Open Offer to Owners of 1854 & 1855 Large Flying Eagle Patterns

RKKay · February 3, 2008 2:15AM

As many of you know, I am researching all facets of the 1854 & 1855 LFEs. One importantt portion of this research is testing for metallic content via Scanning Electron Microscope Energy Dispersive X-Ray (SEM-EDX). This is non-invasive testing in which s-rays are shot at the coin, and the usrface layer of the coin is "analyzed."

My offer/request:

I will deliver your coin to PCGS or NGC. They will crack out the coin and send it to a laboratory for testing. The coin (and results) will be sent back to PCGS or NGC. PCGS or NGC will re-slab the coin at the same grade as previously slabbed, with the composition and weight on the slab. I'll pay for the testing. If the coin is not already slabbed, I'll pay for slabbing fees to get the coin graded, in addition to paying for the testing. If you prefer that the previously unslabbed coin remain raw, I will take the coin to the lab myself. I can also send coins in other TPG slabs to PCGS or NGC for cross and testing.

Timeframes (from time delivered to PCGS/NGC):

PCGS-slabbed coins to PCGS for testing only--> up to 4 months

NGC-slabbed coins to NGC for tetsting only--> up to 1.5 months

Raw coins for testing only--> up to 1 month

Raw (or other--TPG-slabbed) coins to PCGS for testing and slabbing--> up to 5 months

Raw (or other-TPG-slabbed) coins to NGC for testing and slabbing--> up to 2.5 months

PM or email me at rkkay@rick-kay-rare-coins.com if you have questions or are interested.

Rick

ahooka454 · February 3, 2008 2:22AM

Wow, I cant wait to hear some of your findings. Sounds like very interesting and detailed work.

RKKay · February 3, 2008 2:23AM

Some of the coins are here.

ahooka454 · February 3, 2008 2:31AM

Amazing, all of them are simply amazing. I really like the color on J-170A. Just has that look. I would think a set of those and Flying Eagles with 1856 & all the varieties.

The more I read and learn about some of our patterns, the more interested I become.

Thank you for your work and contribution to our wonderful hobby.

RKKay · February 3, 2008 2:43AM

Thanks. So far, SO many people have facilitated this research.

drwstr123 · February 3, 2008 3:09AM

Wow! The J-167 obverse is HAMMERED.

RKKay · February 3, 2008 4:08AM

That is one of the sharpest 167/168 obverses I've seen.

CaptHenway · February 3, 2008 5:17AM

I know that we did X-ray tests on a few of these while I was at ANACS back in 1978-1984, so you might ask the current ANACS if they have copies of the findings. The current ANA will not.

I do not have copies of them, but remember being surprised at the trace elements that showed up.

Tom DeLorey

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 3, 2008 6:03AM

Rick: what does a non-destructive surface analysis cost (just out of curiosity)?

RKKay · February 3, 2008 6:12AM

Thanks, Tom.

Dave: It depends on how many coins you submit. If you submit 1 to PCGS or NGC, it'll run about $150 to $175. Four or more will drop it to about $100 per coin. When I take them to the lab myself, the rate is about $300/hour, and they can do 4 or 5 per hour.

Dealers: If any of your clients wwant this done, let me know. I'll pay.

BECOKA · February 3, 2008 6:34AM

This is a pretty cool endeavor.

You should also add PCGS or mgoodm photography to the list. It would be nice for historical purposes.

RKKay · February 3, 2008 6:42AM

<< This is a pretty cool endeavor.

You should also add PCGS or mgoodm photography to the list. It would be nice for historical purposes. >>

I will also pay for PCGS or NGC to provide their official photo service, if the owner requests it.

Unknown · February 3, 2008 7:57AM

This content has been removed.

firstmint · February 3, 2008 10:33AM

Rick has been one of the leaders of SEM-EDX testing for several years. In the field of Patterns it becomes a necessity to have accurate analysis done to determine what the item in question is actually made of. I heard secondhand that the metal composition can be determined within a 10th of one percent. Even trace elements are defined.

There are several labs around the country that can provide this service, yet I've never seen a listing for them in any numismatic text.

S&N labs in the SoCal area is among the best in working with its customers. I know that Rick, along with Alan Meghrig have been keeping them busy for years. Apparently, this is also where PCGS has their coins done (when requested) as well.

David Cassel's SEM-EDX work on his Postage Currency coins were handled by the same lab in Fla. that does NGC's tests.

It would certainly be beneficial if there was more awareness by the TPG's for this analysis to be performed on various numismatic items such as gold assay bars and issues where the compostion is in doubt.

"Hats Off" to Rick for being in the forefront of accuracy in American numismatics. His offer/request is most generous.

RKKay · February 3, 2008 11:06AM

<< Rick has been one of the leaders of SEM-EDX testing for several years. In the field of Patterns it becomes a necessity to have accurate analysis done to determine what the item in question is actually made of. I heard secondhand that the metal composition can be determined within a 10th of one percent. Even trace elements are defined.

There are several labs around the country that can provide this service, yet I've never seen a listing for them in any numismatic text.

S&N labs in the SoCal area is among the best in working with its customers. I know that Rick, along with Alan Meghrig have been keeping them busy for years. Apparently, this is also where PCGS has their coins done (when requested) as well.

David Cassel's SEM-EDX work on his Postage Currency coins were handled by the same lab in Fla. that does NGC's tests.

It would certainly be beneficial if there was more awareness by the TPG's for this analysis to be performed on various numismatic items such as gold assay bars and issues where the compostion is in doubt. >>

Thanks for the excessively nice comments, Alan and Karl. Alan Meghrig is the person who got me hooked on SEM-EDX. I use S&N exclusively to ensure consistency. Rick Montgomery has been good enough to use S&N for my coins.

SEM-EDX is very important for my research so that the LFEs can be properly attributed, and possibly to determine which coins are restrikes.

Lakesammman · February 3, 2008 12:22PM

Great project. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your research.

The first coin I ever saw tested came from Rick. I can tell you from personal experience, testing other coins through Rick over the years, that your coins couldn't be in better hands.

amiller · February 3, 2008 1:00PM

Am I missing something here? How will PCGS allow the coin they cracked out to leave their possession and guarantee they will re-slab it with the same grade? Couldn't all the handling potentially affect the grade?

RKKay · February 3, 2008 1:06PM

PCGS and NGC crack out their coins and send to S&N in a sealed envelope with corresponding paperwork. S&N tests the coins and places them in another sealed envelope and sends them back. PCGS or NGC re-slabs them at the same grade with the additional data.

EagleEye · February 3, 2008 1:14PM

Thanks Rick!

This is a very generous offer and I hope many people offer their coins.

Broadstruck · February 3, 2008 1:28PM

Broadstruck · February 3, 2008 1:36PM

EagleEye, Do you also Sticker the Large Flying Eagle Patterns if sent to you for review?

RKKay, What pattern would you send for collateral for the 4 months?

relicsncoins · February 3, 2008 1:48PM

Has PCGS ever done this for a milk spotted ASE, to try and determine the composition of the milk spot. This would seem to be a good step in determining the underlying problem. Sorry to get this post off topic. If you would like me to delete it and post in a new post I will.

JJ

RKKay · February 3, 2008 1:50PM

<< Has PCGS ever done this for a milk spotted ASE, to try and determine the composition of the milk spot. This would seem to be a good step in determining the underlying problem. Sorry to get this post off topic. If you would like me to delete it and post in a new post I will.

JJ >>

I doubt they have, as it is an expensive process. However, if someone is willing to pay for it, I'm sure they would.

relicsncoins · February 3, 2008 1:55PM

<< 

<< Has PCGS ever done this for a milk spotted ASE, to try and determine the composition of the milk spot. This would seem to be a good step in determining the underlying problem. Sorry to get this post off topic. If you would like me to delete it and post in a new post I will.

JJ >>

I doubt they have, as it is an expensive process. However, if someone is willing to pay for it, I'm sure they would. >>

I can't imagine it's more expensive than the grade guarentees they have had to pay out due to ASE's spotting. In fact, they have offered a 50,000 dollar reward for anyone who solves the problem.

JJ

Lakesammman · February 3, 2008 2:00PM

I'm not a chemist but I wonder if the milk spots are metallic and would have an x-ray spectra?

foodude · February 3, 2008 2:16PM

I'm not a chemist but I wonder if the milk spots are metallic and would have an x-ray spectra?

Sometimes I wish I were back in grad school. This would be a neat project.

EagleEye · February 3, 2008 2:33PM

It is nearly impossible to tell from look, weight, die state, strike what the actual alloy these coins are made of. Once Rick's study gets enough coins analyzed, then we'll know when, where, when, how many, and what really dosen't exist. It is a huge jig-saw puzzle.

Fun stuff.

BECOKA · February 3, 2008 4:02PM

<< 

<< Has PCGS ever done this for a milk spotted ASE, to try and determine the composition of the milk spot. This would seem to be a good step in determining the underlying problem. Sorry to get this post off topic. If you would like me to delete it and post in a new post I will.

JJ >>

I doubt they have, as it is an expensive process. However, if someone is willing to pay for it, I'm sure they would. >>

I believe PCGS has already spend close to 50K on this issue, what's a few hundred for a little research. PCGS is also offering 50K to the one who solves this issue.

RKKay · February 4, 2008 1:04AM

I actually think that x-rays would go right through the milk spots. Chemical analysis would be necessary.

CoinHusker · February 4, 2008 1:07AM

<< This is non-invasive testing in which s-rays are shot at the coin, and the usrface layer of the coin is "analyzed."
>>

Rick, if you use this technology on SAE's you might earn yourself that $50,000 reward PCGS is offering for finding a cause/solution to milk spots.

RKKay · February 4, 2008 2:39AM

<< RKKay, What pattern would you send for collateral for the 4 months?

>>

Schoolgirl dollar.

Broadstruck · February 4, 2008 2:49AM

Schoolgirl dollar

RKKay, Count me in as long as it's not one you mentioned with Roman Polanski Pedigree!

RKKay · February 4, 2008 3:25AM

Sorry. That's the one.

Open Offer to Owners of 1854 & 1855 Large Flying Eagle Patterns

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Open Offer to Owners of 1854 &amp; 1855 Large Flying Eagle Patterns

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Open Offer to Owners of 1854 & 1855 Large Flying Eagle Patterns