how come maris never made the HOF?

BassPro77 · February 13, 2008 6:44AM

Home run record for 30 some odd years not good enough.
i'd pick him

BobaFett72 · February 13, 2008 6:48AM

had some great seasons, deserves an honorable mention; doesnt have the career numbers probably to justify the votes? Certainly better than some of the clowns in the Hall though lol.

perkdog · February 13, 2008 6:51AM

Only 3 years of 30+ HRs and career .260 BA, the numbers are just not there IMO

nam812 · February 13, 2008 6:53AM

Not saying he belongs, but he was also back to back MVP, and a great outfielder.

F1ferrari · February 13, 2008 6:55AM

If you compare Maris with Dale Murphy (the only 2 time MVP winners NOT in the HOF), their career stats are very similar, with Murphy probably having the advantage. I think they just didn't put up great total numbers, but had some really good seasons during their careers.

gumbyfan · February 13, 2008 7:12AM

markj111 · February 13, 2008 7:15AM

He was not productive enough. He hit more than 30 HRs three times in his career. He played in more than 100 games 9 times. He had only a handful of top ten finishes in any any category other than in his two MVP years (neither of which he deserved). He won one gold glove. He was a fine player, but not HOF worthy. His last year in the bigs was at age 33, and he was terrible that year.

digicat · February 13, 2008 7:16AM

Roger Maris had a few good years, but didn't keep it up. If he had more seasons like he did in 60, 61, and 62, he'd be in the Hall, but he just didn't do that. Though he was very good in those 3 years, he didn't utterly dominate the league.

TomGshotput · February 13, 2008 7:27AM

I would vote for him for being famous, but overall he did less to help his team than Oliva or Parker or several other rightfielders so it is real easy to see why he isn't in the Hall-of-Fame

BassPro77 · February 13, 2008 7:29AM

<< He was not productive enough. He hit more than 30 HRs three times in his career. He played in more than 100 games 9 times. He had only a handful of top ten finishes in any any category other than in his two MVP years (neither of which he deserved). He won one gold glove. He was a fine player, but not HOF worthy. His last year in the bigs was at age 33, and he was terrible that year.[/q

for the record he had 3 mvps 1960,61, and 1964 and he was 34 years old and 19 days

maris stats

WinPitcher · February 13, 2008 7:34AM

Bill he had 2 mvp's the 3rd one you claim he was 25th in voting.

Hard to say though that he didn't deserve the 2 he did win and his last yr.s he
helped lead the Cards to the World Championship (67 and 68) NL pennant

Steve

Knuckles · February 13, 2008 7:40AM

They should throw him in on a ballot along with only roid monkeys one year and he'll be the only one to get into the hall.. just an extra slap in the face to Bonds and co.

BassPro77 · February 13, 2008 7:43AM

Hard to say though that he didn't deserve the 2 he did win and his last yr.s he
helped lead the Cards to the World Championship (67 and 68) NL pennant

Steve >>

your right, but 25th out of how many players? alot. still good, i think.

so if he not all that great, why do people pay top dollar for his cards?

Stone193 · February 13, 2008 7:43AM

I liked Maris immensely.

He was the perfect player - he had grace and style on the ball-field that momentous year of breaking Ruth's record.

But HOF? He's just not good enough - over the entire career.

Special accomplishment mention in the Hall? Definitely.

Just my take.
mike.5

rube26105 · February 13, 2008 7:58AM

Home run record for 30 some odd years not good enough.
i'd pick him

me too-if jim bunning is in there and other that dont really have it- the guy that broke ruths record sure should be-even if the commish screwed him with a new pitcher at last at bat before going over ruths game #'s ,i think he woud have tied it

Goot · February 13, 2008 7:59AM

<< If you compare Maris with Dale Murphy (the only 2 time MVP winners NOT in the HOF), their career stats are very similar, with Murphy probably having the advantage. I think they just didn't put up great total numbers, but had some really good seasons during their careers. >>

Murph CLEARLY has the advantage. Almost 800 more career hits, 123 more home runs, etc. The only major stat that I see Maris having any advantage at all over Murph is his SLG percentage and that is by .007 points. Yeah, Murphy did play 6 years longer. However, that is part of what makes hall of famers, hall of famers. They put together numerous good/great seasons and have longevity. Murph= Winner, which also means that Murph> Maris and since Murphy didn't make the hall, "no soup for you" either Mr. Maris.

Also, I'm not trying to sound mean or anything Bill/ Basspro, but are you very familiar with baseball and it's history. This is a serious question because I know you're in England and I'm not sure if you fully understand some of the nuances of the game, just like we wouldn't understand a ton about cricket (although I know that Brian Lara is the man because I lived in Scotland for a year).

WinPitcher · February 13, 2008 8:00AM

Bill

25th in voting prolly meant he got 1 vote, yes I agree if you compare that to all 300+
players in his league it is good.

Why do people pay top dollar for his cards?

61 homers in 61

Yankee collectors

Cardinal collectors

Steve

storm888 · February 13, 2008 8:01AM

BOTH Maris and Murph should be in the HOF.

I understand BB math pretty well. BUT, if Rose and others are
excluded for "bad behavior," SOME good guys need extra points
for "good behavior." Murph's behavior was close to sterling. Maris
was far from a terrible boy.

The link is to the full 2006 FORBES article.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/0410/033.html

excerpt from the 2006 FORBES article:

All this brings us back to Roger Maris. In 1961 he slammed out his 61 home runs during baseball's first 162-game season. Ruth hit his 60 in a season of 154 games, the standard length from 1904 to 1960. But few recall that Maris hit his 60th home run in his 684th plate appearance. It took Ruth 689.

"Best All-Around Baseball Player I Ever Saw"

Maris has never made it into the Baseball Hall of Fame, and that is a scandal. The case against Maris is this: a somewhat short career (1957 to 1968) and a weak batting average (.260 career). Maris batted only .269 in his famous year of 1961. It didn't help that he was extremely shy, a cold North Dakotan of Croatian heritage, and unpopular with fans, unlike teammate Mickey Mantle.

The case for Maris to be named to the Hall is much more powerful. He was a two-time league MVP winner (1960, 1961). Of the 11 Major Leaguers who have won back-to-back MVPs and are eligible for the Hall, only Maris and Dale Murphy have not been inducted. Maris' low batting average isn't all that damaging. Baseball statistics gurus, such as Bill James, have shown that batting average may be the most overrated stat in the game. Maris walked a lot and drove people home, including himself 61 times in 1961.

Mickey Mantle said this: "Roger Maris was the best all-around baseball player I ever saw."

Maris was a Golden Glove right fielder with a howitzer arm. He was an extremely fast runner. In 1951, as a high school footballer at Fargo, N.D.'s Shanley High, Maris returned four kickoffs for touchdowns in a single game.

What about the short career? In 1965 Maris developed hand problems. He couldn't check his powerful swing, which left him vulnerable to a high rate of strikeouts. So he instead became a slap hitter, a role he played on the 1967 world champion St. Louis Cardinals. Had Maris had access to today's huge advances in sports medicine, it's likely he could have enjoyed a longer career as a slugger.

Steroids began to trickle into American sports in the mid-1960s. A decade later Eastern bloc women on steroids began obliterating every track and field record. Today any high-level sport demanding bursts of strength or speed is suspect. Users have been one step ahead of testers--almost always.

However, 1961 was still an age of innocence. Roger Maris was 6 feet tall and 197 pounds when he began that season. By season's end, wracked by tension and smoking cigarettes like a fiend--which might have contributed to his death at 51 from lymphoma--Maris was down to 185 pounds.

Do you think any 185-pounder could hit 61 home runs today? Not a chance. Maris belongs in the Hall.

Read Rich Karlgaard's daily blog at http://blogs.forbes.com/digitalrules or visit his home page at www.karlgaard.com

WinPitcher · February 13, 2008 8:02AM

Murph= Winner,

What exactly did 'Murphy' win?

I don't recall him being on any championship teams.

Steve

nam812 · February 13, 2008 8:02AM

<< Murph CLEARLY has the advantage. Almost 800 more career hits, 123 more home runs, etc. The only major stat that I see Maris having any advantage at all over Murph is his SLG percentage and that is by .007 points. Yeah, Murphy did play 6 years longer............. >>

Says the 16 yr old.

digicat · February 13, 2008 8:10AM

<< << Murph CLEARLY has the advantage. Almost 800 more career hits, 123 more home runs, etc. The only major stat that I see Maris having any advantage at all over Murph is his SLG percentage and that is by .007 points. Yeah, Murphy did play 6 years longer............. >>

Says the 16 yr old. >>

He's a lot further from death than you.

nam812 · February 13, 2008 8:18AM

<< He's a lot further from death than you. >>

Now there's a very well thought out sentence.

storm888 · February 13, 2008 8:23AM

"He's a lot further from death than you. "

///////////////////////////////////////////

Can I borrow your crystal ball?

Nobody knows how long anybody will live.

Overrated · February 13, 2008 8:46AM

Should be in just for class alone!

F1ferrari · February 13, 2008 8:59AM

<< Should be in just for class alone! >>

For class, both Maris and Murphy would have been first ballot HOFers.

digicat · February 13, 2008 9:07AM

<< << He's a lot further from death than you. >>

Now there's a very well thought out sentence. >>

Why thank you. I pride myself on my prophetic ability.

When you invoke someone's age during a discussion where age is unrelated to the topic (and utterly meaningless), you're opening the floor for yahoos like me to start making weird comments. So, thanks! Bwahahahaha!

BassPro77 · February 13, 2008 9:22AM

<Also, I'm not trying to sound mean or anything Bill/ Basspro, but are you very familiar with baseball and it's history. This is a serious question because I know you're in England and I'm not sure if you fully understand some of the nuances of the game, just like we wouldn't understand a ton about cricket (although I know that Brian Lara is the man because I lived in Scotland for a year).>

First of all, I'm not a reject, second of all, if you know I live in England you've most likely seen my profile and it says AIR FORCE. (do I need to change it to U.S. Air Force) Just along for the free ride. I was born and raised in Chicago 18 years. I have lived in the states for 24 of my whopping 30 years, and I am A DIE HARD CUBS FAN. I pay the hundred and some dollars a year just to watch them play on line. third of all, I don't even think the people who play cricket understand the rules. I know I don't. I do like RUGBY though. (different story)

dalemurphycollector · February 13, 2008 9:29AM

I maybe just a little biased here but I say "Let Murphy IN!!!!!" Only Mike Schimdt more HR's in the 80's than Murphy. Back-to-back MVP's. One of the dominent players of that decade. I think thats enough.

Goot · February 13, 2008 9:39AM

<< <Also, I'm not trying to sound mean or anything Bill/ Basspro, but are you very familiar with baseball and it's history. This is a serious question because I know you're in England and I'm not sure if you fully understand some of the nuances of the game, just like we wouldn't understand a ton about cricket (although I know that Brian Lara is the man because I lived in Scotland for a year).>

First of all, I'm not a reject, second of all, if you know I live in England you've most likely seen my profile and it says AIR FORCE. (do I need to change it to U.S. Air Force) Just along for the free ride. I was born and raised in Chicago 18 years. I have lived in the states for 24 of my whopping 30 years, and I am A DIE HARD CUBS FAN. I pay the hundred and some dollars a year just to watch them play on line. third of all, I don't even think the people who play cricket understand the rules. I know I don't. I do like RUGBY though. (different story) >>

Alright then dude, if you're going to get all pissy I can play that game too. I don't know about you but I don't click on every person's profile, I found out you live in England from another thread where you mentioned it. Wasn't aware you were a reject either.

The reason I question your knowledge of the game is simply because you look at Mr. Maris's career stats and they are NOWHERE near the standard that the HOF has put out (yes, I understand there are some headscratchers in there along the line). 275 Home Runs when the norm is about 400 to just gain consideration. 1300 and something hits when 2000 is normally needed for consideration as well as a .260 batting average which isn't that great. Forget the name, forget the hype around them, and just look at cold hard facts and you see a good/great player that put up some phenomenal seasons but just couldn't muster a career of it all. He also only played in 120 games 7 times in a 12 year career. That's more than 40 missed games in 5 years, which makes you wonder what his career would have been like if he made it all the way through those years. You take away the 61 home runs in '61 and he drops down to 214 career homeruns and from an average of about 23 homeruns to under 20 homeruns a season. While it doesn't seem like a huge discrepency, those 4 homeruns over a career is a big difference.

If we judged players off of a few great seasons, Adrian Beltre would be a first ballot hall of famer for the year he put up 48 home runs despite the fact he has just above 200 HRs in 2 less seasons than Roger.

My boy Chipper could retire today and be a lock to get in if some of you guys were on the Committee. (I wouldn't mind if you guys were for his voting though.

)

WinPitcher · February 13, 2008 9:59AM

I agree Murphy should be in.

Steve

baseballfanatic · February 13, 2008 10:06AM

Theres more to the Hall of Fame than just numbers.
Yaz only averaged 22 HR's per 162 game season.....

Goot · February 13, 2008 10:26AM

<< Theres more to the Hall of Fame than just numbers.
Yaz only averaged 22 HR's per 162 game season..... >>

Baseball is a game of numbers though. I also never judged whether or not Maris is a HOFer on his average HR's per season. I just threw out the stat that without his big season, his numbers would be very low for a HOFer.

Yaz also has over 3400 hits while Maris has just over 1300. You gotta have either power, average, or both. Maris has neither as far as career numbers go.

Obviously there's not more to the Hall than numbers considering the fact Maris isn't in.

zippy · February 14, 2008 7:33AM

To be a HOF'er u have to be one the best of your era
One great yr doesn't make it to the Hall
One record doesn't cut it
A entire career of being one of the best at your position is the key to entry to Cooperstown

I'm glad u don't vote for entry to the HOF

fiveniner · February 14, 2008 8:15AM

Roger and Dale both get my votes.

markj111 · February 14, 2008 8:41AM

Maris has a better case for MVP in 60 than in 61. He was not as good offensively as Mantle either year, and Mantle played a more demanding defensive position. I referred earlier to the fact that his last season was at age 33; he turned 34 a few days before the season ended. If you want to make your judgment on fact rather than emotion and BS, go to www.baseball-reference.com.

markj111 · February 14, 2008 8:52AM

BTW, the MVP voting was extremely close both years. In 1960, Maris outpointed him 225-222, even though Mantle had two more 1st place votes. Brooks was a close 3rd, with 211. In 61 Maris won 202-198, with Jim Gentile a more distant 3rd.

Bill James wrote at one time that the writers did not want to give it to Mantle every year, so they would sometimes pick the next best candidate.

how come maris never made the HOF?

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