Rare Liberty Seated Dollar sells for $1.3million

dbcoin · January 30, 2008 3:20AM

Stanford Coins and Bullion Sells Rare 1870-S Seated Liberty Dollar for $1.3 Million

HOUSTON, Jan. 30 -- Houston-based Stanford Coins and Bullion announced it has sold the historic 1870-S Seated Liberty Dollar Eliasberg Specimen for $1.3 million to Certified Acceptance Corp. (CAC), a New Jersey- based company founded and owned by John Albanese. Stanford Coins and Bullion, part of the Stanford Financial Group of companies, serves investors in precious metals and collectors of rare collectible coins.

The 1870-S Seated Liberty Dollar Eliasberg Specimen is considered a U.S. numismatic treasure. Shrouded in mystery and intrigue, the Seated Liberty Dollars do not have any official record of ever having been minted, yet somehow 11 traced specimens are believed to exist.

According to Joe Frisard, President of Stanford Coins and Bullion, "The 1870-S Seated Liberty Dollar is a true numismatic rarity. Of the 11 known specimens, only three are in mint condition. The Eliasberg Specimen is graded AU53 by PCGS."

When the Seated Liberty Dollars were made, for coins minted in San Francisco, the Philadelphia mint would prepare the dies and then have them sent to San Francisco to be minted. J.B. Harmstead, the coiner for the San Francisco mint, engraved an "S" on the dies when they arrived, and thus the coins were struck.

Louis Eliasberg acquired the coin from the Will Neil sale from B. Max Mehl in 1947, after Neil had purchased the coin from the Stack's George Hall sale in 1945 for $1,450. Eliasberg later offered his holding in the landmark sale in conjunction with Stack's and Bowers and Merena.

Frisard said that the current market for coins is robust. "Investing in rare coins can bring true value for the client. It is part of an asset diversification strategy in a portfolio, as well as an opportunity to hold a piece of art - and history. The 1870-S Seated Liberty Dollar Eliasberg Specimen is a prime example of this," he said.

ziggy29 · January 30, 2008 3:26AM

Why is CAC buying coins?

ahooka454 · January 30, 2008 3:31AM

does it have a sticker?

Dennis88 · January 30, 2008 3:34AM

<< Why is CAC buying coins? >>

Same question here...Or did John Albanese bought this coin and is it an extra marketing act for the CAC done on purpose (or not) by the writer?

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 3:34AM

I used to own that specific coin - it's a great example of this rare date... third finest known. It was purchased at the Eliasberg sale by Share and was one of the greatest bargains at the sale. I acquired it when I purchased the Share collection intact. The only reason I sold it is because I had the opportunity to acquire the James A Stack specimen and complete my set in unc.

BTW - to my knowledge, there are only 9 known specimens ... not 11. And only one of them is in 'mint condition'.

dbcoin · January 30, 2008 3:35AM

Do you have a picture of that coin? Were there any other great finds in that collection you bought?

ahooka454 · January 30, 2008 3:35AM

TDN, Thanks for sharing that info. 9 wow thats a low figure. you think any more are out there?

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 3:37AM

Coins can indeed be a great investment vehicle. In 10 years, that coin has increased in value by 500%. That's an outstanding return no matter how you look at it.

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 3:38AM

<< TDN, Thanks for sharing that info. 9 wow thats a low figure. you think any more are out there? >>

There is an unconfirmed rumor of an uncirculated piece that surfaced briefly in San Francisco two decades ago. I choose to believe it doesn't exist until it's verified.

mrearlygold · January 30, 2008 3:40AM

<< Coins can indeed be a great investment vehicle. In 10 years, that coin has increased in value by 500%. That's an outstanding return no matter how you look at it. >>

ziggy29 · January 30, 2008 3:41AM

<< There is an unconfirmed rumor of an uncirculated piece that surfaced briefly in San Francisco two decades ago. I choose to believe it doesn't exist until it's verified. >>

Did the 1989 earthquake expose the Mint building's cornerstone?

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 3:46AM

<< Do you have a picture of that coin? Were there any other great finds in that collection you bought? >>

No, sorry don't have a pic. Here are the coins I kept from the Share collection. I paid $5M for the set in order to acquire just these coins!

MS66 Finest Known

MS65 Finest known by 4 grades

MS65 Finest known

MS65 Tied finest known

MS63 Tied finest at PCGS

MS64 at PCGS, MS65 at NGC

MS64 Tied finest known [better than other one]

MS65 Finest known

MS64 Tied finest known

dbcoin · January 30, 2008 3:48AM

wow. Nice set. Makes my collection look like a pile of...

ahooka454 · January 30, 2008 3:53AM

ok TDN, wow. that 1873 cc is amazing, well they all are. Wow what a set thats gotta be in person. I am in awe of you.

antonyfire · January 30, 2008 3:56AM

<< No, sorry don't have a pic. Here are the coins I kept from the Share collection. I paid $5M for the set in order to acquire just these coins!
>>

<picking myself up off the floor>

Wow!!! Fantastic coins!

speety · January 30, 2008 3:56AM

It's about time this coin sold. When the raw one Stacks sold broke $550k, i though that the Eliasberg coin would sell almost imediately.

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 4:02AM

<< ok TDN, wow. that 1873 cc is amazing >>

It's a bit darker in person, but still head and shoulders above the rest. Quite frankly, I just couldn't get this coin out of my mind - it kept haunting me for several months until I decided to do the deal just to shut it up.

SkyMan · January 30, 2008 4:03AM

I started going WOW at the second image of your coins TDN and kept on going that way throughout your set. Them be some sweet babies!

Coxe · January 30, 2008 4:06AM

<< I used to own that specific coin - it's a great example of this rare date... third finest known. It was purchased at the Eliasberg sale by Share and was one of the greatest bargains at the sale. I acquired it when I purchased the Share collection intact. The only reason I sold it is because I had the opportunity to acquire the James A Stack specimen and complete my set in unc.

BTW - to my knowledge, there are only 9 known specimens ... not 11. And only one of them is in 'mint condition'.

>>

What was the price in the Eliasberg sale? I was looking for my catalogue w/ prices realized but can only find the May '96 sale one. I think you got a nice little coin from that one too.

Amigo · January 30, 2008 4:08AM

Wow, TDN. It's info like this that really gets a lot of our hearts pumping.

What year did you purchase the Share Collection ? How much of your purchase price did you recover after flipping the unwanted items ?

Thanks for sharing

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 4:11AM

What was the price in the Eliasberg sale?

IIRC, $264,000.

Coxe · January 30, 2008 4:14AM

<< What was the price in the Eliasberg sale?

IIRC, $264,000. >>

Nice. The annualized profit from 1945 to the Eliasberg sale was 10.7%, not bad for coins but not the finest investment. However, since 1945 to this sale, it has increased by an annual average of 16.7%, much better, with around an annual 14% between the Eliasberg and now (ignoring the month of the year precsion).

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 4:15AM

<< Wow, TDN. It's info like this that really gets a lot of our hearts pumping.

What year did you purchase the Share Collection ? How much of your purchase price did you recover after flipping the unwanted items ?

Thanks for sharing >>

Hmmm. I made the deal the week of the L K Rudolf sale at Stacks. 2003? I think I pretty much broke even selling off the duplicates and unwanted items. Of course, it all depends on how you value unique items. IIRC, we valued the 1873CC at $500k. That could have been high or it could have been low at the time.

ps - here's the full story of the adventure of building this set from my website:

I started on this set in 2003 when I had the opportunity to purchase the Sterling Collection intact. This collection was nearly complete [missing only the 1870-S] and ranged from AU55 to MS64. Because Legend already had a customer [JFS] starting a top grade set of circulation strike coins, I intended to keep it mostly intact and upgrade it only to midrange unc, but alas - circumstances later arose that changed my direction. The Rudolf Collection came up for auction at Stacks a few months later. This was an amazing set with many beautiful coins. At the very same time, the Share Collection was available privately - this set consisted of a complete MS and Proof set, along with Patterns and Gobrechts. The Share Collection was not as high grade as the Rudolf Collection and the coins meshed with the Sterling Collection almost perfectly - keeping half of each set created a mid range uncirculated collection - with the exception of the 1870-S, which consisted of the Eliasberg AU50 specimen. In addition, it contained three coins that really struck my fancy - the finest known gem 1872-CC and 73-CC seated dollars, and a rare upgrade to the Trade Dollar set - the finest known 1878-CC Trade! Because of JFS's focus on the Rudolf Collection, I decided to purchase the Share Collection and to focus on only two specimens at auction [the Norweb 1845 and the Stack 1871-CC] as I knew this customer was going to be quite aggressive. This meant that I passed on a dream coin - the Stack 1870-S [the finest known example and the only unc]. True to his form, JFS bought up many of the choice unc coins from the Rudolf sale, including the 1870-S.... fortunately I was successful on the two I pursued for myself.

Many months followed with a coin here or there from auction - always in mid range uncirculated condition. I passed on several chances to buy gem specimens as I had no intention of starting down that path as long as JFS was intent on buying them all up for his set. After about 9 months, I was a bit frustrated and considered offering many of my expensive coins to JFS as they were head and shoulders above the rest of the set in value and if the set wasn't going to be improved then why have those coins? Fate intervened.

At the 2004 FUN show, Laura just happened to walk past David Akers' table. He had two of his personal seated dollars for sale - magnificent specimens [the MS66 1848 and 1854] at magnificent prices. Normally, she would have told me about them that evening when she updated me on how the show was going, but this time she called me from the table. Now, I had never seen those coins but I knew about them - David Akers' personal set was quite famous to dollar enthusiasts. Boy, was I excited! I told her to get the best price possible but not to leave the table without the coins ... a fortuitous act as unbeknownst to me Oliver Jung had eyes on the 1848 and was on his way back to the table to buy the coin! Not an hour later, the Fairfield 1849 was offered and purchased... another monumental coup! Later that evening, Laura stated JFS was considering selling his set and asked if I was interested. Funny how things worked out - I was ready to sell my key coins a day earlier and in the span of 24 hours not only picked up some once in a lifetime coins, but now was being offered all the coins I was forced to pass on earlier in the year! Amazing.

After purchasing the JFS's set, the Legend Collection was complete in uncirculated condition - the first seated dollar set to ever achieve this milestone. A few magnificent coins have been added in the time being, some from auction and some privately. The end result is a seated dollar set so magnificent in quality that has been entered in the PCGS Set Registry Hall of Fame.

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 4:20AM

<< 

<< What was the price in the Eliasberg sale?

IIRC, $264,000. >>

Nice. The annualized profit from 1945 to the Eliasberg sale was 10.7%, not bad for coins but not the finest investment. However, since 1945 to this sale, it has increased by an annual average of 16.7%, much better, with around an annual 14% between the Eliasberg and now (ignoring the month of the year precsion). >>

My bank did a study on coins prior to granting me a line of credit. Their analysis indicated that the classic rarities increased by an average of appx 11% per year over the decades.... just below the stock market.

dbcoin · January 30, 2008 4:27AM

Your story would make a great article in NN.

What do you think your Unc 1870-S would sell for if this one went for $1.3million? $2million? More?

I can't imagine what the whole set would go for. Thanks for sharing.

droopyd · January 30, 2008 4:31AM

<< BTW - to my knowledge, there are only 9 known specimens ... not 11. And only one of them is in 'mint condition'.

>>

That one must have been cracked out and resubmitted a couple of times -- that'll screw up the pop reports!

droopyd · January 30, 2008 4:33AM

<< I paid $5M for the set in order to acquire just these coins! >>

must be nice....

Coxe · January 30, 2008 5:01AM

<< 

<< 

<< What was the price in the Eliasberg sale?

IIRC, $264,000. >>

Nice. The annualized profit from 1945 to the Eliasberg sale was 10.7%, not bad for coins but not the finest investment. However, since 1945 to this sale, it has increased by an annual average of 16.7%, much better, with around an annual 14% between the Eliasberg and now (ignoring the month of the year precsion). >>

My bank did a study on coins prior to granting me a line of credit. Their analysis indicated that the classic rarities increased by an average of appx 11% per year over the decades.... just below the stock market. >>

Well then, my numbers indicate that the 70-S is indeed a classic rarity. Who woulda thunk it?

(Yes, I am aware of the logical vioation there too.)

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 5:21AM

<< Your story would make a great article in NN.

What do you think your Unc 1870-S would sell for if this one went for $1.3million? $2million? More? >>

More. I recently turned down an offer of $2.5M ... from someone who wanted to resell it so they must have it valued at $2.75M or more.

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 5:23AM

<< 

<< I paid $5M for the set in order to acquire just these coins! >>

must be nice.... >>

I had to borrow from the bank, from my company and take auction advances on the dupes. But in the end it was worth it to acquire many unique finest known coins.

shorecoll · January 30, 2008 5:23AM

I think CAC purchased the 70-S as the first coin for their grading set.

Rarity · January 30, 2008 5:25AM

Beautiful Seated Dollars. Thanks for sharing your images & story.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 30, 2008 5:34AM

The problem with news is that it causes inflation.

Lakesammman · January 30, 2008 5:41AM

One of the highlights of my collecting "career" was sharing some time with TDN and these coins.

Both he and the coins are amazing!

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 5:42AM

<< One of the highlights of my collecting "career" was sharing some time with TDN and these coins.

Both he and the coins are amazing!

>>

You're only saying that cuz I bought the beer.

Lakesammman · January 30, 2008 5:58AM

Hey, that's right. I owe you one.

Sunnywood · January 30, 2008 6:23AM

Quite simply, TDN's MS seated dollars are the single finest complete set of a series that I have ever encountered. I routinely visit and drool all over the images ... in fact I have them all downloaded on my own PC !! And then add to this the absolutely supreme MS trade dollars !!! Incredible !!!

speety · January 30, 2008 6:28AM

TDN, jw what made you decide to sell the proof trade dollars? Is this when you started on the seated dollar set? Or did you sell the proof trade dollars and proof seated together?

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 6:30AM

I sold off all my proof coins because I really like the mint state coins more than the proofs. Plus, at the time I felt the classic rarities were overvalued. Now the pendulum has swung a bit and compared to some of the million dollar+ condition rarities and type, they may be undervalued once again.

speety · January 30, 2008 6:36AM

It's ok, your proof set wasn't too impressive. A 1913 nickel, 1884 and 1885 trade dollars, and a bunch of early 1840s and early 1850s seated dollars... wait that is pretty impressive!

lloydmincy · January 30, 2008 7:42AM

Thanks for sharing TDN. One of the few great collectors, that shows his set to others. In a way, the TDN Smithsonian!!!

malachi555 · January 30, 2008 7:49AM

<< Why is CAC buying coins? >>

My question exactly. Isn't this sort of a conflict of interest? Let's see... their stickers drive up prices, and they control where their stickers go...Anyone else see a problem?

pontiacinf · January 30, 2008 8:51AM

Thanks for sharing Bruce, that was a great read indeed.

Sunshine Rare Coins · January 30, 2008 8:57AM

TDN - when did you sell your proof coins? Were they in auction or privately?

jhdfla · January 30, 2008 9:03AM

<< 

<< Why is CAC buying coins? >>

My question exactly. Isn't this sort of a conflict of interest? Let's see... their stickers drive up prices, and they control where their stickers go...Anyone else see a problem? >>

Not at all. John can deal coins and run CAC if he pleases. Or buy and keep the coin for himself and sell at a later date... but if the coin is already placed, so what? I don't see any conflict at all. After all, DH has his hands in a few areas (so to speak...), right?

John

Edited to add, wonderful coins TDN, thanks for posting the images for us to all enjoy. You are fortunate man indeed.

BECOKA · January 30, 2008 9:25AM

Too drained to say much else. Nice thread.

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 9:29AM

<< TDN - when did you sell your proof coins? Were they in auction or privately? >>

Privately.

seateddime · February 1, 2008 11:59PM

TahoeDale · February 2, 2008 12:47AM

TDN,

I do not think I knew you in 1997, when I attended the E sale in NY.

And I was so new to collecting(again) that when the 1870-S hammered for $240,000, I was more impressed with the really pretty blonde with the winning bidder, than the coin or the price.

But when the audience applauded the final price, i was whistling for the significant other who attended with Share.

My notes in the catalog read " 240,000 !!, and a pretty blonde to boot".

Coxe · February 2, 2008 1:16AM

<< 

<< Why is CAC buying coins? >>

My question exactly. Isn't this sort of a conflict of interest? Let's see... their stickers drive up prices, and they control where their stickers go...Anyone else see a problem? >>

That is precisely the root of my issue with CAC from the start. I do like and respect the people involved with the venture. However, even in the complete absence of corruption, the certification with surely align with their inventories. This is what dealers do, look for coins priced to make money that are solid or better for the grade. Not everyone agrees with the assessment of solid or better or superlative eye appeal, though overwhelming most do, but don't you think (for example) JA would be buying coins that he would sticker? Dealer B might not like a coin JA has chosen and presumably stickered and chooses not to buy it. Conversely, Dealer B very much recognizes superb value and nontypical qualities in another piece, particularly for the grade. JA doesn't see it the same way and doesn't sticker it. Likely in a high percentage of cases, there is little disagreement among knowledgeable peers for exceptional coins. However, the solid for the grade area is open to dissenting opinions. This is already an issue among the TPGs and cannot possibly be avoided by CAC.

If they stuck to exceptional ones, there would probably be no issues moving forward. There is a wide valuation expanse between adjacent grades for many rarities. Say you have a coin that is typically valued at $10K in MS64 and $30K in MS65. You have what some might call "liners", the ones that are always in the upgrade queue and the contributors to the gradeflation issue. A coin that is really an exceptional MS64 might deserve to be valued at $20K. But it is not a strictly trechnical MS65. Well, as it was, it would make MS65 eventually....pretty much guaranteed. Then it is in its $35K tomb. That is the coin that will trade all over the place. Meanwhile the truly great MS65 gems sit in stable collections. One of them appears and it is now the MS66 upgrade candidate. If we must have stickering and if the goal truly is to attenuate gradeflation, identifying exceptional specimens for the assigned grades is the only way to go IMO. Solid for the grades adds no significant value. It is backward looking, penalizing that upgraded MS65 by not giving it a sticker. Maybe it will eventually be damned to a forward valuation adjusted $20K in time. I doubt it and think it is a waste of consideration.

DuPapa · February 2, 2008 1:35AM

I quit.

Rare Liberty Seated Dollar sells for $1.3million

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