I just got off the phone with a man that in the early '60`s was privy to personally opening or being present to ;the opening of countless original bags of
silver dollars .
He NEVER saw any dollars come out of those bags that were toned like the B.C. coins .
<< <i>why is it that while those who tend to feel the coins are AT question the circumstances and origin of the coins, while those who feel the coins are NT tend to want to impign the integrity of any who disagree with them??? that to me is disconcerting. my view is that this whole thing is all about marketing, personal integrity and large financial involvement for several collectors/dealers and organizations such as NGC/Superior. we just need to "trust" these experts. the trouble is that we've all been fooled before. Mr. DeFalco's angst is a bit insulting to me. these big dealers and self-acknowledged experts are as much the problem as they are the solution, giving us names and information when it seems to serve their purpose and withholding the same when it accomplishes the same result. >>
Keets -- I'm curious, how do you find my angst (which the dictionary defines as a feeling of anxiety) a bit insulting to you? I wasn't aware that a "feeling" one may be experiencing could be capable of insulting another? Please help me to understand this so I don't insult you in the future.
Now allow me to clarify a couple of points for you. (1) I'm not a "big" dealer. Heritage is big, Spectrum is big, Superior is big, etc. I'm just a small dealer who has been in the coin business continuously since November, 1973. (2) I am a nationally acknowledged (not self-acknowledged) expert within the professional numismatic community in the area of superb originally toned Morgan dollars and classic silver commemoratives along with prooflike and deep mirror prooflike Morgan dollars. BTW, I do possess the credentials to back this statement up. In my humble opinion the "self-acknowledged" experts to whom you refer are among a number of the posters here who are not full-time professionals in the field of numismatics and whose opinions are without substance or foundation.
It's genuine shame that there is so much virulent anti-dealer sentiment on these boards because you folks are missing out on a literal goldmine of knowledge that would willingly be shared with you were it not for the atmosphere of animosity and hatred toward the dealer community in general. I for one seldom post here and plan to keep it that way. In Matthew 7:6 Jesus says..."nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." I think I'd be wise to follow His advice.
<< <i>What i am sure about is that just like stock chat boards,people spreading FUD,fear,uncertainty,and doubt,without any backup or factual information are doing it for their own benefit.If a market for anything is helped or hurt by baseless assaults on any kind of area of numismatics,its probably because somebody is looking to profit from the FUD created.
I have never been one motivated by profit in the numismatic arena, and my experience and discussions in the past here would confirm this. There is no way I know to short a Battle Creek Morgan, so I do not see how anyone could profit by spreading FUD.
190 posts to this thread and I killed it with my above post....
Happy now? >>
RYK,I WAS NOT talking about you.I was i believe the first to answer your original post or close to the first.I had suggested a few opinions of mine,however your simple question was used by others to basicly scare people about monster toned dollars,and all BC dollars,and within the first 20 posts it was the AT/NT b.s. again.My primary area of collecting is that area.When people get fear,uncertainty and doubt,AND it has happened in the past,market value can be affected.People sell scared,others buy cheap,and after awhile,prices come back up.If you want though i can ask a question about old gold that i thought might have darkened in a slab and believe it,someone will have a motive,and if the values went down,only those with the real deep pockets benefit,same with toned MPLs,lasered Saints,and ANY other area of the numismatic markets for specialty collecting.As i said in my last post,the only person that is blatantly full of it is fanofcoins,who,BTW,still nobody has vouched for.Dont take it personal,it wasnt.Lloyd
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<< <i>I just got off the phone with a man that in the early '60`s was privy to personally opening or being present to ;the opening of countless original bags of
silver dollars .
He NEVER saw any dollars come out of those bags that were toned like the B.C. coins . >>
HRH has posted here in the not too distant past about the many many toned Morgans he has seen over the years. I wonder what he thinks of the BC coins. Just musing out loud.
<< <i>looks like it's going to be the area 51 of coin collecting with folks continuing to crawl out of the woodwork to say the coins are unquestionably AT and that as their coins darkened in the coming decades they saw an image of the virgin Mary in lady Liberty's hair.....
look, it's comments like the one above that are really ridiculous. the whole discussion grew from a collector saying he thought one of his two coins seemed less intense while the other appeared unchanged and naturally the old suspicion was revived. Sunnywood, you seem to get back to the same defensive position that rests on some special qualification to judge tone on a Morgan, as though being a Morgan specialist is a requirement. i don't necessarily agree with that just as i don't agree with the assertions of the "experts" that their opinions need to be trusted. perhaps that was a certainty in the past, but times have changed, information has been disemminated and we are all a bit wiser.
NGC has been fooled to an embarrassing degree and, along with PCGS, recently took steps to combat things by issuing it's statement to dealers. by your own admission this group of coins was unprecedented. by the admission of most prominent dealers and by the pre-emminent grading services the proponents of AT are ahead of the detection ability, creating coins which fool us all. again, why would i trust the experts?? i have seen no forum member, no dealer, no organization and no grading service without some bias or self-interest in these coins come forward to endorse them. maybe that has happened and i haven't seen it, but it would probably be reassuring to everyone, seeing as there is so much self-serving secrecy offered by those who would be most adversely affected by anything negative about the BC's.
i don't know one way or the other but i suspect AT more than i accept NT. >>
You found my comment to be rediculous which was exactly my point...........what exactly are you adding to this discussion? I am trying to make lite of the fact that toned coins keep getting thrown under the bus with no proof............the original poster asked a valid question to see if anyone had seen the same as him....no argument with that. When the thread starts to take a turn into the AT relm then I think making rediculous comments as I did have about as much merit as most of the rest of the BS being posted. >>
Apparently the supposition must be that NT coins don't fade/lose color intensity and AT coins do. So if the RYK coin did indeed lose color intensity then it MUST be AT.
<< <i>It's genuine shame that there is so much virulent anti-dealer sentiment on these boards because you folks are missing out on a literal goldmine of knowledge that would willingly be shared with you were it not for the atmosphere of animosity and hatred toward the dealer community in general. I for one seldom post here and plan to keep it that way. In Matthew 7:6 Jesus says..."nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." I think I'd be wise to follow His advice. >>
Mikey, I don't hate dealers. I try not to judge people. Though my wife may call me a pig from time to time, I don't consider myself swine. It may look different from your high point of view. Maybe you should follow His advice and read the bible a little more.
<< <i>I just got off the phone with a man that in the early '60`s was privy to personally opening or being present to ;the opening of countless original bags of
silver dollars .
He NEVER saw any dollars come out of those bags that were toned like the B.C. coins . >>
I've opened 2 original bags of Morgan dollars. All (for the most part) of the blast white, no stunning toners. Granted, these two experiences don't mean much in the over history of mint bags.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
I'm with Ahooka......this could get very interesting. I watched as these hit the market, though not being a toner guy (mostly), seeing the $$ results for these BC's.......and with the potential for these to NOT be NT, this could be a nightmare in the making.
To those that DO own these BC's, and are seeing them turn, what are your feelings on the NT vs AT topic on this? Could NT Morgans turn THIS rapidly? Not trying to stir the pot, just looking for opinions.
For those that DID buy, with the understanding they ARE NT (wasnt there a big thread about the validity of these being NT), do you have second thoughts now? Thank you for your answers, as I know this must be a sore topic right about now.....thank you!
Of course I have no second thoughts about the three BC coins that I own. I am absolutely as comfortable now with them as when I first saw them. The three that I own were among the most colorful and highest technical quality in the entire group, and were in the top ten or fewer in terms of hammer price out of the entire 1400 coin group. Together, the three coins set me back over $20,000. They are absolutely beautiful, and they look as colorful, as bright and as natural as they did when I bought them.
Really, all of this unfounded speculation on the part of people with little experience in collecting or handling toned dollars is just foolishness. I advise all of you to refrain from buying any toned coins at all, and instead, to fill your collection with white coins. Of course, very few of you will be able to determine which ones are naturally white, and which ones are chemically altered, dipped, artificially white coins. But at least that way you'll be comfortable with the coins you own, just as I am very pleased with mine.
and with that, you join Lloyd in the room for those who just don't get it, but that's OK. it has been a fun and enjoyable thread but not really much has been accomplished and nothing has changed. those who are certain the coins are NT are still certain, those who feel they are AT are apparently still certain of that and the largest group of all, those who really aren't sure either way, are still left to wonder.
Sunnywood, I was in no way trying to downplay the importance of the hoard. I was simply wondering if those owners were beginning to wonder. For the $$ you paid, I would CERTAINLY hope they are NT...and as I am only a newbie to the BOARDS, I have been around, and know you to be very knowledgable, and have great respect for that knowledge. I do know the difference between a dipped out piece of shyte and a white gem with original luster and skin. There ARE toners I like VERY much, but when it comes to toners, I am NOT that good at distinguishing a doctored/AT coin, (though there ARE those that are completely obvious, even to me) which is why I stick with what I am comfortable with. As long as YOU are comfy, thats all there is to it. I WASN'T second guessing the knowledge of those board members that have MUCH more knowledge than I do. There ARE finely created toners that DO make it into TPG holders (and I am NOT talking about SGS, NTC, etc).
edited to add: I have no opinion either way...you buy what you like...I just remember the donnybrook over these being NT vs AT...and when this thread popped up, was simply concerned with the thoughts of those that have theirs turning drastically, in short time.
<< <i>I'm with Ahooka......this could get very interesting. I watched as these hit the market, though not being a toner guy (mostly), seeing the $$ results for these BC's.......and with the potential for these to NOT be NT, this could be a nightmare in the making.
To those that DO own these BC's, and are seeing them turn (rapidly, from what I guess), what are your feelings on the NT vs AT topic on this? Could NT Morgans turn THIS rapidly? Not trying to stir the pot, just looking for opinions.
For those that DID buy, with the understanding they ARE NT (wasnt there a big thread about the validity of these being NT), do you have second thoughts now? Thank you for your answers, as I know this must be a sore topic right about now.....thank you! >>
One person thinks that one coin may have possibly faded over a year's time since he last saw it. How does that equate to owners of these coins seeing them change drastically over a short amount of time. Can you cite even one proven instance where one of these has changed?
Keets,I am happy to be in the same collecting room as Sunnywood,and you are correct about one thing,this thread has accomplished nothing but people and their opinions,which everyone is entitled to.
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
Welcome to the room, bestclser1 !!!! Sorry, keets, you're not allowed in !!
One person thinks that one coin may have possibly faded over a year's time since he last saw it. How does that equate to owners of these coins seeing them change drastically over a short amount of time. Can you cite even one proven instance where one of these has changed?
Quite right Bajjerfan, all this talk about rapidly changing coins is simply a fantasy. Ther aren't any. If there were, I'd be the first to ask all the questions !!! Not that I doubt RYK's observation, but even he confesses that he is not certain whether he sees any actual fading.
Show me a BC coin that has "rapidly changed" or darkened, or faded ... and I'll be the first to be very vocal in demanding explanations. But I haven't seen any such thing yet ...
<< <i>It's genuine shame that there is so much virulent anti-dealer sentiment on these boards because you folks are missing out on a literal goldmine of knowledge that would willingly be shared with you were it not for the atmosphere of animosity and hatred toward the dealer community in general. I for one seldom post here and plan to keep it that way. In Matthew 7:6 Jesus says..."nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." I think I'd be wise to follow His advice. >>
Mikey, I don't hate dealers. I try not to judge people. Though my wife may call me a pig from time to time, I don't consider myself swine. It may look different from your high point of view. Maybe you should follow His advice and read the bible a little more. >>
stinky2005: I didn't mean to infer that "everyone" on these boards hates coin dealers, but as I said, a virulent anti-dealer sentiment is pervasive here and rears it ugly head quite often. I also don't think all the folks here are literally "swine" -- I was simply using that passage of scripture to make a point. I probably should have paraphrased it to go something like this..."nor share your educated (through years of battlefield experience) professional opinion with the anti-dealer faction because they'll stomp all over you and tear you to shreds." BTW, I do read the Bible every single day and I am a follower of Jesus. This is not to say that I don't blow it -- because I do! I'm just a sinner (like everyone else) saved by His grace.
OK, perhaps I used the wrong verbage, and for that, you guys are right...I cant site any examples from this thread or any other source, as far as RAPIDLY changing. I only inquired because ONE person is noticing a change, already. I was just WONDERING if any of those that purchased the BC's were second guessing the tone. Sure, toners will CONTINUE to tone over time. If I stepped out of line, trust me, it was NOT my intention to STIR THE POT (which I said in one of my previous posts). I will step out of this post, and leave it to the experts. Remember, I was not the OP, and was simply trying to LEARN something, but if my wanting to simply learn about them is wrong, learning about them from those that DO have a certainty about them, then shame on me, huh? We all recall the bench clearer in regard to the NT vs. AT aspect of these. I'll let YOU experts dictate this thread and bow out, as apparently my wanting to attain more knowledge is wrong.
edited to add: NEVER did I give opinion as to whether they were NT or AT.
<< <i><< I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
Please, please, tell us more!! >>
All I can say is that it involves a tip jar and a very generous Quizno's customer. The only additional detail that I'm allowed to reveal is that the Quizno's manager personally witnessed the opening of the jar as well as the napkin package.
<< <i>What i am sure about is that just like stock chat boards,people spreading FUD,fear,uncertainty,and doubt,without any backup or factual information are doing it for their own benefit.If a market for anything is helped or hurt by baseless assaults on any kind of area of numismatics,its probably because somebody is looking to profit from the FUD created.
I have never been one motivated by profit in the numismatic arena, and my experience and discussions in the past here would confirm this. There is no way I know to short a Battle Creek Morgan, so I do not see how anyone could profit by spreading FUD.
190 posts to this thread and I killed it with my above post....
Happy now? >>
RYK,I WAS NOT talking about you.I was i believe the first to answer your original post or close to the first.I had suggested a few opinions of mine,however your simple question was used by others to basicly scare people about monster toned dollars,and all BC dollars,and within the first 20 posts it was the AT/NT b.s. again.My primary area of collecting is that area.When people get fear,uncertainty and doubt,AND it has happened in the past,market value can be affected.People sell scared,others buy cheap,and after awhile,prices come back up.If you want though i can ask a question about old gold that i thought might have darkened in a slab and believe it,someone will have a motive,and if the values went down,only those with the real deep pockets benefit,same with toned MPLs,lasered Saints,and ANY other area of the numismatic markets for specialty collecting.As i said in my last post,the only person that is blatantly full of it is fanofcoins,who,BTW,still nobody has vouched for.Dont take it personal,it wasnt.Lloyd >>
Lloyd,
Never took it personal. Anyone with an avatar of Jerry is alright by me.
Well........................... after all this talk about fading colors on BC coins, I had to dig mine out to see for myself how mine were holding up. I have one of each date and they are of the monster type colors I am happy to report that my four coins look...............................just as cool today as the day I bought them.
This is probaly not the news those who contend these coins are AT would like to hear, but so be it. I have collected toned Morgans for many years and I just love threads like these. Every one has opions and they are all entitled to them.
Have a colorful day
Edited to add that I would like to be invited in the room with Doug and Lloyd, and I'm sure there is room for Mikey too
<< <i><< I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
Please, please, tell us more!! >>
All I can say is that it involves a tip jar and a very generous Quizno's customer. The only additional detail that I'm allowed to reveal is that the Quizno's manager personally witnessed the opening of the jar as well as the napkin package.
Russ, NCNE >>
A blatant example of CT................condiment toning! Let me guess............... Vibrant tomato reds, mustard yellows and relish green. I like mine blast mayonase white.
<< <i><< I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
Please, please, tell us more!! >>
All I can say is that it involves a tip jar and a very generous Quizno's customer. The only additional detail that I'm allowed to reveal is that the Quizno's manager personally witnessed the opening of the jar as well as the napkin package.
Russ, NCNE >>
A blantant example of CT................condiment toning! Let me guess. Vibrant tomato reds, mustard yellows and relish green. I like mine blast mayonnaise white. >>
<< <i>I'm with Ahooka......this could get very interesting. I watched as these hit the market, though not being a toner guy (mostly), seeing the $$ results for these BC's.......and with the potential for these to NOT be NT, this could be a nightmare in the making.
To those that DO own these BC's, and are seeing them turn (rapidly, from what I guess), what are your feelings on the NT vs AT topic on this? Could NT Morgans turn THIS rapidly? Not trying to stir the pot, just looking for opinions.
For those that DID buy, with the understanding they ARE NT (wasnt there a big thread about the validity of these being NT), do you have second thoughts now? Thank you for your answers, as I know this must be a sore topic right about now.....thank you! >>
Whew!
This thing is still going on?!?!?
I never said anything about turning rapidly, nothing could be further from the truth. I simply responded to the OP with something I had noticed as well.
I can compare, side by side, with other monster toned Morgans that my monster BC has indeed faded just a bit in the purple and blue hues. That's all.
It seemed to jibe with the OP's original opinion/observation.
I still think they are NT, FWIW, but obviously the jury is still out among many.
Here's the deal, we have 2 coins out of some 1400 that seem to have changed a bit. Just a bit in my case. I'd think until we have reports regarding a much larger population out of the 1400, that no conclusion can be drawn. My lesser mini-monster remains just as it was from day one.
No solid conclusion can be made until we have: 1)A much larger population sample to draw from, or 2)More time passes and we see this occur over many if not all of the coins in question.
I would never have even posted my thoughts on my high $$ BC if I hadn't seen the OP's post/thread to start with because one example does not a scientifically significant population make. Nor does two of them, for that matter.
Let's see where we are in a couple more years, that should end the speculation once and for all, though it probably won't.
I want to see pictures of Russ' newly discovered Quizno hoard! Then we need to see them again in a couple of years. We could have a new type description for toned coins, the QT.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Deadhorse (how fitting...lol), if you read my post on page 11, I freely gave up that nowhere did I see the word rapidly. I should NOT have used the word 'rapidly'.
<<< Really, all of this unfounded speculation on the part of people with little experience in collecting or handling toned dollars >>>
As usual, they are also typically the ones who voice the loudest and strongest opinions.
<<< Show me a BC coin that has "rapidly changed" or darkened, or faded ... and I'll be the first to be very vocal in demanding explanations. But I haven't seen any such thing yet ... >>>
......and I don't expect you will see one anytime soon. If the colors on these coins was going to go south in a big way it would have happened already, starting with the coins with the most vibrant colors.
I wasnt going to post again, and this IS my final post on this thread. I edited the word 'rapidly' from my original post, but if you read the whole thing, I also said "from what I guess", meaning if the toning is changing so soon after purchasing them, I just wanted opinions from those that DID spend $$$$ on them...INFO, OPINION on toners was all I was looking for, to find out if there were sudden doubt, as I am NOT an expert on toners (though we seem to have at least ONE expert). The MOC episode,, how soon we forget.....I certainly apologize to those EXPERTS that know EVERYTHING about toners, and dont wish to politely correct or advise those of us who are NOT experts. Remember this, doctors have fooled the TPG's before, and for those of you ( I will not name any specific names) who are EXPERTS (or who THINK they are), remember THIS: never forget the past, as if you do, it is bound to repeat itself.
reedited so as to not lower myself some of your levels
<< <i>Deadhorse (how fitting...lol), if you read my post on page 11, I freely gave up that nowhere did I see the word rapidly. I should NOT have used the word 'rapidly'. >>
How fitting??
Hey........ nobody beats a dead horse!!!
Yeah, I read your previous post, I was just trying to make it clear once again that the change was ever so slight. Frankly, had I not had a couple of other Morgans to use as a benchmark from when I first got the coin, I'd probably never have noticed it.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Just think in a few more years you may have a beautiful WHITE BC Morgan!
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Comments
silver dollars .
He NEVER saw any dollars come out of those bags that were toned like the B.C. coins .
<< <i>why is it that while those who tend to feel the coins are AT question the circumstances and origin of the coins, while those who feel the coins are NT tend to want to impign the integrity of any who disagree with them??? that to me is disconcerting. my view is that this whole thing is all about marketing, personal integrity and large financial involvement for several collectors/dealers and organizations such as NGC/Superior. we just need to "trust" these experts. the trouble is that we've all been fooled before. Mr. DeFalco's angst is a bit insulting to me. these big dealers and self-acknowledged experts are as much the problem as they are the solution, giving us names and information when it seems to serve their purpose and withholding the same when it accomplishes the same result. >>
Keets -- I'm curious, how do you find my angst (which the dictionary defines as a feeling of anxiety) a bit insulting to you? I wasn't aware that a "feeling" one may be experiencing could be capable of insulting another? Please help me to understand this so I don't insult you in the future.
Now allow me to clarify a couple of points for you. (1) I'm not a "big" dealer. Heritage is big, Spectrum is big, Superior is big, etc. I'm just a small dealer who has been in the coin business continuously since November, 1973. (2) I am a nationally acknowledged (not self-acknowledged) expert within the professional numismatic community in the area of superb originally toned Morgan dollars and classic silver commemoratives along with prooflike and deep mirror prooflike Morgan dollars. BTW, I do possess the credentials to back this statement up. In my humble opinion the "self-acknowledged" experts to whom you refer are among a number of the posters here who are not full-time professionals in the field of numismatics and whose opinions are without substance or foundation.
It's genuine shame that there is so much virulent anti-dealer sentiment on these boards because you folks are missing out on a literal goldmine of knowledge that would willingly be shared with you were it not for the atmosphere of animosity and hatred toward the dealer community in general. I for one seldom post here and plan to keep it that way. In Matthew 7:6 Jesus says..."nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." I think I'd be wise to follow His advice.
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>What i am sure about is that just like stock chat boards,people spreading FUD,fear,uncertainty,and doubt,without any backup or factual information are doing it for their own benefit.If a market for anything is helped or hurt by baseless assaults on any kind of area of numismatics,its probably because somebody is looking to profit from the FUD created.
I have never been one motivated by profit in the numismatic arena, and my experience and discussions in the past here would confirm this. There is no way I know to short a Battle Creek Morgan, so I do not see how anyone could profit by spreading FUD.
190 posts to this thread and I killed it with my above post....
Happy now?
RYK,I WAS NOT talking about you.I was i believe the first to answer your original post or close to the first.I had suggested a few opinions of mine,however your simple question was used by others to basicly scare people about monster toned dollars,and all BC dollars,and within the first 20 posts it was the AT/NT b.s. again.My primary area of collecting is that area.When people get fear,uncertainty and doubt,AND it has happened in the past,market value can be affected.People sell scared,others buy cheap,and after awhile,prices come back up.If you want though i can ask a question about old gold that i thought might have darkened in a slab and believe it,someone will have a motive,and if the values went down,only those with the real deep pockets benefit,same with toned MPLs,lasered Saints,and ANY other area of the numismatic markets for specialty collecting.As i said in my last post,the only person that is blatantly full of it is fanofcoins,who,BTW,still nobody has vouched for.Dont take it personal,it wasnt.Lloyd
The BC dollars are absolutely, positively
genuine, NT and verified to be 100%++
okey dokey.However, on the other hand,
they might not be. Or, most of them are okey dokey
but a few might of been slipped in and are not alright.
The mystery about the owner, continues to fuel the story
telling. This will probably go down in history, as one of the tall
tales of the West.
Camelot
< what I would love to write here
is neither polite nor printable >
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>I just got off the phone with a man that in the early '60`s was privy to personally opening or being present to ;the opening of countless original bags of
silver dollars .
He NEVER saw any dollars come out of those bags that were toned like the B.C. coins . >>
HRH has posted here in the not too distant past about the many many toned Morgans he has seen over the years. I wonder what he thinks of the BC coins. Just musing out loud.
<< <i>
<< <i>looks like it's going to be the area 51 of coin collecting with folks continuing to crawl out of the woodwork to say the coins are unquestionably AT and that as their coins darkened in the coming decades they saw an image of the virgin Mary in lady Liberty's hair.....
look, it's comments like the one above that are really ridiculous. the whole discussion grew from a collector saying he thought one of his two coins seemed less intense while the other appeared unchanged and naturally the old suspicion was revived. Sunnywood, you seem to get back to the same defensive position that rests on some special qualification to judge tone on a Morgan, as though being a Morgan specialist is a requirement. i don't necessarily agree with that just as i don't agree with the assertions of the "experts" that their opinions need to be trusted. perhaps that was a certainty in the past, but times have changed, information has been disemminated and we are all a bit wiser.
NGC has been fooled to an embarrassing degree and, along with PCGS, recently took steps to combat things by issuing it's statement to dealers. by your own admission this group of coins was unprecedented. by the admission of most prominent dealers and by the pre-emminent grading services the proponents of AT are ahead of the detection ability, creating coins which fool us all. again, why would i trust the experts?? i have seen no forum member, no dealer, no organization and no grading service without some bias or self-interest in these coins come forward to endorse them. maybe that has happened and i haven't seen it, but it would probably be reassuring to everyone, seeing as there is so much self-serving secrecy offered by those who would be most adversely affected by anything negative about the BC's.
i don't know one way or the other but i suspect AT more than i accept NT. >>
You found my comment to be rediculous which was exactly my point...........what exactly are you adding to this discussion?
Apparently the supposition must be that NT coins don't fade/lose color intensity and AT coins do. So if the RYK coin did indeed lose color intensity then it MUST be AT.
<< <i>It's genuine shame that there is so much virulent anti-dealer sentiment on these boards because you folks are missing out on a literal goldmine of knowledge that would willingly be shared with you were it not for the atmosphere of animosity and hatred toward the dealer community in general. I for one seldom post here and plan to keep it that way. In Matthew 7:6 Jesus says..."nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." I think I'd be wise to follow His advice. >>
Mikey, I don't hate dealers. I try not to judge people. Though my wife may call me a pig from time to time, I don't consider myself swine. It may look different from your high point of view. Maybe you should follow His advice and read the bible a little more.
<< <i>I just got off the phone with a man that in the early '60`s was privy to personally opening or being present to ;the opening of countless original bags of
silver dollars .
He NEVER saw any dollars come out of those bags that were toned like the B.C. coins . >>
I've opened 2 original bags of Morgan dollars. All (for the most part) of the blast white, no stunning toners. Granted, these two experiences don't mean much in the over history of mint bags.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
To those that DO own these BC's, and are seeing them turn, what are your feelings on the NT vs AT topic on this? Could NT Morgans turn THIS rapidly? Not trying to stir the pot, just looking for opinions.
For those that DID buy, with the understanding they ARE NT (wasnt there a big thread about the validity of these being NT), do you have second thoughts now? Thank you for your answers, as I know this must be a sore topic right about now.....thank you!
Really, all of this unfounded speculation on the part of people with little experience in collecting or handling toned dollars is just foolishness. I advise all of you to refrain from buying any toned coins at all, and instead, to fill your collection with white coins. Of course, very few of you will be able to determine which ones are naturally white, and which ones are chemically altered, dipped, artificially white coins. But at least that way you'll be comfortable with the coins you own, just as I am very pleased with mine.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
edited to add: I have no opinion either way...you buy what you like...I just remember the donnybrook over these being NT vs AT...and when this thread popped up, was simply concerned with the thoughts of those that have theirs turning drastically, in short time.
<< <i>I'm with Ahooka......this could get very interesting. I watched as these hit the market, though not being a toner guy (mostly), seeing the $$ results for these BC's.......and with the potential for these to NOT be NT, this could be a nightmare in the making.
To those that DO own these BC's, and are seeing them turn (rapidly, from what I guess), what are your feelings on the NT vs AT topic on this? Could NT Morgans turn THIS rapidly? Not trying to stir the pot, just looking for opinions.
For those that DID buy, with the understanding they ARE NT (wasnt there a big thread about the validity of these being NT), do you have second thoughts now? Thank you for your answers, as I know this must be a sore topic right about now.....thank you! >>
One person thinks that one coin may have possibly faded over a year's time since he last saw it. How does that equate to owners of these coins seeing them change drastically over a short amount of time. Can you cite even one proven instance where one of these has changed?
One person thinks that one coin may have possibly faded over a year's time since he last saw it. How does that equate to owners of these coins seeing them change drastically over a short amount of time. Can you cite even one proven instance where one of these has changed?
Quite right Bajjerfan, all this talk about rapidly changing coins is simply a fantasy. Ther aren't any. If there were, I'd be the first to ask all the questions !!! Not that I doubt RYK's observation, but even he confesses that he is not certain whether he sees any actual fading.
Show me a BC coin that has "rapidly changed" or darkened, or faded ... and I'll be the first to be very vocal in demanding explanations. But I haven't seen any such thing yet ...
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>
<< <i>It's genuine shame that there is so much virulent anti-dealer sentiment on these boards because you folks are missing out on a literal goldmine of knowledge that would willingly be shared with you were it not for the atmosphere of animosity and hatred toward the dealer community in general. I for one seldom post here and plan to keep it that way. In Matthew 7:6 Jesus says..."nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." I think I'd be wise to follow His advice. >>
Mikey, I don't hate dealers. I try not to judge people. Though my wife may call me a pig from time to time, I don't consider myself swine. It may look different from your high point of view. Maybe you should follow His advice and read the bible a little more. >>
stinky2005: I didn't mean to infer that "everyone" on these boards hates coin dealers, but as I said, a virulent anti-dealer sentiment is pervasive here and rears it ugly head quite often. I also don't think all the folks here are literally "swine" -- I was simply using that passage of scripture to make a point. I probably should have paraphrased it to go something like this..."nor share your educated (through years of battlefield experience) professional opinion with the anti-dealer faction because they'll stomp all over you and tear you to shreds." BTW, I do read the Bible every single day and I am a follower of Jesus. This is not to say that I don't blow it -- because I do! I'm just a sinner (like everyone else) saved by His grace.
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
edited to add: NEVER did I give opinion as to whether they were NT or AT.
<< <i>I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE
edited to add:
<< <i>
<< <i>I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
Please, please, tell us more!!
<< <i><< I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
Please, please, tell us more!! >>
All I can say is that it involves a tip jar and a very generous Quizno's customer. The only additional detail that I'm allowed to reveal is that the Quizno's manager personally witnessed the opening of the jar as well as the napkin package.
Russ, NCNE
Edited to add, I still have no opinion on the original intentions of this thread, but it has been very entertaining and enlightening!
<< <i>
<< <i>I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
You need to get NGC to slab them first and sell them to Anaconda.
<< <i>
<< <i>What i am sure about is that just like stock chat boards,people spreading FUD,fear,uncertainty,and doubt,without any backup or factual information are doing it for their own benefit.If a market for anything is helped or hurt by baseless assaults on any kind of area of numismatics,its probably because somebody is looking to profit from the FUD created.
I have never been one motivated by profit in the numismatic arena, and my experience and discussions in the past here would confirm this. There is no way I know to short a Battle Creek Morgan, so I do not see how anyone could profit by spreading FUD.
190 posts to this thread and I killed it with my above post....
Happy now?
RYK,I WAS NOT talking about you.I was i believe the first to answer your original post or close to the first.I had suggested a few opinions of mine,however your simple question was used by others to basicly scare people about monster toned dollars,and all BC dollars,and within the first 20 posts it was the AT/NT b.s. again.My primary area of collecting is that area.When people get fear,uncertainty and doubt,AND it has happened in the past,market value can be affected.People sell scared,others buy cheap,and after awhile,prices come back up.If you want though i can ask a question about old gold that i thought might have darkened in a slab and believe it,someone will have a motive,and if the values went down,only those with the real deep pockets benefit,same with toned MPLs,lasered Saints,and ANY other area of the numismatic markets for specialty collecting.As i said in my last post,the only person that is blatantly full of it is fanofcoins,who,BTW,still nobody has vouched for.Dont take it personal,it wasnt.Lloyd >>
Lloyd,
Never took it personal. Anyone with an avatar of Jerry is alright by me.
RYK
to see for myself how mine were holding up. I have one of each date and they are of the monster type colors
I am happy to report that my four coins look...............................just as cool today as the day I bought them.
This is probaly not the news those who contend these coins are AT would like to hear, but so be it. I have collected toned Morgans for many years and I just love threads like these. Every one has opions and they are all entitled to them.
Have a colorful day
Edited to add that I would like to be invited in the room with Doug and Lloyd, and I'm sure there is room for Mikey too
Rainbow Stars
<< <i>
<< <i><< I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
Please, please, tell us more!! >>
All I can say is that it involves a tip jar and a very generous Quizno's customer. The only additional detail that I'm allowed to reveal is that the Quizno's manager personally witnessed the opening of the jar as well as the napkin package.
Russ, NCNE >>
A blatant example of CT................condiment toning!
Let me guess...............
Vibrant tomato reds, mustard yellows and relish green. I like mine blast mayonase white.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><< I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
Please, please, tell us more!! >>
All I can say is that it involves a tip jar and a very generous Quizno's customer. The only additional detail that I'm allowed to reveal is that the Quizno's manager personally witnessed the opening of the jar as well as the napkin package.
Russ, NCNE >>
A blantant example of CT................condiment toning! Let me guess.
Vibrant tomato reds, mustard yellows and relish green. I like mine blast mayonnaise white. >>
Very clever.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I'm with Ahooka......this could get very interesting. I watched as these hit the market, though not being a toner guy (mostly), seeing the $$ results for these BC's.......and with the potential for these to NOT be NT, this could be a nightmare in the making.
To those that DO own these BC's, and are seeing them turn (rapidly, from what I guess), what are your feelings on the NT vs AT topic on this? Could NT Morgans turn THIS rapidly? Not trying to stir the pot, just looking for opinions.
For those that DID buy, with the understanding they ARE NT (wasnt there a big thread about the validity of these being NT), do you have second thoughts now? Thank you for your answers, as I know this must be a sore topic right about now.....thank you! >>
Whew!
This thing is still going on?!?!?
I never said anything about turning rapidly, nothing could be further from the truth. I simply responded to the OP with something I had noticed as well.
I can compare, side by side, with other monster toned Morgans that my monster BC has indeed faded just a bit in the purple and blue hues. That's all.
It seemed to jibe with the OP's original opinion/observation.
I still think they are NT, FWIW, but obviously the jury is still out among many.
Here's the deal, we have 2 coins out of some 1400 that seem to have changed a bit. Just a bit in my case. I'd think until we have reports regarding a much larger population out of the 1400, that no conclusion can be drawn. My lesser mini-monster remains just as it was from day one.
No solid conclusion can be made until we have: 1)A much larger population sample to draw from, or 2)More time passes and we see this occur over many if not all of the coins in question.
I would never have even posted my thoughts on my high $$ BC if I hadn't seen the OP's post/thread to start with because one example does not a scientifically significant population make. Nor does two of them, for that matter.
Let's see where we are in a couple more years, that should end the speculation once and for all, though it probably won't.
I want to see pictures of Russ' newly discovered Quizno hoard! Then we need to see them again in a couple of years. We could have a new type description for toned coins, the QT.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
As usual, they are also typically the ones who voice the loudest and strongest opinions.
<<< Show me a BC coin that has "rapidly changed" or darkened, or faded ... and I'll be the first to be very vocal in demanding explanations. But I haven't seen any such thing yet ... >>>
......and I don't expect you will see one anytime soon. If the colors on these coins was going to go south in a big way it would have happened already, starting with the coins with the most vibrant colors.
<< <i>
<< <i>I just wanted to note that I currently have two toners in from the famed Quizno's Napkin Hoard.
Russ, NCNE >>
Isn't anybody interested in the details of this fabulous hoard?
Russ, NCNE >>
Only if the colors are fading
reedited so as to not lower myself some of your levels
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Deadhorse (how fitting...lol), if you read my post on page 11, I freely gave up that nowhere did I see the word rapidly. I should NOT have used the word 'rapidly'. >>
How fitting??
Hey........ nobody beats a dead horse!!!
Yeah, I read your previous post, I was just trying to make it clear once again that the change was ever so slight. Frankly, had I not had a couple of other Morgans to use as a benchmark from when I first got the coin, I'd probably never have noticed it.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>RYK....sounds like you got the bad ones in the bunch
Just my luck.
This is as ludicrous as saying the Continential Illinois Hoard was AT'd or that the Goverment AT'd all those "Mixed CC" GSA Hoard coins.
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!