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PAYPAL Policy: an open invitation to steal your coins !
PawPaul
Posts: 5,845 ✭
I just got off the phone with a business partner in the Chicago area ,and am alarmed by what he told me .
Apparently , since it has become common knowledge here on the boards that even with Registered Mail and Signature Conformation, it is not enough to protect oneself from a charge-back - The floodgates have been opened for any chump that wants to rip you off on a technicality .
His buyer of a 2000$ coin is claiming he never received the coin - even though the tracking info. shows the Registered mail/Signature Conformation parcel delivered to his house ; it was signed for by his wife .
Because it was not signed for specifically by the buyer , same buyer figures he`s going to pocket the coin and claim he never received it .
Irregardless of Paypal doing a charge-back , I told him I hoped the Postal Inspectors would view it as interstate mail fraud - knowing how they treat their precious Registered Mail reputation .
Even with Restricted Delivery , you will be at the mercy of the postal delivery person - as to whether or not they get the right signature .
Bottom line is using Paypal for expensive items is no different the playing Russian Roulette`
Apparently , since it has become common knowledge here on the boards that even with Registered Mail and Signature Conformation, it is not enough to protect oneself from a charge-back - The floodgates have been opened for any chump that wants to rip you off on a technicality .
His buyer of a 2000$ coin is claiming he never received the coin - even though the tracking info. shows the Registered mail/Signature Conformation parcel delivered to his house ; it was signed for by his wife .
Because it was not signed for specifically by the buyer , same buyer figures he`s going to pocket the coin and claim he never received it .
Irregardless of Paypal doing a charge-back , I told him I hoped the Postal Inspectors would view it as interstate mail fraud - knowing how they treat their precious Registered Mail reputation .
Even with Restricted Delivery , you will be at the mercy of the postal delivery person - as to whether or not they get the right signature .
Bottom line is using Paypal for expensive items is no different the playing Russian Roulette`
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and who will be the major competition
they are really cutting into their collector 'venue'
and trying to make it a Wal-Mart
Once a certain element figured the Paypal angle and how to game the system, the beginning of the end started. Needs to be a patch installed pretty soon...
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
UPS and crooked buyers. And crooked sellers
have dirtied the water also with counterfeits and
false advertising.
The only answer is to avoid them all but now the
question --- how can coins be sold??
Answer--over the counter with coin in hand.
Just don't do it - and don't put yourself in that position.
there are criminals everyplace these days.
<< <i>that is why I specifically do not take PP for large money items.
Just don't do it - and don't put yourself in that position.
there are criminals everyplace these days. >>
DITTO
I mean , they themselves could not try any harder to shoot themselves in the foot .
Ebay must reap untold millions in profit from Paypal charges, and it makes absolutely no sense to essentially drive the sellers from there business -
without sellers you can have no buyers .
UPS and crooked buyers."
It sure seems to have come to that, and the new Feebay feedback policy only makes it worse.
Sounds like there needs to be a class action suit AGAINST PP.
They are very simply middlemen who seem to think you (the seller) are at their mercy, while they
siphon off funds from your transcations.
Since you have all the contact info of this person, report them to the AG's office for fraud.
While you doing this also file a report on PP.
<< <i>I have avoided PP and EB completely. They may work for some/many - but absolutely not for me!
They are very simply middlemen who seem to think you (the seller) are at their mercy, while they
siphon off funds from your transcations.
Since you have all the contact info of this person, report them to the AG's office for fraud.
While you doing this also file a report on PP. >>
A certified letter with return receipt to the bad guy demanding payment or return of goods would also be in order, as that is probably one of the ducks you'll have to have in the row.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
My Odds&Ends eBay Stuff to fuel my coin habit (No Coins)
He sounds sincere, but the whole thing stinks. I guess I could have made a mistake, but the point is PayPal is no help here.
I could not believe it. I said look at his feedback saying he got the coin and they said oh well.
ErrorOnCoins
PS now with the No Negative feedback for buyers policy, it will a scam artists heaven.
At the very least it can help for my peace of mind that I packed what
needed to be packed. It's also a great way to keep records - even of
the labels - and 8MP digital cameras are now pretty cheap (< $175).
<< <i>I often take digital camera photographs when packing items for mailing.
At the very least it can help for my peace of mind that I packed what
needed to be packed. It's also a great way to keep records - even of
the labels - and 8MP digital cameras are now pretty cheap (< $175). >>
Don't mean squat; you can always "unpack" after the photo-op.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have avoided PP and EB completely. They may work for some/many - but absolutely not for me!
They are very simply middlemen who seem to think you (the seller) are at their mercy, while they
siphon off funds from your transcations.
Since you have all the contact info of this person, report them to the AG's office for fraud.
While you doing this also file a report on PP. >>
A certified letter with return receipt to the bad guy demanding payment or return of goods would also be in order, as that is probably one of the ducks you'll have to have in the row. >>
Exactly. That only means that you have been screwed by some technicality of PayPal; it certainly doesn't mean that you have no other recourse. I'd consider calling the law enforcement folks in his area of residence.
accepts credit cards, period. Chargebacks are a fact of life - it is just a bad business expense. Nothing unique to
PayPal at all.
If you owned a store and took credit cards, you would get chargebacks, too.
If you enter into the acceptance of credit cards (regardless of the service used for this) it is always a factor.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
Steve
<< <i>What is interesting about this ENTIRE thread is the fact that what you describe happens to every businessman that
accepts credit cards, period. Chargebacks are a fact of life - it is just a bad business expense. Nothing unique to
PayPal at all.
If you owned a store and took credit cards, you would get chargebacks, too.
If you enter into the acceptance of credit cards (regardless of the service used for this) it is always a factor.
John >>
The brick and mortar store charge backs are mostly from stolen CC, which why some smart stores ask for ID
I've had the issue before where I had sold a guy a 4pc set of Gold Eagles for spot, he received the coins, then issued a chargeback with his credit card company. I provided PayPal with the copy of the signature from the Registered Mail package, and originally PayPal sided with the buyer, and I b****ed and a few hours later I had my money back when PP reversed their decision.
Under PayPals seller protection, you have to ship to the confirmed address (though with the new program if you're an eBay Powerseller, and the sale is through eBay, you only have to ship to the address provided by the buyer in the transaction... no more confirmed addresses for that) and if they claim they never received it, you just have to provide proof that it was delivered. I even got a clarification from one of the PP Higher Ups that Registered Mail signature and Express Mail signature satisfies the requirements of "Signature Confirmation" on packages over $250.
42/92
After 30 days buyer files claim to paypal item was broken. I faxed all the information to paypal, they still want to do a chargeback.
Item was a home security system still new in the box from Costco. The part the buyer said was broken absolutely was not broken when shipped to the US address. I will no longer paypal payment for items over $100. Paypal is inviting people to scam others!
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<< <i>
<< <i>What is interesting about this ENTIRE thread is the fact that what you describe happens to every businessman that accepts credit cards, period. Chargebacks are a fact of life - it is just a bad business expense. Nothing unique to PayPal at all. If you owned a store and took credit cards, you would get chargebacks, too. If you enter into the acceptance of credit cards (regardless of the service used for this) it is always a factor. John >>
The brick and mortar store charge backs are mostly from stolen CC, which why some smart stores ask for ID >>
you get a lot more info about an online buyer than many people realize. When I am at all concerned I call them and chat with them. Learn to recognize a high risk buyer. --jerry
<< <i>What is interesting about this ENTIRE thread is the fact that what you describe happens to every businessman that
accepts credit cards, period. Chargebacks are a fact of life - it is just a bad business expense. Nothing unique to
PayPal at all.
If you owned a store and took credit cards, you would get chargebacks, too.
If you enter into the acceptance of credit cards (regardless of the service used for this) it is always a factor.
John >>
John - can`t Paypal do a chargeback even if the buyer did not use a c.c. ? For example , he paid directly from his Paypal linked checking account ?
Link to USPS
It's highway robbery. It is your word against theirs. I am shocked PayPal is letting this happen. Anyone with average intelligence can see how this is the easiest way for criminals to steal without any recourse what-so-ever. I think I am going to give up on PayPal for high dollar items, except if I am a buyer
I'll admit, I have video taped myself opening and sealing packages. I got an Express mail package from PCGS that was destroyed. I could stick my entire hand into the package BEFORE I opened it.
I had a guy yesterday call me and said he didn't get a COA for a 2007 American Legacy collection. I told him to look a little harder for it because they are hidden and they can get shoved way down into the pocket they are put into. He called me on the phone and said he wanted a replacement COA so I got one in the mail. I told him I took the package out of the US Mint box and put it directly into a USPS Flat Rate box without inspecting it (I have never, ever had a problem with any US Mint item not having paperwork). Then, he sent me an email saying he wanted to return the coins?!?!
These horror stories are getting worse and more frequent. What is PayPal's incentive to stop it? They aren't out the money, the seller is. And it seems that without PayPal, a lot of sellers would lose business. Is this kind of frustration going to be par with doing business on eBay?
<< <i>Was it sent to a confirmed address? Was it an eBay sale? Did you get the proof of delivery (copy of signature) from the post office? If so, did you send that to PayPal?
I've had the issue before where I had sold a guy a 4pc set of Gold Eagles for spot, he received the coins, then issued a chargeback with his credit card company. I provided PayPal with the copy of the signature from the Registered Mail package, and originally PayPal sided with the buyer, and I b****ed and a few hours later I had my money back when PP reversed their decision.
Under PayPals seller protection, you have to ship to the confirmed address (though with the new program if you're an eBay Powerseller, and the sale is through eBay, you only have to ship to the address provided by the buyer in the transaction... no more confirmed addresses for that) and if they claim they never received it, you just have to provide proof that it was delivered. I even got a clarification from one of the PP Higher Ups that Registered Mail signature and Express Mail signature satisfies the requirements of "Signature Confirmation" on packages over $250. >>
wow , this info is a real eye opener ......but it contradicts some of the things already discussed here:
It was indeed sent to a confirmed address
It was indeed an Ebay sale from a verified Paypal account
The seller has copies of everything, including all tracking info and the signatures on the proof of delivery documents
The seller has every intention of contacting the local police force in the buyer's state
...what is contradicting:
I have read here on posts repeatedly of people getting riped off on a Paypal technicality; if the higher ups @ P.P. have modified their policy-thats great,
but I suspect P.P. policy depends on the opinion of the P.P. investigator handling each individual case
<< <i>
I have read here on posts repeatedly of people getting riped off on a Paypal technicality; if the higher ups @ P.P. have modified their policy-thats great,
but I suspect P.P. policy depends on the opinion of the P.P. investigator handling each individual case >>
What matters is what is in the user agreement and little else. There is no way that a registered package could qualify 100% for PayPal seller's protection even w/signature confirmation.
(The funny thing is that discussing this out in the open is inviting all the little trolls that lurk here to screw a seller. We're just feeding them the knowldge to do it.)
ain`t that the truth ...........
<< <i>
<< <i>
I have read here on posts repeatedly of people getting riped off on a Paypal technicality; if the higher ups @ P.P. have modified their policy-thats great,
but I suspect P.P. policy depends on the opinion of the P.P. investigator handling each individual case >>
What matters is what is in the user agreement and little else. There is no way that a registered package could qualify 100% for PayPal seller's protection even w/signature confirmation.
(The funny thing is that discussing this out in the open is inviting all the little trolls that lurk here to screw a seller. We're just feeding them the knowldge to do it.) >>
That still doesn't give one the right to rip someone off. Just because the buyer was able sneak something thru on a PP technicality doesn't mean that there is no crime or fraud present. Like in driving, just because anither driver may be in the wrong doesn't give you the right to hit him. Basically it means that you will need a venue other than eBay/PP to recover your funds.
<< <i>
<< <i>What is interesting about this ENTIRE thread is the fact that what you describe happens to every businessman that
accepts credit cards, period. Chargebacks are a fact of life - it is just a bad business expense. Nothing unique to
PayPal at all.
If you owned a store and took credit cards, you would get chargebacks, too.
If you enter into the acceptance of credit cards (regardless of the service used for this) it is always a factor.
John >>
John - can`t Paypal do a chargeback even if the buyer did not use a c.c. ? For example , he paid directly from his Paypal linked checking account ? >>
Hi Paul:
Not a chargeback, though they might put a hold on monies pending an investigation (as someone else described above). The key
thing is to follow all of the guidelines to ensure that seller (or buyer) protection kicks in. In my experience (which is somewhat limited),
after the investigation they will do right by the seller. If, on the other hand, the seller does not follow the guidelines, then they are SOL...
Regarding other forms of payment, not even a cleared check is secure (this has been discussed many times here). The issuing bank can request
cancellation of an already-cleared personal check, for example, at any time, and, it is my understanding, the receiving bank must honor that
request...
When we talk about dirt bags who have the goods and do a chargeback, or something similar, what we are really talking about
is criminal activity, i.e., some form of theft. You have to then take some sort of action (police report, mail fraud, small claims court, whatever)
in order to get your money back...
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>The honest seller is at the mercy of eBay, paypal,
UPS and crooked buyers. And crooked sellers
have dirtied the water also with counterfeits and
false advertising.
The only answer is to avoid them all but now the
question --- how can coins be sold??
Answer--over the counter with coin in hand. >>
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
It's a whole lot easier to bid higher , and on more lots , when you don't have any money .......... if your paying using plastic .
I think T.T.'s on thin ice again and they are trying to grab on to any life preserver available