it also doesn't really matter, since it is NOT the best protection.
THE BEST protection is to buy ONLY WHAT YOU LIKE, & for reasons of it being a hobby, NOT A BUSINESS. so, if you happen to like colorized coins, by golly, buy them & enjoy them! you like pink large-cents? BUY THEM! you enjoy owning sky-blue state quarters? GO FOR IT!
the point is, buy something for what it IS, not what you think it "could become", ie a profit center. if you buy that gloriously rainbow-colored morgan dollar because you think your gonna get it slabed & make 10x the $$$, that's buying w/ greedy motives, & frankly, i think you deserve to get burned. but if you buy that same coin becaue you happen to ENJOY rainbows, then how can you possibly go wrong??? YOU CAN'T!!!
the bottom line always remains the same for me,
"if you like it, if you really REALLY like it, then the price does not matter."
K S
<< <i>But Karl, I think the spirit of this thread relates to coin doctors who do these kind of things, and then try to deceive collectors and the grading services into believing that these are unaltered coins. For all the things you mentioned, if the coin is sold with disclosure of the alterations, fine. But too many times these coins find their way onto the market as "no problem original" coins. >>
"deception" & "coin doctor" are 2 totally, completely separate issues, TOTALLY.
"doctoring" need not even be involved for deception to take place.
example, tell me if any of the following statements is deceptive:
"ngc will only certify original coins"
"ngc will not certify coins w/ artifiical toning"
"you can trust dealers who are members of the png"
"the coin market is hot"
K S
<< <i>that's buying w/ greedy motives >>
Greed is good.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>You're splitting hairs Karl. And you just can't wait to turn any discussion back to slabs. >>
splitting hairs???
puh-leeze, i'm being accurate. if anything, that's what "splitting hairs" means - BEING ACCURATE. & more accuracy would be helpful around here, instead of blatant blanket statements like "coin doctors deserve the death penalty"
ok, here's some more deceptions, this time slab-less:
"morgan dollars are rare"
"silver is going up"
"if you want to make $$$ in coins, only buy the highest grade you can afford" (well, maybe slightly slab-related)
"the coin market is hot"
"it's ok to dip coins because they are more valuable that way because people prefer blast-white"
"buying circulated coins is a waste of time & money because nobody collects circs"
"we have a star-rating system for our coins for eye-appeal / this coin has a five-star rating"
"coins w/ problems are totally worthless"
"you should only buy coins from professional full-time dealers since you can trust them"
why are these deceptions? because they are BLANKET STATEMENTS, w/ no supporting FACTS, just based on vague suggestion & innunendo.
<< <i>Most coin doctors are deceptive, regardless of what you want to believe. >>
nope, i just will not be hoodwinked by such blanket statements. i would believe most SCAMMERS are deceptive, since that's basically how they're defined, but most (NOT ALL) of the coin doctors i know are frank & up-front about their skills IF YOU ASK. example: allen stockton
btw, i don't necessarily consider someone who paints neon-pink whirligigs on a kennedy half a coin doctor. that's just a goof-off imo. but the easy way is to lump everyone whose practice you don't like into a single generic category of "coin doctor", which is sad, rather than focusing on specifics.
THAT is why the "coin posse" concept is a joke.
K S
<< <i>Greed is good. >>
i agree, except when greed is misused.
K S
- dipped - usually would be a scarcer date though since i definitely prefer original coins
- plug a holed coin
- un-bend a bent coin
- remove severe scratches (typically graffiti) from a coin
- remove corrosion (usually severely corroded copper)
- remove etched pvc
- un-alter an altered date/mm
- remove artifical tone from a coin's surface
- remove a jewelry mount
etc....."
Dipping a coin typically will result in removing whatever toning the coin might have had regardless of type of toning, ie. natural or artificial. Plugging a holed coin results in removing the hole. Un-bending a bent coin results in removing the bend.
How is removal accomplished by the coin doctor on an altered date or altered mintmark coin though? I ask because all of your examples, except for this one, involve a "removal" process. For example, are you saying there exists coin doctors that will remove from the population of all "1909-S V.D.B.' s" the ones they encounter where the "S" has been added to a regular 1909 V.D.B?
It might be helpful if you would give an example of one of your own coins that you know has been, acceptable to you, "un-altered" from its previously altered date or mintmark state.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
<< <i>"deception" & "coin doctor" are 2 totally, completely separate issues, TOTALLY. >>
Regardless, in case I wasn't clear in my hypotheticals, I was speaking of the "deception" aspect of "doctoring".
I will answer my own questions tomorrow.
And remember, as I said in my initial post to this thread:
<< <i>Please note, these are hypothetical situations presented for the sake of (hopeful) interest, discussion and possible (good mannered) debate >>
THAT is why the "coin posse" concept is a joke.
Dorkkarl - There are many concepts as to how a "coin posse" might work, including yours, mine and the Coin Posse's. Please tell me whose concept you refer to when you call the concept a joke. Also, please tell me what that concept is. Also, if you're referring to the Coin Posse's own concept, please tell me how you know so much about them and their concept. Thank you.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Bill
(as in, "Bill, you ignorant...")
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
but :
i do not believe a coin doctor could be prosocuted in a court of law. He / she , takes something they own ........
alters it - then sells it .
We all wax our cars - buffing out scratches,
we paint our houses - painting over rotten wood ,
we shave the hair that grows on our body , we cover blemishes with make-up .................. we get boob jobs , nose jobs, we saturate our auction pix on ebay.
We fib,we stretch the truth , we borrow thing 's and sometime's don't return them - we exagerate ..................
We wash our clothes, our dishes .............our filthy little hands
we resurface our driveways ......................we fertilize our grass and add S.T.P to our gas
we alter, change , cover up , enhance , and decieve every day of our lives
..........and NOBODY forms a posse' to hunt US down !
Jerry
By the way, dorkarl; coinguy1 is correct in clarifying his question. A coin doctor is one who doctors a coin under a veil of deception to enhance the look of the coin without proper disclosure.
Now that the question is clarified, would you keep your comments here the same or rephrase them?
Case in point:
I have an 1856 FE cent which I purchased a few years ago for a very reasonable price since it has a punch mark to the left of the date. It is a lovely coin. A coin doctor offered to buy the coin at 30% over market value and/or fix the coin for a fee so that it will show no signs of the punch mark. I refused in a defiant way. What would you do? What would others here have done?
Keep in mind that President Franklin Pierce made this punch mark to see how much stress a small cent could take.
Here is the coin:
<< <i>For example, are you saying there exists coin doctors that will remove from the population of all "1909-S V.D.B.' s" the ones they encounter where the "S" has been added to a regular 1909 V.D.B? >>
yes, ABSOLUTELY. (i don't know of anyone who considers altering dates/mm's to be "coin doctoring", rather it's fraud. ie, painting a ford pinto turbo-red is much different then gluing porsche decals on it & claiming it's a porsche.)
<< <i>It might be helpful if you would give an example of one of your own coins that you know has been, acceptable to you, "un-altered" from its previously altered date or mintmark state. >>
i no longer own it, but at 1 time, i did own a 1803 bust dollar whose date was altered to 1804. i had the coin re-altered back to 1803. imo, that's a totally, perfectly legitimate use of coin doctoring.
<< <i>Please tell me whose concept you refer to when you call the concept a joke. >>
i'm referring to the infamous "legend" thread that described all the wonderful things the coin posse was going to do & when it would be announced. strangely, even a year later, NOTHING had been announced.
can't find the thread right now, but maybe somebody else can link it?
<< <i>coinguy1 is correct in clarifying his question. A coin doctor is one who doctors a coin under a veil of deception >>
& this is exactly why i can't jump on the "death to doctors" bandwagon, because i totally disagree that ALL coin doctoring is done deceptively. implying that ALL doctoring is done under a veiil of deception automatically rules out the PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE SERVICES provided by coin doctors, again, such as allan stockton. heck, by def'n there could be no deception involved w/ the coins i've sent to him, since i knew exactly what they looked like before & after!
i think the REAL problem that your all trying to address is someone who sells a doctored coin w/out revealing such. it's plainly obvious that YOU NEED NOT BE A COIN DOCTOR TO DECEPTIVELY SELL A DOCTORED COIN.
that's why i separate "coin doctors" from "deceivers". it just simply isn't fair or useful to pronounce a blanket statement that "coin doctors are evil", & as long as that line of reasoning is pursued, NO progress will ever be made.
i've said it before many times, it's not "coin doctoring" that's evil, it's MARKETING that can be evil. there is a huge distinction. to reiterate, perfectly legitimate reasons exist to doctor coins, but legitimate reasons do NOT exist for deceptive marketing of such coins.
that's the distinction for me,
<< <i>I have an 1856 FE cent which I purchased a few years ago for a very reasonable price since it has a punch mark to the left of the date. It is a lovely coin. A coin doctor offered to buy the coin at 30% over market value and/or fix the coin for a fee so that it will show no signs of the punch mark. I refused in a defiant way. What would you do? What would others here have done? >>
me personally, i would leave the coin AS IS, but that's ME, & i have NO RIGHT to impose my judgement on others.
so the bottom line, to answer the orignal question, YES i would sell to a known coin doctor, & YES i would buy from a known coin doctor, & i would take THE RESPONSIBILITY for knowingly doing so.
K S
<< <i>Hypothetical #1 : You have a group of PCGS coins for sale and learn that you can get top dollar (a minimum of 5% more than anyone else will pay) from a coin dealer who is widely rumored (here or elsewhere) to be a coin doctor....
Would you sell your coins to him? >>
I have thought about this form time to time and my answer is yes, I would, though my preference would certainly be to sell elsewhere.
<< <i>Would it matter, if before you made your decision, you somehow learned that if he buys your coins, he will doctor one or more of them in an effort to get a higher grade at PCGS? >>
Yes, that would matter and in such a case I would not sell the coins to him.
<< <i>Would it have any effect on your decision, whether he seemed/acted like a nice guy or a jerk? >>
It would effect my decision - I have sold coins for less, to people who were pleasant, as opposed to unpleasant to deal with.
<< <i>Hypothetical #2 : You are at a coin show and ready to buy a fairly priced, great looking PCGS coin from a dealer. Your pulse is racing in anticipation and you are ready to write the check. But, you suddenly remember you had heard widespread rumors that the dealer is a coin doctor and has had great success doctoring coins and getting them to upgrade.
Would you look at the coin differently?
Would you still buy it? >>
I would look at the coin a bit more carefully but buy it if it looked ok. If given a choice, I'd still rather do business with someone without such a reputation, however.
A few comments:
I have heard numerous rumors about certain people being coin doctors, etc., and have heard some directly claim to be doctors and/or talk about what they had done or planned to do to coins. And, while I'm sure there is much truth involved, (probably more than I even suspect) I have never actually seen a coin doctor at work. I take that back - I have seen someone putting a bit of forehead grease on a coin to make an area less shiny or cover up a minor imperfection.
I have also seen may people dip coins (and have dipped about 10 in the past 7 years myself), but I do not consider that doctoring. Please feel free to disagree with me on that.
Off the top of my head, my personal, broad, imperfect definition of doctoring is adding something to the surface of a coin to hide imperfections and/or make it look better, etc., or removing imperfections (as in using a laser, etc.), with the intent to deceive.
As some have pointed out, even if we don't buy directly from a coin doctor, we might easily unknowingly end up with one or more of his coins. Likewise, if we don't sell directly to him, he might still end up with our coins.
Among other things, this thread was meant to be about our perceptions of people we might deal with and how that does or doesn't affect our decisions, etc.
Thanks for your comments.
Oreville,
I would have the mark removed if it could be done without additionally damaging the coin. Why? The coin is already damaged so what is the harm in compounding the damage if it makes the coin look more attractive to me. I would not deceive the subsequent buyer and would indeed disclose the damage and repair in the area in which it occurred.
Mark,
Thanks for another interesting thread (even with the tangents).
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Maybe Dan Rather or Oliver Stone will be doing an investigative story on him?
<< <i>
<< <i>There is this Buff nickle specialist here in Chicago - this guy works high caliber stuff ; RARE dates !! he starts with legidimate 64's and has perfected a toning process that duplicates the Raymond (sp ??) album lokk - hell , they look so real , he gets them in PCGS slabs and makes a bundle !!!
He's been at it for many years too - and people have tried to stop him ......but he has a small network of submitters accross the country and his stuff is so good , Pcgs is at his mercy ! >>
Russ, NCNE >>
............here ya' go
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There is this Buff nickle specialist here in Chicago - this guy works high caliber stuff ; RARE dates !! he starts with legidimate 64's and has perfected a toning process that duplicates the Raymond (sp ??) album lokk - hell , they look so real , he gets them in PCGS slabs and makes a bundle !!!
He's been at it for many years too - and people have tried to stop him ......but he has a small network of submitters accross the country and his stuff is so good , Pcgs is at his mercy ! >>
Russ, NCNE >>
............here ya' go >>
I hope thats not a sample of his work; that one looks like Bernz-O-Matic.
<< <i>
<< <i>That's not Wayte Raymond toning Russ. >>
I have no idea what type of toning it is. It's the PR69 Buffalo from the PCGS grading guide that is rumored to be the work of the aforementioned Chicago coin doctor.
Russ, NCNE >>
nice. their showpiece coin is a blatant AT job
thus I would not buy or subsidize such a
creature.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That's not Wayte Raymond toning Russ. >>
I have no idea what type of toning it is. It's the PR69 Buffalo from the PCGS grading guide that is rumored to be the work of the aforementioned Chicago coin doctor.
Russ, NCNE >>
nice. their showpiece coin is a blatant AT job
um, that coin is in the finest known proof buff set, here is the set -
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=45
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
Edited to add: I don't really think a Benz-o-matic torch would produce this effect at least not with consistent toning around the enitre periphery of the coin. Somehow, you gotta hold it in the flame and it's usually with some type of clamp. At any rate, the hold point would show a break in the toning.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Bring back Mark Feld! >>
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
He even lets me nibble a few of the better colors. However
the crayons never taste as good as they look.
Camelot
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That's not Wayte Raymond toning Russ. >>
I have no idea what type of toning it is. It's the PR69 Buffalo from the PCGS grading guide that is rumored to be the work of the aforementioned Chicago coin doctor.
Russ, NCNE >>
nice. their showpiece coin is a blatant AT job
um, that coin is in the finest known proof buff set, here is the set -
http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=45 >>
so since you're saying it is in the 'Finest Known proof buff set', there is no chance it is AT'd? The high dollar coins are worked on by the doctors that are most proficient in their field, and this has been reported to be one of them. A big dollar coin makes it a perfect canidate for a coin doc to make it into a bigger dollar coin. Does anyone know for sure if this coin used to reside in a PF68 holder, only to be AT'd and get a high-dollar bump into a PF69 holder based on the color? there is a good chance of that