I'm an eBay seller and also unhappy about the new policy.
For those who are still selling on eBay, you might want to consider joining SQUARE TRADE. It isn't cheap (I think I pay $80/year or something like that to be a member), but they do have the authority to remove unwarranted negative feedback -- which is sort of like a little insurance policy against unfair negs.
I assume that they will still be able to do that after the changes are implemented in May.
Please visit our eBay store: FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback) ** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
9 out of 10 times it is buyers simply being unreasonable, expecting too much, or not giving the seller a chance to right an honest mistake. Buyers should not be exempt from negative feedback.
Where did you get "9 out of 10" from? There are many many examples on these Forums where Retalitory Negatives are given for counterfeit, cleaned, misgraded, or photoshopped coins.
<< <i>Maybe they need to change the "negative FB score" piece to something like "buyer leaves negative feedback for the seller more than 5% of the time" (or whatever threshold turns out to be appropriate). >>
Among other ideas, this is one of the things I suggested to my account rep. I got the impression that the new management really is interested in the input of sellers and if they find merit, they will tweak it before it goes live. Of course, eBay's definition of "merit" may not revolve around common sense.
In my opinion, the new feedback policy is the best move made by eBay in a long time. Feedback is currently meaningless, since both parties hold each other hostage. It’s beyond stupid as it stands now, and it borders on complete silliness. eBay recognizes this.
The new policy will force sellers to deliver, or their rating will suffer greatly. As far a ‘buyer feedback rating’ goes, frankly, who cares? Legit feedback ratings of sellers are what’s important here (i.e. trust), and this policy will drive us in that direction. With this new policy, we will soon be separating the wheat from the chaff. Man, I bet borderline/bad sellers hate this change.
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
<< <i>If a seller was clearly in the wrong or negligent and leaves a neg for the buyer, yes that is retaliation. But how many of these are clearcut? 9 out of 10 times it is buyers simply being unreasonable, expecting too much, or not giving the seller a chance to right an honest mistake >>
John,
I can see how you might believe that to be the case. As an excellent seller, when you do run in to a problem it's likely to be legitimately the buyer's problem. In reality, though, there are thousands of sellers who automatically retaliate for any neutral or negative feedback just so they can bogus up their percentage by forcing mutual withdrawal.
Good sellers don't like it either Dave. I think there are just as many bad buyers as there are bad sellers (if not more) if you define a "bad seller" as non-payment, bidding without reading the listing first to check policies, weaseling out of deals, etc.... how can sellers know who is a high risk if the buyers can't get negged. It's completely insane. You will see more buyers backing out of purchases now with no fear of getting negged. Very bad for honest sellers. This policy will not stick. I think eBay should simply make feedback optional for both parties and not assign a neg pos and nuetrel but simply let the parties enter what they want for anyone to read it. And I think they are WAY too loose on non payment with there silly unpaid items strikes. You bought it, you own it. Unless if it is not as described, period. You don't pay, you broke a legal contract, your word is no good, and ebay says Ok just don't do it 3 more times???? or whatever ridiculos loose policy they have....
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I disagree. Good sellers love it, as they have nothing to hide. Bad sellers hate it - they have plenty to hide.
It's just that good seller feedback ratings will dip because of some knutty buyers. I would not doubt if an "excellent" feedback rating ends up around 85-90%. Just adjust your scale.
Bad sellers will end up around 25-50%. Avoid those dudes!
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
<< <i>You will see more buyers backing out of purchases now with no fear of getting negged. Very bad for honest sellers. >>
I can see it now...
I don't want that item that i bid on 12 times when it opened at 99¢ and no reserve. If you file a NPB, you'll get a neg and I might have my buddies do it to you too. Have a nice day
<< <i>PBRat, we often cancel bids from bidders with a poor feedback rating. We don't always have the time to check out our current high bidders, but when we do, if we see someone with a bunch of deserved negatives, then we cancel their bid immediately (no questions asked). >>
This doesn't work with last minute sniper bids although there's not much that you can do about it..
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm a good seller and I don't love it- I think it's stupid.
The reason feedback doesn't work now is there are far too many buyers irrationally afraid of receiving negative feedback. Why? I don't know- maybe they didn't get enough gold stars on their homework in school or something- either way, if A) buyers left appropriate feedback and buyers read sellers' feedback before bidding, they'd practically never have to worry about getting unwarranted negs. As it is though, due to their concern over their own feedback, buyers have compromised the system (sellers can't leave retaliatory feedback if buyers refuse to bid on their auctions, can they now?).
When I first got involved with eBay, a typical message board response to a post from someone worried about getting retaliatory feedback from a scumbag seller after leaving a well-desreved neg for him was "Good job- if you do get a neg, wear it with pride for doing right thing". Not anymore.
...it is a very "wise(?)" move on the part of ebay...because the FB is tied to the "supposed" FVF discounts...
...with this new system, I believe very few sellers will be able to maintain the FB ratings needed to "earn" the discounts...
...all it will take is an occasional PITA in a bad mood to undo even the best sellers...
...only time will tell how this all will really turn out...
I intend to list a few items this weekend to end before the fees go up...then I might cautiously list a few more items before the FB change in May...then I will sit back and watch for a while...
For those who will confidently continue listing after the FB change...I wish you the best of luck...and I will wait to hear the results...
Will we have "horror story" threads here on the forum? (More than we have now ..) ...or will it be business as usual for the sellers?...
...only time will tell...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
...it is a very "wise(?)" move on the part of ebay...because the FB is tied to the "supposed" FVF discounts...
...with this new system, I believe very few sellers will be able to maintain the FB ratings needed to "earn" the discounts...
...all it will take is an occasional PITA in a bad mood to undo even the best sellers...
...only time will tell how this all will really turn out...
I intend to list a few items this weekend to end before the fees go up...then I might cautiously list a few more items before the FB change in May...then I will sit back and watch for a while...
For those who will confidently continue listing after the FB change...I wish you the best of luck...and I will wait to hear the results...
Will we have "horror story" threads here on the forum? (More than we have now ..) ...or will it be business as usual for the sellers?...
...only time will tell... >>
Heard you the first time...
John C. Knudsen, LM ANA 2342, LM CSNS 337 SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
...now I know my computer is actually turned on and I'm not imagining all this ...
...or is it?...and am I?
...those gosh darn 60's...musta messed up my mind...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>That's why sellers have been able to use retaliation to force mutual withdrawals. >>
Sellers who retaliate through feedback could be easily enough avoided if buyers would read the feedback those sellers have left for other buyers before bidding. >>
<< <i>In my opinion, the new feedback policy is the best move made by eBay in a long time. Feedback is currently meaningless, since both parties hold each other hostage. It’s beyond stupid as it stands now, and it borders on complete silliness. eBay recognizes this.
The new policy will force sellers to deliver, or their rating will suffer greatly. As far a ‘buyer feedback rating’ goes, frankly, who cares? Legit feedback ratings of sellers are what’s important here (i.e. trust), and this policy will drive us in that direction. With this new policy, we will soon be separating the wheat from the chaff. Man, I bet borderline/bad sellers hate this change.
Dave >>
As an ebay seller, I did everything I could to make my sellers happy. I tried to take accurate pictures, offer complete descriptions, track USPS items for people because they where unable to do it themselves, drive 40 miles one way and physically show the difference between an uncirculated copper coin and a uncirculated zinc coin.
I have called ebay and waited on hold for 45 minutes all so I request someone call the buyer (who filed a never received item claim) and explain that if he simply goes to his post office he may pick up the package I sent him the day after he won the auction that has been sitting in HIS POST OFFICE FOR A WEEK WAITING FOR HIM TO PICK IT UP!!
I emailed a woman back and forth several times and finally spoke with her over the phone she wanted the 1943 copper penny in PCGS MS67 that she won in my auction for $25 for a Christmas present for her son. I explained that it was zinc. She insisted that it looked “copper” in her monitor and she wanted “that one in the picture”. After several more minutes of explaining that SHE GOT THE ONE IN THE PICTURE, I think she finally understood when I said if I did have this coin in this PCGS grade, we could sell it at auction, probably get a number in the middle 6 figures ($500,000) somewhere, split the money and both of us could pay off our houses.
My point: You will lose some bad sellers but I would like to think (and I think many others would say) that I was a fair and honest seller who went above and beyond to please my clients. The above two clients walked away very satisfied and frankly in the new system I believe I would have been given a negative by both.
The first guy simply needed someone to help him find his coins (frightening as that sounds). The second person wanted something “cool” for her son. I actually met her, showed her, several different alternatives and she ended up taking a 1964 brockage error penny in PCGS 64RB. This penny was probably worth a little more than the one that she won but she was happy.
I just don’t have the time or patience to provide this level of service and still get negatives in a unilateral system. I might as well go take a retail job instead.
I think some people are missing the point. It's not "just about the feedback." If it were only a number, who cares. The problem is that at the same time that eBay has put sellers at the mercy of all buyers (remember, some people will be vicious and vindictive just because they can... they get off on it... like people who spend their time programming viruses or worms or hack computer systems and web sites... they do it for the challenge, bragging rights, and because they can), eBay has now caused seller's feedback scores and the star ratings to DIRECTLY AFFECT (1) the rate of fees you pay, (2) where your items fall in the default search algorithms, and most importantly (3) your ability to get your money out of PayPal.
For the powerscrewers it's not as big a deal, but for the small seller, this new system is a death knell.
Remember, your "dissatisfaction rating" is calculated based on a 30-day moving average of items sold.
Scenario: You sell 20 items this month. You get 1 neutral or neg. This amounts to a 5% dissatisfaction rating, which is enough to trigger PayPal not releasing your funds until after positive feedback is left by the buyer or 21 days pass without a chargeback. This also means that you now are forced to ship the goods without receiving the payment for the shipping charges.
If you read the boards over at eBay, the nightmare has already started. Clueless buyers who think that the no-negative-feedback policy is already in effect are already attempting to extort sellers:
"If you don't refund me 50% I'll neg you."
"I changed my mind. If you don't take it back for a 100% refund, I'll neg you."
<< <i>I think some people are missing the point. It's not "just about the feedback." If it were only a number, who cares. The problem is that at the same time that eBay has put sellers at the mercy of all buyers (remember, some people will be vicious and vindictive just because they can... they get off on it... like people who spend their time programming viruses or worms or hack computer systems and web sites... they do it for the challenge, bragging rights, and because they can), eBay has now caused seller's feedback scores and the star ratings to DIRECTLY AFFECT (1) the rate of fees you pay, (2) where your items fall in the default search algorithms, and most importantly (3) your ability to get your money out of PayPal.
For the powerscrewers it's not as big a deal, but for the small seller, this new system is a death knell.
Remember, your "dissatisfaction rating" is calculated based on a 30-day moving average of items sold.
Scenario: You sell 20 items this month. You get 1 neutral or neg. This amounts to a 5% dissatisfaction rating, which is enough to trigger PayPal not releasing your funds until after positive feedback is left by the buyer or 21 days pass without a chargeback. This also means that you now are forced to ship the goods without receiving the payment for the shipping charges.
If you read the boards over at eBay, the nightmare has already started. Clueless buyers who think that the no-negative-feedback policy is already in effect are already attempting to extort sellers:
"If you don't refund me 50% I'll neg you."
"I changed my mind. If you don't take it back for a 100% refund, I'll neg you."
Scamming buyers have won the lottery. >>
This was my fear as well. As a minor player, I simply decided to take my business elsewhere.
<< <i>The problem is that at the same time that eBay has put sellers at the mercy of all buyers (remember, some people will be vicious and vindictive just because they can... they get off on it... >>
FWIW, I just read the following on one of eBay's message boards:
I'm not out to extort people, but if Sellers feel like they no longer are able to be bothered giving any FB since they can no longer hold it over the Buyer's head, then I guess the "Low DSR" would be the appropriate answer.
<< <i>The problem is that at the same time that eBay has put sellers at the mercy of all buyers (remember, some people will be vicious and vindictive just because they can... they get off on it... >>
FWIW, I just read the following on one of eBay's message boards:
I'm not out to extort people, but if Sellers feel like they no longer are able to be bothered giving any FB since they can no longer hold it over the Buyer's head, then I guess the "Low DSR" would be the appropriate answer. >>
OH YEAH, the bidiots are puffing out their chests already!
The sad thing is that there *IS* a viable alternative to this feedback conundrum: a double-blind feedback system.
Here's how I would implement it:
When either party (buyer or seller) leaves feedback for the other, the recipient of that feedback gets the following message:
"The buyer/seller of transaction XXXXXXXXXX has left you feedback. As soon as you leave feedback for this transaction you will be able to view and respond to this feedback."
In other words, both buyers and sellers can NEVER see feedback for the other party without first leaving feedback for the transaction. The new feedback is not mathematically incorporated into the buyers/sellers feedback score until it is revealed (to prevent guesstimating who left a pos/neg).
"Ah hah!" you say. "What's to prevent a disreputable seller from simply not responding at all to feedback so his negs never see the light of day?"
Here's the other part of the equation:
When a buyer or seller is notified that they have received feedback and are urged to reciprocate, they then have a 30-day window to leave corresponding feedback. If they have not done so by the end of the window, the feedback that was left for them becomes visible and is added/subtracted to their feedback score, AND THEY LOSE THE ABILITY TO LEAVE FEEDBACK FOR THE OTHER PARTY ON THAT TRANSACTION.
This way no retaliatory feedback can ever be left by either buyer or seller.
Simple... fair... and there's no way eBay would ever implement it.
<< <i>That's why sellers have been able to use retaliation to force mutual withdrawals. >>
Sellers who retaliate through feedback could be easily enough avoided if buyers would read the feedback those sellers have left for other buyers before bidding. >>
Many buyers don't know feedback can be withdrawn or where to find withdrawn feedback. Maybe eBay should stop allowing feedback to be withdrawn?
New ruling is right and justified. Let the buyer beware! Hasn't anyone ever heard that the "customer" is always right?
I have never been so excited to be a buyer on eBay. See you in May, boys.
This one was interesting:
Ebay should have sent this email instead:
Dearest sellers,
Don't you have any other rival sellers you are trying to get rid of? Guess what, your chance comes in May with the new feedback policy. Now, you can buy 10 items from your rivals, leave them 10 negatives, and they can't do jack to you! Hip Hip Hurray! Also, since creating an ebay account outside of the U.S. doesn't require a credit card, you can set up a few more phony accounts to leave your rival sellers negatives!
<< <i>The sad thing is that there *IS* a viable alternative to this feedback conundrum: a double-blind feedback system.
Here's how I would implement it:
When either party (buyer or seller) leaves feedback for the other, the recipient of that feedback gets the following message:
"The buyer/seller of transaction XXXXXXXXXX has left you feedback. As soon as you leave feedback for this transaction you will be able to view and respond to this feedback."
In other words, both buyers and sellers can NEVER see feedback for the other party without first leaving feedback for the transaction. The new feedback is not mathematically incorporated into the buyers/sellers feedback score until it is revealed (to prevent guesstimating who left a pos/neg).
"Ah hah!" you say. "What's to prevent a disreputable seller from simply not responding at all to feedback so his negs never see the light of day?"
Here's the other part of the equation:
When a buyer or seller is notified that they have received feedback and are urged to reciprocate, they then have a 30-day window to leave corresponding feedback. If they have not done so by the end of the window, the feedback that was left for them becomes visible and is added/subtracted to their feedback score, AND THEY LOSE THE ABILITY TO LEAVE FEEDBACK FOR THE OTHER PARTY ON THAT TRANSACTION.
This way no retaliatory feedback can ever be left by either buyer or seller.
Simple... fair... and there's no way eBay would ever implement it. >>
I have proposed this in the past several times. The advantage is it eliminates retaliatory feedback, feedback extortion and it's fair to both buyer and seller.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The sad thing is that there *IS* a viable alternative to this feedback conundrum: a double-blind feedback system.
Here's how I would implement it:
When either party (buyer or seller) leaves feedback for the other, the recipient of that feedback gets the following message:
"The buyer/seller of transaction XXXXXXXXXX has left you feedback. As soon as you leave feedback for this transaction you will be able to view and respond to this feedback."
In other words, both buyers and sellers can NEVER see feedback for the other party without first leaving feedback for the transaction. The new feedback is not mathematically incorporated into the buyers/sellers feedback score until it is revealed (to prevent guesstimating who left a pos/neg).
"Ah hah!" you say. "What's to prevent a disreputable seller from simply not responding at all to feedback so his negs never see the light of day?"
Here's the other part of the equation:
When a buyer or seller is notified that they have received feedback and are urged to reciprocate, they then have a 30-day window to leave corresponding feedback. If they have not done so by the end of the window, the feedback that was left for them becomes visible and is added/subtracted to their feedback score, AND THEY LOSE THE ABILITY TO LEAVE FEEDBACK FOR THE OTHER PARTY ON THAT TRANSACTION.
This way no retaliatory feedback can ever be left by either buyer or seller.
Simple... fair... and there's no way eBay would ever implement it. >>
I have proposed this in the past several times. The advantage is it eliminates retaliatory feedback, feedback extortion and it's fair to both buyer and seller. >>
This is not a bad idea but I would add one more step (Since we are just spit balling here): If either party plans to leave non-positive feedback, they would need to at least email the other party once to communicate if the party that was going to leave the non-positive feedback has been an ebay member for less than 6 months or has left excessive negative feedback etc. I have found that although some negative feedback is deserved alot of negative feedback is caused by a party failing to communicate or being new to ebay.
Interesting. I posted my comments above over on eBay's board and had a level-headed discussion going amongst several participants. Just discussing viable reasons pro and con.
eBay yanked it. They *REALLY* don't want anyone talking about this.
Of course this same shining consistency is that which allows multiple threads about "PayPal suxors and they are teh scamming and stealing your money from people!" and other nonsensical drivel.
johnmaben i agree with you 100%...i myself have fantastic feedback on ebay 99.9% out of 2000 transactions...you are going to get buyers backing out of deals like never before and leaving negatives knowing there is nothing you can do back to them...i cant tell you how many times i have heard the checks in the mail and never received it...i see peoples feedbacks going much lower and if this is what ebay wants good luck to them...i will stay on the sidelines and see what happens
Comments
For those who are still selling on eBay, you might want to consider joining SQUARE TRADE. It isn't cheap (I think I pay $80/year or something like that to be a member), but they do have the authority to remove unwarranted negative feedback -- which is sort of like a little insurance policy against unfair negs.
I assume that they will still be able to do that after the changes are implemented in May.
Please visit our eBay store:
FESTIVUS MAXIMUS - (Opened in 1998, 1000+ transactions, 99.9+% positive feedback)
** Recently completed our first two successful CU transactions: thanks dragon!
Where did you get "9 out of 10" from? There are many many examples on these Forums where Retalitory Negatives are given for counterfeit, cleaned, misgraded, or photoshopped coins.
My World Coin Type Set
<< <i>Maybe they need to change the "negative FB score" piece to something like "buyer leaves negative feedback for the seller more than 5% of the time" (or whatever threshold turns out to be appropriate). >>
Among other ideas, this is one of the things I suggested to my account rep. I got the impression that the new management really is interested in the input of sellers and if they find merit, they will tweak it before it goes live. Of course, eBay's definition of "merit" may not revolve around common sense.
Russ, NCNE
The new policy will force sellers to deliver, or their rating will suffer greatly. As far a ‘buyer feedback rating’ goes, frankly, who cares? Legit feedback ratings of sellers are what’s important here (i.e. trust), and this policy will drive us in that direction. With this new policy, we will soon be separating the wheat from the chaff. Man, I bet borderline/bad sellers hate this change.
Dave
Then, the SOP will simply be for people (sellers in particular) to check the feedback comments more closely than they now do.
No real difference from a sellers protection standpoint for non-sniping bidders.
<< <i>If a seller was clearly in the wrong or negligent and leaves a neg for the buyer, yes that is retaliation. But how many of these are clearcut? 9 out of 10 times it is buyers simply being unreasonable, expecting too much, or not giving the seller a chance to right an honest mistake >>
John,
I can see how you might believe that to be the case. As an excellent seller, when you do run in to a problem it's likely to be legitimately the buyer's problem. In reality, though, there are thousands of sellers who automatically retaliate for any neutral or negative feedback just so they can bogus up their percentage by forcing mutual withdrawal.
Russ, NCNE
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
THIS BUYER DESERVED A NEGATIVE WITHOUT QUESTION, BUT EBAY WON'T LET ME LEAVE HIM ONE.
I'm sure this will happen, and the question is will eBay pull them....
Russ-- point well taken.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
It's just that good seller feedback ratings will dip because of some knutty buyers. I would not doubt if an "excellent" feedback rating ends up around 85-90%. Just adjust your scale.
Bad sellers will end up around 25-50%. Avoid those dudes!
Dave
<< <i>You will see more buyers backing out of purchases now with no fear of getting negged. Very bad for honest sellers. >>
I can see it now...
I don't want that item that i bid on 12 times when it opened at 99¢ and no reserve. If you file a NPB, you'll get a neg and I might have my buddies do it to you too. Have a nice day
<< <i>PBRat, we often cancel bids from bidders with a poor feedback rating. We don't always have the time to check out our current high bidders, but when we do, if we see someone with a bunch of deserved negatives, then we cancel their bid immediately (no questions asked). >>
This doesn't work with last minute sniper bids although there's not much that you can do about it..
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I disagree. Good sellers love it >>
I'm a good seller and I don't love it- I think it's stupid.
The reason feedback doesn't work now is there are far too many buyers irrationally afraid of receiving negative feedback. Why? I don't know- maybe they didn't get enough gold stars on their homework in school or something- either way, if A) buyers left appropriate feedback and
When I first got involved with eBay, a typical message board response to a post from someone worried about getting retaliatory feedback from a scumbag seller after leaving a well-desreved neg for him was "Good job- if you do get a neg, wear it with pride for doing right thing". Not anymore.
...it is a very "wise(?)" move on the part of ebay...because the FB is tied to the "supposed" FVF discounts...
...with this new system, I believe very few sellers will be able to maintain the FB ratings needed to "earn" the discounts...
...all it will take is an occasional PITA in a bad mood to undo even the best sellers...
...only time will tell how this all will really turn out...
I intend to list a few items this weekend to end before the fees go up...then I might cautiously list a few more items before the FB change in May...then I will sit back and watch for a while...
For those who will confidently continue listing after the FB change...I wish you the best of luck...and I will wait to hear the results...
Will we have "horror story" threads here on the forum? (More than we have now
...only time will tell...
<< <i>My take on this new FB policy is...
...it is a very "wise(?)" move on the part of ebay...because the FB is tied to the "supposed" FVF discounts...
...with this new system, I believe very few sellers will be able to maintain the FB ratings needed to "earn" the discounts...
...all it will take is an occasional PITA in a bad mood to undo even the best sellers...
...only time will tell how this all will really turn out...
I intend to list a few items this weekend to end before the fees go up...then I might cautiously list a few more items before the FB change in May...then I will sit back and watch for a while...
For those who will confidently continue listing after the FB change...I wish you the best of luck...and I will wait to hear the results...
Will we have "horror story" threads here on the forum? (More than we have now
...only time will tell... >>
Heard you the first time...
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>Heard you the first time... >>
Thanks for letting me know, John...
...now I know my computer is actually turned on and I'm not imagining all this
...or is it?...and am I?
...those gosh darn 60's...musta messed up my mind...
<< <i>
<< <i>Heard you the first time... >>
Thanks for letting me know, John...
...now I know my computer is actually turned on and I'm not imagining all this
...or is it?...and am I?
...those gosh darn 60's...musta messed up my mind...
Cool - me, too. And I thought I was the only one!
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>
<< <i>That's why sellers have been able to use retaliation to force mutual withdrawals. >>
Sellers who retaliate through feedback could be easily enough avoided if buyers would read the feedback those sellers have left for other buyers before bidding.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>In my opinion, the new feedback policy is the best move made by eBay in a long time. Feedback is currently meaningless, since both parties hold each other hostage. It’s beyond stupid as it stands now, and it borders on complete silliness. eBay recognizes this.
The new policy will force sellers to deliver, or their rating will suffer greatly. As far a ‘buyer feedback rating’ goes, frankly, who cares? Legit feedback ratings of sellers are what’s important here (i.e. trust), and this policy will drive us in that direction. With this new policy, we will soon be separating the wheat from the chaff. Man, I bet borderline/bad sellers hate this change.
Dave >>
As an ebay seller, I did everything I could to make my sellers happy. I tried to take accurate pictures, offer complete descriptions, track USPS items for people because they where unable to do it themselves, drive 40 miles one way and physically show the difference between an uncirculated copper coin and a uncirculated zinc coin.
I have called ebay and waited on hold for 45 minutes all so I request someone call the buyer (who filed a never received item claim) and explain that if he simply goes to his post office he may pick up the package I sent him the day after he won the auction that has been sitting in HIS POST OFFICE FOR A WEEK WAITING FOR HIM TO PICK IT UP!!
I emailed a woman back and forth several times and finally spoke with her over the phone she wanted the 1943 copper penny in PCGS MS67 that she won in my auction for $25 for a Christmas present for her son. I explained that it was zinc. She insisted that it looked “copper” in her monitor and she wanted “that one in the picture”. After several more minutes of explaining that SHE GOT THE ONE IN THE PICTURE, I think she finally understood when I said if I did have this coin in this PCGS grade, we could sell it at auction, probably get a number in the middle 6 figures ($500,000) somewhere, split the money and both of us could pay off our houses.
My point: You will lose some bad sellers but I would like to think (and I think many others would say) that I was a fair and honest seller who went above and beyond to please my clients. The above two clients walked away very satisfied and frankly in the new system I believe I would have been given a negative by both.
The first guy simply needed someone to help him find his coins (frightening as that sounds). The second person wanted something “cool” for her son. I actually met her, showed her, several different alternatives and she ended up taking a 1964 brockage error penny in PCGS 64RB. This penny was probably worth a little more than the one that she won but she was happy.
I just don’t have the time or patience to provide this level of service and still get negatives in a unilateral system. I might as well go take a retail job instead.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
For the powerscrewers it's not as big a deal, but for the small seller, this new system is a death knell.
Remember, your "dissatisfaction rating" is calculated based on a 30-day moving average of items sold.
Scenario: You sell 20 items this month. You get 1 neutral or neg. This amounts to a 5% dissatisfaction rating, which is enough to trigger PayPal not releasing your funds until after positive feedback is left by the buyer or 21 days pass without a chargeback. This also means that you now are forced to ship the goods without receiving the payment for the shipping charges.
If you read the boards over at eBay, the nightmare has already started. Clueless buyers who think that the no-negative-feedback policy is already in effect are already attempting to extort sellers:
"If you don't refund me 50% I'll neg you."
"I changed my mind. If you don't take it back for a 100% refund, I'll neg you."
Scamming buyers have won the lottery.
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<< <i>I think some people are missing the point. It's not "just about the feedback." If it were only a number, who cares. The problem is that at the same time that eBay has put sellers at the mercy of all buyers (remember, some people will be vicious and vindictive just because they can... they get off on it... like people who spend their time programming viruses or worms or hack computer systems and web sites... they do it for the challenge, bragging rights, and because they can), eBay has now caused seller's feedback scores and the star ratings to DIRECTLY AFFECT (1) the rate of fees you pay, (2) where your items fall in the default search algorithms, and most importantly (3) your ability to get your money out of PayPal.
For the powerscrewers it's not as big a deal, but for the small seller, this new system is a death knell.
Remember, your "dissatisfaction rating" is calculated based on a 30-day moving average of items sold.
Scenario: You sell 20 items this month. You get 1 neutral or neg. This amounts to a 5% dissatisfaction rating, which is enough to trigger PayPal not releasing your funds until after positive feedback is left by the buyer or 21 days pass without a chargeback. This also means that you now are forced to ship the goods without receiving the payment for the shipping charges.
If you read the boards over at eBay, the nightmare has already started. Clueless buyers who think that the no-negative-feedback policy is already in effect are already attempting to extort sellers:
"If you don't refund me 50% I'll neg you."
"I changed my mind. If you don't take it back for a 100% refund, I'll neg you."
Scamming buyers have won the lottery. >>
This was my fear as well. As a minor player, I simply decided to take my business elsewhere.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>The problem is that at the same time that eBay has put sellers at the mercy of all buyers (remember, some people will be vicious and vindictive just because they can... they get off on it... >>
FWIW, I just read the following on one of eBay's message boards:
I'm not out to extort people, but if Sellers feel like they no longer are able to be bothered giving any FB since they can no longer hold it over the Buyer's head, then I guess the "Low DSR" would be the appropriate answer.
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is that at the same time that eBay has put sellers at the mercy of all buyers (remember, some people will be vicious and vindictive just because they can... they get off on it... >>
FWIW, I just read the following on one of eBay's message boards:
I'm not out to extort people, but if Sellers feel like they no longer are able to be bothered giving any FB since they can no longer hold it over the Buyer's head, then I guess the "Low DSR" would be the appropriate answer. >>
OH YEAH, the bidiots are puffing out their chests already!
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
I would'nt give a 5* just on principal. Nobody is perfect.
Here's how I would implement it:
When either party (buyer or seller) leaves feedback for the other, the recipient of that feedback gets the following message:
"The buyer/seller of transaction XXXXXXXXXX has left you feedback. As soon as you leave feedback for this transaction you will be able to view and respond to this feedback."
In other words, both buyers and sellers can NEVER see feedback for the other party without first leaving feedback for the transaction. The new feedback is not mathematically incorporated into the buyers/sellers feedback score until it is revealed (to prevent guesstimating who left a pos/neg).
"Ah hah!" you say. "What's to prevent a disreputable seller from simply not responding at all to feedback so his negs never see the light of day?"
Here's the other part of the equation:
When a buyer or seller is notified that they have received feedback and are urged to reciprocate, they then have a 30-day window to leave corresponding feedback. If they have not done so by the end of the window, the feedback that was left for them becomes visible and is added/subtracted to their feedback score, AND THEY LOSE THE ABILITY TO LEAVE FEEDBACK FOR THE OTHER PARTY ON THAT TRANSACTION.
This way no retaliatory feedback can ever be left by either buyer or seller.
Simple... fair... and there's no way eBay would ever implement it.
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<< <i>
<< <i>That's why sellers have been able to use retaliation to force mutual withdrawals. >>
Sellers who retaliate through feedback could be easily enough avoided if buyers would read the feedback those sellers have left for other buyers before bidding. >>
Many buyers don't know feedback can be withdrawn or where to find withdrawn feedback. Maybe eBay should stop allowing feedback to be withdrawn?
New ruling is right and justified. Let the buyer beware! Hasn't anyone ever heard that the "customer" is always right?
I have never been so excited to be a buyer on eBay. See you in May, boys.
This one was interesting:
Ebay should have sent this email instead:
Dearest sellers,
Don't you have any other rival sellers you are trying to get rid of? Guess what, your chance comes in May with the new feedback policy. Now, you can buy 10 items from your rivals, leave them 10 negatives, and they can't do jack to you! Hip Hip Hurray! Also, since creating an ebay account outside of the U.S. doesn't require a credit card, you can set up a few more phony accounts to leave your rival sellers negatives!
We hope you like the new change!
OUCH!
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>The sad thing is that there *IS* a viable alternative to this feedback conundrum: a double-blind feedback system.
Here's how I would implement it:
When either party (buyer or seller) leaves feedback for the other, the recipient of that feedback gets the following message:
"The buyer/seller of transaction XXXXXXXXXX has left you feedback. As soon as you leave feedback for this transaction you will be able to view and respond to this feedback."
In other words, both buyers and sellers can NEVER see feedback for the other party without first leaving feedback for the transaction. The new feedback is not mathematically incorporated into the buyers/sellers feedback score until it is revealed (to prevent guesstimating who left a pos/neg).
"Ah hah!" you say. "What's to prevent a disreputable seller from simply not responding at all to feedback so his negs never see the light of day?"
Here's the other part of the equation:
When a buyer or seller is notified that they have received feedback and are urged to reciprocate, they then have a 30-day window to leave corresponding feedback. If they have not done so by the end of the window, the feedback that was left for them becomes visible and is added/subtracted to their feedback score, AND THEY LOSE THE ABILITY TO LEAVE FEEDBACK FOR THE OTHER PARTY ON THAT TRANSACTION.
This way no retaliatory feedback can ever be left by either buyer or seller.
Simple... fair... and there's no way eBay would ever implement it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>The sad thing is that there *IS* a viable alternative to this feedback conundrum: a double-blind feedback system.
Here's how I would implement it:
When either party (buyer or seller) leaves feedback for the other, the recipient of that feedback gets the following message:
"The buyer/seller of transaction XXXXXXXXXX has left you feedback. As soon as you leave feedback for this transaction you will be able to view and respond to this feedback."
In other words, both buyers and sellers can NEVER see feedback for the other party without first leaving feedback for the transaction. The new feedback is not mathematically incorporated into the buyers/sellers feedback score until it is revealed (to prevent guesstimating who left a pos/neg).
"Ah hah!" you say. "What's to prevent a disreputable seller from simply not responding at all to feedback so his negs never see the light of day?"
Here's the other part of the equation:
When a buyer or seller is notified that they have received feedback and are urged to reciprocate, they then have a 30-day window to leave corresponding feedback. If they have not done so by the end of the window, the feedback that was left for them becomes visible and is added/subtracted to their feedback score, AND THEY LOSE THE ABILITY TO LEAVE FEEDBACK FOR THE OTHER PARTY ON THAT TRANSACTION.
This way no retaliatory feedback can ever be left by either buyer or seller.
Simple... fair... and there's no way eBay would ever implement it.
This is not a bad idea but I would add one more step (Since we are just spit balling here): If either party plans to leave non-positive feedback, they would need to at least email the other party once to communicate if the party that was going to leave the non-positive feedback has been an ebay member for less than 6 months or has left excessive negative feedback etc. I have found that although some negative feedback is deserved alot of negative feedback is caused by a party failing to communicate or being new to ebay.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
eBay yanked it. They *REALLY* don't want anyone talking about this.
Of course this same shining consistency is that which allows multiple threads about "PayPal suxors and they are teh scamming and stealing your money from people!" and other nonsensical drivel.
*sigh*
New tagline coming soon: "Shop Vindictively!"
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Take Care, Dave