Speaking of Toning.............

relicsncoins · January 28, 2008 4:19AM

Why is it that you find nice crescent rainbow toned Morgans, but not Peace Dollars? I don't think I've ever seen a crescent toned Peace Dollar.

Maybe it's because the demand and collector base for rainbow toned Morgans is higher.

JJ

pharmer · January 28, 2008 4:21AM

<< Why is it that you find nice crescent rainbow toned Morgans, but not Peace Dollars? I don't think I've ever seen a crescent toned Peace Dollar.

Maybe it's because the demand and collector base for rainbow toned Morgans is higher.

JJ >>

Yeah, that's gotta be it. Well thought out!

relicsncoins · January 28, 2008 4:26AM

<< 

<< Why is it that you find nice crescent rainbow toned Morgans, but not Peace Dollars? I don't think I've ever seen a crescent toned Peace Dollar.

Maybe it's because the demand and collector base for rainbow toned Morgans is higher.

JJ >>

Yeah, that's gotta be it. Well thought out! >>

Why thank you my good sir.

JJ

SeattleSlammer · January 28, 2008 4:27AM

Another reason is that Peace dollars only date back to 1921 and so have had far less time to develop all sorts of toning, including the crescent type that results when one coin rests upon another for a long period of time.

relicsncoins · January 28, 2008 4:34AM

<< Another reason is that Peace dollars only date back to 1921 and so have had far less time to develop all sorts of toning, including the crescent type that results when one coin rests upon another for a long period of time. >>

I don't think it's the time, as there are plenty of rainbow toned coins from 50's mint sets. I would be more inclined to think that maybe the storage methods had changed or the composition of the mint bags had changed etc.

JJ

GoldenEyeNumismatics · January 28, 2008 4:38AM

<< Another reason is that Peace dollars only date back to 1921 and so have had far less time to develop all sorts of toning, including the crescent type that results when one coin rests upon another for a long period of time. >>

Not true. Vibrant bag toning really only needs a few years in an optimal environment.

The answer to the OP lies in the mint's procedures. By 1921, the Mint had switched over to washing their planchets (before striking) in a slightly acidic bath, which (I'm not quite sure how this works) created a barrier for toning. This also explains why you don't see many bag toned 1921 Morgans.

SeattleSlammer · January 28, 2008 4:40AM

Geez guys, yes it IS true to a degree. I'm not trying to say it's the ONLY reason, but age certainly contributes to the overall lack of toning on Peace dollars as compared to Morgans. Sure, things like different storage conditions also play a role. There are many factors at play.

jmj3esq · January 28, 2008 4:52AM

Here is one I own. Too bad it looks like it was drug down the street. I think it is MS but no better than MS60. It would probably bag do to all the scratches.

Sunnywood · January 28, 2008 6:19AM

The manufacturing processes were different, from the alloy strip rolling to the planchet preparation. The canvas used for Mint bags was different. And in addition, you're looking at several decades of additional storage.

As to the comment that the age doesn't matter, I must respectfully disagree. While it is indeed possible to create colorful toning on an accelerated basis, the kind of banded rainbow toning that is almost unique to Morgans needs to develop very very slowly. The reasons for this pertain to the ultra-fine gradations of thickness necessary in the toning layer to achieve the banded color separations.

The history of Morgans is unique among silver type, with massive numbers having been produced and immediately thrown into storage vaults. There were so many bags stored in bank vaults that a new storage facility had to be built just to hold them. Most of those that were not melted under the authority of the Pittman Act sat for decades longer until being paid out or distributed.

It is for this reason that toned Morgans offer a unique opportunity for spectacular colors. Add to that the large numbers of extant Morgans, the popularity of the series, the affordability of lower grade common date specimens, and you get a recipe for high demand. But the demand for toning is the result of these factors. It is simply false and incorrect to assert that rainbow-toned Morgans are artificially manufactured to meet collector demand. Toning like this is unique to Morgans, and is the basis for the popularity of toned Morgans:

best,
Sunnywood

jmj3esq · January 30, 2008 12:57PM

Whats up, I post a crescent toned Peace Dollar and the thread dies? I know its a bad date and low grade, but it is what the OP was asking for. Or maybe, he didnt want to see one.

ChuckC · January 30, 2008 1:04PM

I remember from some earlier threads that peace dollars used a new type of planchet that were less "tone friendly". Something about the surfaces or rinse?

nutz4coinz · January 30, 2008 1:09PM

So, could the problem with the milky areas on Peace dollars be considered parallel to the problems with the ASE's? It appears it COULD be, as we havent seen that milky pattern (or milk spots) since the Peace dollar....and there are TONS of nice Peace dollars that DO have those milky areas (or am I just way off base, here, especially since its my first post?). Could it be that the U.S. Mint should go back to the original way of handling silver dollar planchets, such as the way Morgans were handled? We havent seen these milky spots we see on the ASE since Peace dollars. The ASE is the first dollar sized silver planchet since the Peace dollar. I understand the composition is slightly different, but.........

BAJJERFAN · January 30, 2008 1:16PM

DJCoinz · January 30, 2008 1:21PM

<< So, could the problem with the milky areas on Peace dollars be considered parallel to the problems with the ASE's? It appears it COULD be, as we havent seen that milky pattern (or milk spots) since the Peace dollar....and there are TONS of nice Peace dollars that DO have those milky areas (or am I just way off base, here, especially since its my first post?). Could it be that the U.S. Mint should go back to the original way of handling silver dollar planchets, such as the way Morgans were handled? We havent seen these milky spots we see on the ASE since Peace dollars. The ASE is the first dollar sized silver planchet since the Peace dollar. I understand the composition is slightly different, but......... >>

GoldenEyeNumismatics · January 30, 2008 1:23PM

<< 
As to the comment that the age doesn't matter, I must respectfully disagree. While it is indeed possible to create colorful toning on an accelerated basis, the kind of banded rainbow toning that is almost unique to Morgans needs to develop very very slowly. The reasons for this pertain to the ultra-fine gradations of thickness necessary in the toning layer to achieve the banded color separations.

best,
Sunnywood >>

Perhaps it might make an extremely small difference with Peace Dollars, but I believe the extra decades of storage that Morgans received makes such a little difference that it's almost null. The vastly prodominant factors lie in the changes of Mint processes.

Even Peace Dollar bags that show up today, at least 73 years after the last coins rolled off the presses, bear an extremely minute quantity of toned pieces, and when they are toned, it's rarely ever the pretty rainbow often encountered with Morgans.

Moki · January 30, 2008 1:39PM

I wonder if minute differences in the small percentage of non-silver components which might vary from the later manufacturered batches of silver could account for some of the less spectacular toning.

morgannut2 · January 30, 2008 8:25PM

All these replies have validity IMHO. Weighing the most important

factors is speculative IMHO.

Morgan Dollors blanks were indeed acid washed and poorly rinced according to several researchers.

So I'd suggest these acid reactants is one thing separatimg Morgan from Peace/1921 Morgan

Dollars.

I'm tired of arguing with chemists/phycists but the fact is it does NOT (experimentally)

take long for Malicite--"Morgan Green" (copper sulfur carbonate) or Azurite--"Morgan deep azure blue"

to form. But, to get the subtle variation in rainbow toning requires horizontal fluid flow

of at least moist air over a significant time period to have a Morgan's subtle incuse color variations..

I find interesting the toned Peace Dollar here, but just don't have a good idea how the toning

occurs in these rare cases.

ModernDollarNut · January 30, 2008 9:49PM

<< Here is one I own. Too bad it looks like it was drug down the street. I think it is MS but no better than MS60. It would probably bag do to all the scratches.

>>

Looks like that die wasn't going to last too much longer - is there a Peace Dollar "necklace" VAM? Rob

Sunnywood · January 30, 2008 10:47PM

GoldenEye, what I was really responding to was the statement that "vibrant bag toning really only needs a few years in an optimal environment."

The type of banded rainbow toning exhibited in the Morgan images that I posted above requires many years of extremely slow film formation. While I am sure it would in theory be possible to construct a scenario in which this process could be replicated on an accelerated basis, the broad differentiated bands typically seen on Morgans are not encountered on coins whose lives in storage have been appreciably shorter.

Of course we do know that other types of vibrant toning can occur more rapidly. But the broad separated bands require an environment with some sulfur (the canvas), controlled humidity, and extremely low circulatory movement in the ambient air. For this, decades of undisturbed storage in canvas bags in a bank vault is ideal. I will say it is necessary but not sufficient - for as you point out, peace dollars don't seem to have the rainbow toning even after similar decades of storage. I don't dispute that at all. But I would disagree that the banded rainbow toning seen on Morgans might form in "a few years."

As far as I know, banded rainbow toning - the type with vibrant, broad, separated color bands - is unique to Morgans.
But feel free to prive me wrong !!! I would love to see images of any other type coins with similar toning !!!

Best,
Sunnywood

tradedollarnut · January 30, 2008 11:27PM

Here is one I own. Too bad it looks like it was drug down the street. I think it is MS but no better than MS60. It would probably bag do to all the scratches.

Don't let the scratches bother you too much - it would bag due to the 'color' as well.

oldcameoproofsguy · January 30, 2008 11:40PM

I guess you just have to search for a while to find one.

BTW, both are in NGC MS64 holders, however, they would probably both BB today.

DJCoinz · January 31, 2008 12:59PM

Here's one I really really like:

It's an NGC 64.

Speaking of Toning.............

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