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You can't have it both ways
jhdfla
Posts: 3,030 ✭✭✭
There is currently a discussion on another forum, which is not allowed to be mentioned here, regarding the Long Beach situation and coin docs. I hesitate to post this here, without most of you having read the other discussion which is ongoing, but my basic points are sort of outlined in this response. I make no attacks on anyone, just would like to have some questions answered...
I still have not seen the real points I am trying to make addressed here. How can one or two guys be responsible for all the doctored coins in TPG’s, you have got to be beyond naïve to believe that is the case, there are far more guys than you can imagine who play with coins. Fact of the matter is, a lot of them are so good, most other dealers can’t pick it up, and it goes without saying that if these coins are in slabs the graders aren’t picking it up either. Now if you define any action which alters the surface of a coin to enhance it’s value, then all the things that are done to coins, including dipping, can be considered doctoring. Why then do the services continue to slab dipped coins, even when they know they are dipped? Take it one step further; even CAC approves coins that are dipped. You can’t have it both ways folks, either all alterations to a coins surface have to be considered doctoring, or none. It’s disingenuous to say one form of doctoring is ok, and another is not. If a dealer who rails against coin doctors and the services places product in collectors hands that they know is dipped, they are just being a hypocrite. By screaming about how bad the services are and coin docs, are you are doing is creating an atmosphere where the services tighten beyond belief for any little nit picking thing, reduces the supply of coins which hurts other dealers and I would say collectors as well, as they are forced to pay higher prices for less coins available due to the TPG tightening. Submissions fall off, so the TPG’s suffer. Do you think a large submitter like Heritage will continue to submit coins if they get like 2 in 20 certified? No one wants to acknowledge that so many coins that are in slabs have been “enhanced” in one way or another, that it would be impossible for either service to remove them from the marketplace. I wish someone in the numismatic community would address my questions in an intelligent unbiased fashion, and open the discourse to this dirty little secret that everyone knows about, but no one wants to acknowledge, that many of the coins in your possession Mr. and Mrs. Collector, probably have been enhanced at some time or another.
John
I still have not seen the real points I am trying to make addressed here. How can one or two guys be responsible for all the doctored coins in TPG’s, you have got to be beyond naïve to believe that is the case, there are far more guys than you can imagine who play with coins. Fact of the matter is, a lot of them are so good, most other dealers can’t pick it up, and it goes without saying that if these coins are in slabs the graders aren’t picking it up either. Now if you define any action which alters the surface of a coin to enhance it’s value, then all the things that are done to coins, including dipping, can be considered doctoring. Why then do the services continue to slab dipped coins, even when they know they are dipped? Take it one step further; even CAC approves coins that are dipped. You can’t have it both ways folks, either all alterations to a coins surface have to be considered doctoring, or none. It’s disingenuous to say one form of doctoring is ok, and another is not. If a dealer who rails against coin doctors and the services places product in collectors hands that they know is dipped, they are just being a hypocrite. By screaming about how bad the services are and coin docs, are you are doing is creating an atmosphere where the services tighten beyond belief for any little nit picking thing, reduces the supply of coins which hurts other dealers and I would say collectors as well, as they are forced to pay higher prices for less coins available due to the TPG tightening. Submissions fall off, so the TPG’s suffer. Do you think a large submitter like Heritage will continue to submit coins if they get like 2 in 20 certified? No one wants to acknowledge that so many coins that are in slabs have been “enhanced” in one way or another, that it would be impossible for either service to remove them from the marketplace. I wish someone in the numismatic community would address my questions in an intelligent unbiased fashion, and open the discourse to this dirty little secret that everyone knows about, but no one wants to acknowledge, that many of the coins in your possession Mr. and Mrs. Collector, probably have been enhanced at some time or another.
John
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Comments
Dipping a coin does less harm than many here would like to believe and to dip or not dip is a question of relevance.
Dipping a crusty circulated coin is just plain stupid however popping a modern uncirculated coin in a preventative dip is not. I have no hesitation in dipping my silver eagles prior to having them slabbed as I know that they have the potential for milk spotting due to some unseen and as yet undefined contaminant on the coin. Anything I can do to prevent that spotting is, IMO, not doctoring but preventative conservation. It does nothing to enhance the value of the coin, it simply is an insurance at preventing future damage.
Altering a coin to artificially increase its value is doctoring. Plain and simple! Whether its putty to fill in hits, laser smoothing, soldering, artificial toning or whatever. If you've taken a piece of crap coin and altered it to not look like a piece of crap, then you've doctored it!
Edited for better clarity.
The name is LEE!
Ok, I'm gonna post the entire discourse at the other forum, which may get me banned, but maybe someone will get it and respond. Here goes...
From: jhd (Fri 29 Feb 2008 03:36:27 EST)
My comment that was deleted was that I've known both guys who gave Laura grief @LB for 30 years, one is a good friend... I think in all fairness the other side should be presented as well.
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 07:51:30 EST)
What other side is there to presented?
They attacked me with NO justificaion.
Until now, they used to BRAG OPENLY about what they do to coins.
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 07:53:04 EST)
BOTH Have appologized to me.
However, I am not so sure one of them really understands why he is wrong.
There is NO excuse for anyone who doctors coins-period.
The sad part, both are brilliant numismatists who don't need to do that.
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 07:54:53 EST)
The good news, I would have to say the coin docs do very much know the message right now.
It probably won't stop some, but its a good start.
Now if only the grading services could make nice Saints!
From: Supercar (Fri 29 Feb 2008 09:22:01 EST)
you choose your battles and stand by your beliefs until the war is won ..... you don`t cut and run with your soldiers still on the field
From: Supercar (Fri 29 Feb 2008 09:35:28 EST)
he kicked you out for saying what you believed and telling the truth; and now you say he's working hard to fix things - the only thing he's doing is damage control to fend off law suits and keep market share
From: Supercar (Fri 29 Feb 2008 09:43:51 EST)
you are a contender - your somebody ;you stood up for the little guy that has no voice .....i'm sorry you threw in your gloves
From: BB (Fri 29 Feb 2008 12:31:27 EST)
dhd . . I will always publish both sides of any story I run. Any person can post a comment here or email me at askbiddle@msn.com
However troll talk or obscene comments will be deleted.
Again I apologize for accidently deleted your earlier post.
From: pbfloyd (Fri 29 Feb 2008 15:08:58 EST)
Sounds like both sides have been heard. Probably wont hear anymore out of DHD..........
From: BB (Fri 29 Feb 2008 15:12:53 EST)
Hi Pb. Glad to see you posting. Hope all is well with you and the family.
Hopefully there will be more said about coin doc names but I can tell you that the CU forum is a lost cause on the issue but I loved MrEureka's what to do with a pile of doctored coins.
From: jhd (Fri 29 Feb 2008 17:19:09 EST)
First, my original post had no troll qualities or obscene comments... I trust BB will verify this. BTW, I am jhd, not DHD, and you'll hear plenty more out of me...
From: jhd (Fri 29 Feb 2008 17:25:55 EST)
There was no apology by my friend to Laura at LB, because there was nothing to apologise about...
From: BB (Fri 29 Feb 2008 17:27:10 EST)
jhd . . sorry about the confusion of initials.
Also the troll reference was not pointed at you but to others who were spamming the board in the same time period you made your post. I had to delete their posts.
From: BB (Fri 29 Feb 2008 17:30:28 EST)
About who apologized to who I am not sure who we are talking about so their initials would be fine.
Then Laura can respond or either one of you or any party involved can just email me at askbiddle@msn.com and I will publish what appears to be the case.
From: jhd (Fri 29 Feb 2008 17:34:54 EST)
He had her over for the holiday's and offered his hospitality and a homecooked meal to Laura, after calling for his demise in a Aug 24 posting on Legends website not realise by my friend until right before LB..
From: jhd (Fri 29 Feb 2008 17:39:03 EST)
I think it's also ridiculous that the same people who rail against the coin docs are the same ones buying their coins at auction, mostly because they can't tell the difference between original and doctored anyway.. so instead of buying them dealer to dealer, they buy them at auction.
From: BB (Fri 29 Feb 2008 17:54:18 EST)
jhd . . I want to continue the discussion and we will but first I have to say BB just posted:
BREAKING NEWS on front page of BiddlesBank.com
From: BB (Fri 29 Feb 2008 18:07:52 EST)
jhd . . well I have to admit that was an embarassing oversight by your friend to invite someone over for dinner that had been criticizing you without your knowing it. I can see where he was ticked off, even though it was a 7 month delayed reaction.
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 21:32:57 EST)
Ok, then one appologized. I dunno, I usually remember what I do hear.
Since when am I NOT supposed to speak to coin docs at all? If that were so, I wouldn't say hi to a substantail amount of dealers.
I have NO reason to make a claim that they appologized.
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 21:36:59 EST)
While I am furious with doc for his coin endevors, he is a genuine nice person outside of coins.
Am I supposed to hate him for his one flaw? I dunno, I've only known him for 25+ years...
From: jhd (Fri 29 Feb 2008 21:38:48 EST)
Laura, on page one it clearly says, and I quote,"From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 07:53:04 EST)
BOTH Have appologized to me.'
Not only can you speak to them any time you want, you've probably been buying their coins backdoored at auctions for longer than you think...
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 21:39:28 EST)
As much as I might not like it at all, it is his right to do what he does in coins.
And it is my right to help rid the business of people who harm coins.
Mark my words, even though I have appologized to PCGS-I am still fighting coin docs and overgrading hard. I am still a force.
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 21:42:44 EST)
Are you saying its ok for him to mess with coins in his easy bake oven and put them in auction???
JHD-why haven't YOU stood up to him and ask him to stop???
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 21:46:22 EST)
Mark my words, I am in communication with BOTH Salzberg and Hall about all the crappy coins out there and all the bad stuff.
My applogy was in no way throwing in the towel.
And people like Mr. Bill and Nutty Boy, well they (did) alter coins. They used to brag about it. That is a FACT.
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 22:23:24 EST)
About my appology to PCGS: I also wish for the idiots and conspiracy theorists to know I was never ever threatened with a law suit or any action.
From: Dell33 (Fri 29 Feb 2008 22:38:15 EST)
Laura...Did they both apologize to you like you said?
Is jhd correct when he says you are incorrect with that statement?
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 22:50:43 EST)
I 100% heard a clear appology for being yelled at. I can only assume someone is denying it and being macho in front of his friends.
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 22:52:29 EST)
I admire his loyalty to his pals. He also would not take a postion at CAC identifying messed with coins because he didn't want to rat out his pals....Forget about them ruing the coin biz, freinds are worth more to him!
From: Laura Sperber (Fri 29 Feb 2008 22:54:47 EST)
I HATE the fact he doctors coins. In that regard he shoul dbe punished.
However, as a person, he IS VERY nice. Coin doctoring is VERY BAD-but it is not murder.
There is no reason for me not to talk to him outside of coins.
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 05:58:52 EST)
Laura, do you honestly think if I asked him or anybody to stop they would? When you consider the fact that probably more than 60% of all 18th and 19th century TPG coins have been played with at some time or another, most of them undectectable, what good would it do?
From: Izzy Switt (Sat 01 Mar 2008 06:30:52 EST)
jhd, it is really sad that your s-called friend and supposedly "nice person" can't make an honest living.
From: Laura Sperber (Sat 01 Mar 2008 07:33:56 EST)
JHD-maybe u should ask him to stop messing w/coins.
Even if he does not stop-if enough people say something, he might get the hint.
Knowing he is doing this and not doing anything makes you part of the problem too.
From: Laura Sperber (Sat 01 Mar 2008 07:37:18 EST)
How happy would you be if your friend steals from you every day?
You would not.
Coins docs not only ruin coins-what they do can be considered stealing.
Sure, I can hang w/them. But I will attack his day job if they are bad.
From: Laura Sperber (Sat 01 Mar 2008 07:39:31 EST)
The sad part is, the guy is 10x smarter than me. Look at the business I have built in coins. He could have gone 100x farther had he not had to cheat.
Do not feel sorry for him. I do not.
From: pbfloyd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 10:23:34 EST)
This is an amazing conversation.
It took an unbiased platform like
Biddles Bank to finally get this out in the open. Thank you Biddles
for providing this site. Once again you have scooped the coin world.
From: BB (Sat 01 Mar 2008 10:32:33 EST)
Hey PB . . I'm leaving you in charge today. Off to a coin show but will check in this evening.
This has been a good dialog on coin docs but it still has a long way to go to see both sides.
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:33:06 EST)
I still have not seen the real points I am trying to make addressed here. How can one or two guys be responsible for all the doctored coins in TPG’s, you have got to be beyond naïve to believe that is the case, there are far more guys than you can imagine who play with coins.
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:33:51 EST)
Fact of the matter is, a lot of them are so good, most other dealers can’t pick it up, and it goes without saying that if these coins are in slabs the graders aren’t picking it up either. Now if you define any action which alters the surface of a coin to enhance it’s value,
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:34:34 EST)
, then all the things that are done to coins, including dipping, can be considered doctoring. Why then do the services continue to slab dipped coins, even when they know they are dipped? Take it one step further; even CAC approves coins that are dipped.
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:35:32 EST)
You can’t have it both ways folks, either all alterations to a coins surface have to be considered doctoring, or none. It’s disingenuous to say one form of doctoring is ok, and another is not. If a dealer who rails against coin doctors and the services places product
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:38:31 EST)
in collectors hands that they know is dipped, they are just being a hypocrite. By screaming about how bad the services are and coin docs, are you are doing is creating an atmosphere where the services tighten beyond belief for any little nit picking thing,
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:39:11 EST)
, reduces the supply of coins which hurts other dealers and I would say collectors as well, as they are forced to pay higher prices for less coins available due to the TPG tightening. Submissions fall off, so the TPG’s suffer.
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:39:48 EST)
Do you think a large submitter like Heritage will continue to submit coins if they get like 2 in 20 certified? No one wants to acknowledge that so many coins that are in slabs have been “enhanced” in one way or another,
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:40:26 EST)
that it would be impossible for either service to remove them from the marketplace. I wish someone in the numismatic community would address my questions in an intelligent unbiased fashion, and open the discourse to this dirty little secret that everyone knows about,
From: jhd (Sat 01 Mar 2008 14:42:06 EST)
but no one wants to acknowledge, that many of the coins in your possession Mr. and Mrs. Collector, probably have been enhanced at some time or another.
John
That said,
I believe that given the coins we have, we have to live with the fact that most classic coins, most as in over 50% have been "touched"
I believe that we have to have some sort of gradient as to what we can and should/have to live with vs what is over the line.
Shooting someone who is charging at you with a chain saw is taking a life, but very different from shooting someone who is asking you what time it is, also taking a life.
Methods that have been employed historically to conserve or preserve coins, like oiling copper or dipping silver results in a worked coin, but should not result in a coin shunned by the collector community, whereas a piece of gold that has been puttied or a silver bust that has been whizzed is over the line.
One bag of Morgans that once opened reveal a high percentage of toners has obviously been exposed to different atmospheric conditions than a bag of Morgans that contain brilliant coins, is the first bag condemned for its storage method or is the second bag penalized for its "cleaner" storage?
This is a tricky topic as you well know.
If someone honestly tries to conserve a coin and ends up with a more valuable coin than earlier is this bad?
If someone tools a proof gold coin to enhance its value is this bad?
I think one is bad while the other isn't.
This topic has to be discussed, but it has to be discussed rationally.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
roadrunner
<< <i>Services have knowingly put professionally doctored coins in holders. >>
They sure have.
Lets also think about the guy coming home from work on payday back in say....1821
This is long before cars and a time when the road leading to your home was covered with horse cr@p.
He accidentally drops an AU 1814 small date capped bust dime in the road. When he gets home he gives his wife all his money (sound familiar guys
Should this coin be body bagged by the major services due to an old cleaning?
Is this coin forever shunned by the numismatic community?
Would you pass on this coin because it has some old hairlines?
Surely we have to be able to say that this coin, while "doctored" has to be put in a different camp than the
coin that has been tooled then tumbled then stripped then re-colored then sent in to the TPG's.
Now this coin should be shunned....unless it has really good rainbows right
Many classic coins have had their surfaces altered, however, this is accepted by the vast majority of collectors and TPGs.
Personally, I feel most coins have been in some way, either enhanced, played with, dipped, AT'd, very slowly AT'd, touched with, cleaned, washed, you name it, some form of 'unnatural' process.
Most brilliant white old coins have probably been dipped.
The fact is, 90% of these are market acceptable and OK for slabbing.
Where do you draw the line?
This is our current dilema and only time will tell how many of these will be accepted by all.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)