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L I B E R T Y?? Male or Female??
19Lyds
Posts: 26,503 ✭✭✭✭
While looking at this thread I just realized that Liberty on the Mercury Dime is depicted as a man! I guess I always knew this but then this got me wondering?
I thought this to be rather unusual in that I've always pictured (and read) Ms. Liberty such as the Draped Bust halves, the Seated Liberty and Standing Liberty Quarters.
What other US Coinage besides the Mercury dime and Barbers coins (Halves, Quarters, dimes) depicted Liberty as a man?
edited to augment the thread title.
I thought this to be rather unusual in that I've always pictured (and read) Ms. Liberty such as the Draped Bust halves, the Seated Liberty and Standing Liberty Quarters.
What other US Coinage besides the Mercury dime and Barbers coins (Halves, Quarters, dimes) depicted Liberty as a man?
edited to augment the thread title.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
The name is LEE!
The name is LEE!
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Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>That's a dude? >>
Looks like one to me and the Barber coins are dude's as well.
The Morgan is a little iffy............
and I ain't smokin nuthin!
The name is LEE!
Mercury dimes
"Although this coin is commonly called the mercury dime, the main device is in fact a representation of Liberty. The wings crowning HER cap are intended to symbolize liberty of thought."
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
The "Mercury" is just a misnomer that stuck, over time. It's easier to call them "Mercury dimes" than "Winged Liberty dimes".
Mercury, the Roman god (whose Greek name was Hermes) WAS male, but he is more known for having wings on his sandals. He did sport a winged cap, too, in some statues and pictures, though, so the mistaken identity is easily understandable.
Hermes/Mercury was the god of thieves, interestingly enough, but was also the messenger of the gods, which is why he had the wings.
(Sort of Olympian air mail, I guess.)
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
19lyds, got any to share???
Come to think of it, Miss Liberty on the Morgan dollars had taken some testosterone shots. Some of those quasi-neoclassical Liberties were a rather androgynous lot.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Well, OK, I still think some of the Matron Heads were a little more feminine than Barber's Liberty.
Lady Liberty was kind of pretty until 1807, but she didn't age well. She hung onto a little beauty with some of the larger Seated coins, but it was mostly downhill for her from there, until Teddy Roosevelt and Saint-Gaudens and MacNeil and Weinman came along in the early 20th century for a much needed makeover.
(Weinman's "Mercury" lookalike Liberty might be somewhat androgynous, but she's sufficiently ladylike on the Walking Liberty halves.)
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
The thick necked Libertys produced by Barber and Morgan were consistent with Classical and French art ideals of the day. The same applies to the “Grecian profile” vs the more natural profile of the 1921 Peace dollar.
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>Just look at the Shriver coin and the similarity to Keith Moon. It haunts me. >>
<< <i>What are you smoking? >>
Must be something gooooooood!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
even worse. Was this an attempt to belittle
the women???
The Mercury dime looks like a guy along with his Barber cousins. The Morgan, as stated earlier, is a little iffy but definitely more male than female. On US Coinage, women depicted as Liberty usually showed more bust below the neck along with longer hair or draping garments yet the male coins show only from the neck on up with much shorter locks.
As for the quote from the Redbook "The wings crowning HER cap are intended to symbolize liberty of thought.", aren't these the same guys that list a Silver Presidential Dollar? Given the fact that they are capable of making judgemental errors, I wouldn't put a lot of creedance on the HER statement.
I've never, ever considered that the Mercury and Barber coins were anything other than Men. Must be something in my genetic makeup.
Does anybody have any thoughts on WHY LIBERTY is usually depicted as feminine? Certainly the early coinage always depicted Liberty as a female but why a feminine form instead of a masculine form?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Does anybody have any thoughts on WHY LIBERTY is usually depicted as feminine? Certainly the early coinage always depicted Liberty as a female but why a feminine form instead of a masculine form? >>
My guess would be because of the statue of liberty, now why THAT is feminine, is beyond me....
<< <i>The Eunice Kennedy Shriver Medal was
even worse. Was this an attempt to belittle
the women???
That's the girl from The Ring, isn't it?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
The politically correct statement is: She is a handsome woman.
Joe.
The Statue of Liberty's classical appearance (Roman stola, sandals, facial expression) derives from Libertas, ancient Rome's goddess of freedom from slavery, oppression, and tyranny.
<< <i>That's the girl from The Ring, isn't it? >>
Later, Paul
Later, Paul.
Mintage of the dime was commissioned by the Coinage Act of 1792, and production began in 1796. A feminine head representing Liberty was used on the front of the coin, and an eagle was used on the back. The front and back of the dime used these motifs for three different designs through 1837. From 1837 to 1891, "Seated Liberty" dimes were issued, which featured Liberty seated next to a shield. In 1892, a feminine head of Liberty returned to the dime, and it was known as a "Barber dime" (named for coin designer Charles E. Barber). The backs of both of the latter two designs featured the words "ONE DIME" enclosed in various wreaths. In 1916, the head of a winged-capped Liberty was put on the dime and is commonly known by the misnomer of "Mercury dime"; the back featured a fasces. The most recent design change was in 1946.
From that, the Early Dime Liberty was female; Seated Libertys were male; Liberty on the Barber resumed as female. "Mercury" dimes were not defined as male or female here... from past history one could assume it's female, but not with certainty.
Other research I did never mentioned gender, or like the Redbook, called them female. I don't think we have enough sources to be 100% sure at this point in the discussion.
After all this, all I can say with absolute certainty is, "DAYAM that Shriver coin is UGLY!!!!!!!!!"
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Link PCGS Library
Is this a man or a woman on this coin?
And post the results here.
Simple enough?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>L I B E R T Y?? Male or Female?? >>
Well....one things for certain ...the Standing Liberty Quarter is female.....
<< <i>Ok, you tell me. Link >>
Put up a profile and not a full frontal view. Lets compare apples to apples.
<< <i>Well....one things for certain ...the Standing Liberty Quarter is female.........she was told to cover up.....!!! >>
With the SLQ, I just do not understand what the sculptor or the approval committee was thinking?
The name is LEE!
This would be the 1792 silver center cent patterns by Henry Voigt.
The obverse die was never used for the half cents in the summer of 1792. Apparently, there was never a completed reverse die, hence the left over obverse die which was used that Decemeber.
That particular die was engraved, probably by John Harper, to depict Christopher Columbus. This was meant to honor the Tercentenary of his 1492 voyage of discovery.
renditions of liberty.
i guess the folks who designed the coins preferred their women "manly" looking.
when they nick named it the "school girl dollar".
Sorry to say, but the source you used is not completely correct. See Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 for a fuller explaination. (You'll also find out about the SL quarter and can then dispel the silliness of the invented old stories.)
Re: In doing considerable research with original US Mint Bureau documents, I've never seen any reference to Liberty as anything other than female. This includes mint officials comments and artists comments. The figure we commonly call Liberty was also identified as Columbia, America, Nation, Freedom and others - all female. In classical-inspired art, the clothing of male and female figures differs, and is not interchangeable between the sexes. (Ancient coinage preserves these distinctions – See Sear, Klawans, Head, Viagi, BMC/Mattingly, etc.)
Naturally, anyone my call the portraits on coins whatever they wish. The above simply reinforces what was intended, not what one thinks they see.
The thing about the Winged Liberty Head ("Mercury") dime portrait that I aways thought to be odd was the extremely protruding man-like chin.
When I designed my new Winged Liberty Head 2008 Amero pattern, I made sure that "UNA" didn't look like a male:
Just one of several sources. With you're detailed knowledge gained from research you might want to expand on the common "rumor" of the suspected trist involved here also?
From www.uspatterns.com:
The following article was originally published in a Bowers and Merena Rare Coin Review and is also available on their website. It is reproduced here courtesy of Tom LaMarre and Bowers and Merena.
Reproduction without the permission of the author and Bowers and Merena is prohibited.
The New York Mail and Express claimed that her face was "known to more people than that of any other woman of the American continent." Many were the actresses and socialites who coveted the honor. But in her later years Anna W. Williams dismissed the matter as "an incident of my youth."
Had she been paid on a royalty basis for the use of her portrait, Williams would have been the wealthiest woman in America. "Every man, woman or child who has a silver dollar carries the handsome profile of the Philadelphia schoolteacher, Miss Anna W. Williams," the Mail and Express said. "Her classic features have been stamped upon millions of the silver disks."
It all began with the passage of the notorious Bland-Allison Act of February 22, 1878, which authorized the secretary of the Treasury to purchase two to four million dollars worth of silver each month to be coined into silver dollars. Not since 1873 had silver dollars been minted for domestic use, and even then the Seated Liberty design was considered outmoded. Treasury officials decided that a fresh, vibrant design was needed for the new silver dollar as the country entered the most dynamic period in its history.
Certainly there was no shortage of sources of inspiration. The official Illustrated Catalogue of the Centennial Exhibition, Philadelphia, 1876, has a frontispiece showing Columbia in a liberty cap giving wreaths to three other female figures representing Europe; Asia, and Africa, while with her other hand she holds an American flag.
Frank Leslie's Historical Register of the United States Centennial Exposition, 1876, opening with a chromolithograph of America clad in the stars and stripes, an elaborate helmet on her head, her costume covered with jewels.
It is entirely possible that George T. Morgan saw these images. In the early part of 1876 the Treasury Department secured, through communication with the Royal Mint of London, the services of the clever young designer and engraver. Upon his arrival in the United States, Morgan was assigned to the Philadelphia Mint, where in 1877 he created several varieties of pattern half dollars. His first major task was to prepare designs for a new silver dollar, which seemed likely to win authorization as the silver interests lobbied Washington for favorable legislation.
After intensive labor, Morgan completed the design for the reverse side of the coin. The elements themselves, an eagle and wreath, had been used on his pattern half dollars of the previous year. As executed by Morgan, they displayed a decidedly different interpretation than previous U.S. coins. The slender eagle with raised wings may have lacked anatomical perfection, but it did embody the concept of freedom without wearing the ridiculous shield seen on the birds engraved for other coins.
Morgan began with the reverse side of the coin out of necessity. Treasury officials wanted the designs readied as quickly as possible, and Morgan was not certain what he wanted to engrave for the obverse side. Perhaps he, too, had tired of the Seated liberty design, derived from the symbolic figure of Britannia with which he was so familiar. After due consideration, he decided to portray liberty as a goddess. Too much of a realist to be satisfied with a mere product of fancy, he determined the head should be a representation of a real American girl. Selected was one of his own designs from an 1877 pattern half dollar. Therein lies a story. . .
Upon his arrival in America in 1876, Morgan found a sympathetic friend in famous painter Thomas Eakins, who shared his penchant for realism. Eakins, a friend of the Henry Williams family of Philadelphia, introduced Morgan to Miss Anna Willess Williams, Henry's daughter. Morgan was immediately impressed with her face and studied it carefully.
Anna herself was an art student and understood the importance of finding a suitable model. After much persuasion by Eakins and her other friends, and the promise that her role as a model for a coinage design would be kept secret, she consented to serve as Morgan's model. Altogether there were five sittings at Eakins' home in November 1876.
Morgan was delighted with his model and said that her profile was the most nearly perfect he had seen in England or America. Williams' complexion was fair, her eyes blue, her nose Grecian and her hair, said to be her "crowning glory," was of golden color, abundant in quantity and light of texture. It was worn in a becoming coil, perhaps resembling Morgan's design for one type of the $4 gold piece, or "Stella."
Morgan later decided to add a cap as ornamentation befitting the "goddess" of Liberty. This design, used on pattern 1877 half dollars, was accepted for production of silver dollars, and in 1878 the Philadelphia, San Francisco, and Carson City mints turned out a total of more than 12 million silver dollars.
Williams' role as the model for the design remained a secret only until the summer of 1879, when a Philadelphia reporter revealed that she was in fact the "Silver Dollar Girl." The colorful name struck a responsive chord in the public. Williams was besieged with thousands of letters and visitors, which troubled her greatly. There were even offers of lucrative stage engagements, but Anna rejected them in favor of a teaching position at the House of Refuge. In 1891 she accepted a $60-a-month job as teacher of kindergarten philosophy at the Girls' Normal School.
Although the glare of publicity slowly faded, the Ladies' Home Journal still considered Williams a fascinating subject when it published her photograph in 1892. Four years later, the announcement that the goddess of Liberty was about to be married brought Williams into the limelight again.
"Miss Williams is a decidedly modest young woman," the New York Mail and Express reported. "She resides on Spring Garden Street, not far from the school in which for years she has been employed as an instructor in philosophy and methods in the kindergarten department. She is slightly below the average height, is rather plump, and is fair. She carries her figure with a stateliness rarely seen, and, the pose of the head is exactly as seen on the silver dollar. The features of Miss Williams are reproduced as faithfully as in a good photograph."
Maybe it was the notoriety that caused the engagement to be broken. At any rate, the marriage never took place and Williams became increasingly reluctant to tell the story of how she came to be the model for the silver dollar. She much preferred to talk about her work as supervisor of Philadelphia's kindergarten schools.
Williams had retired from the school system when in December 1925 she sustained a fall and was confined to bed. On April 17, 1926, a stroke claimed the life of the famous "Silver Dollar Girl." The passing of Williams was noted by The Numismatist, which reported in May 1926:
"An obituary told of a Philadelphia lady whose portrait had been reproduced hundreds of millions of times: 'Miss Anna W. Williams, of Philadelphia, a retired public school teacher, whose profile was used in preparing the design of the standard silver dollar in 1878, died in her native city on April 17. Death was due to apoplexy, induced by a fall she sustained last December and she had been confined to her bed since.
"'The statement has been frequently made that the head on the standard silver dollar was that of Miss Williams. This statement is not strictly true. Miss Williams possessed a Grecian profile, which was considered almost ideal for a typical head of Liberty, and chiefly on that account she consented to pose for the engraver while preparing the design. This is borne out by the fact that the entire head is much more mature in appearance than would be expected in a girl 18 years old. That was her age at the time she posed. . .
"'Miss Williams was born in Philadelphia. Her mother was a Southerner, the daughter of Dr. Arthur N. Willess of Maryland. His daughter married Henry Williams of Philadelphia, and went with him to that city.'"
The statement below was found in a letter in the Morgan estate offered as lot 1130 in the May 10-11, 2002 Craig A. Whitford Numismatic Auction sale which disputes the long held belief about Anna Williams. The following is quoted from that letter.
"Father always said no matter how many models posed for him, that he never bid any & that he just made up the obverse himself..."
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<< <i>Sorry guys! I just ain't buying it!
The Mercury dime looks like a guy along with his Barber cousins. The Morgan, as stated earlier, is a little iffy but definitely more male than female. On US Coinage, women depicted as Liberty usually showed more bust below the neck along with longer hair or draping garments yet the male coins show only from the neck on up with much shorter locks.
As for the quote from the Redbook "The wings crowning HER cap are intended to symbolize liberty of thought.", aren't these the same guys that list a Silver Presidential Dollar? Given the fact that they are capable of making judgemental errors, I wouldn't put a lot of creedance on the HER statement.
I've never, ever considered that the Mercury and Barber coins were anything other than Men. Must be something in my genetic makeup.
Does anybody have any thoughts on WHY LIBERTY is usually depicted as feminine? Certainly the early coinage always depicted Liberty as a female but why a feminine form instead of a masculine form? >>
gonna hafta do an autopsy
Being an art major in college leads me to think male all the way. The Mercury dime was always male to me too.
And why can't Liberty be male? Men are historically the sex that have lost their lives protecting our liberty. I find it more than fitting for the two coins in question to be male.
The name is LEE!
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>As to the Barber coins, they are supposedly female, too, but they sure are mannish-looking, ain't they?
Come to think of it, Miss Liberty on the Morgan dollars had taken some testosterone shots. Some of those quasi-neoclassical Liberties were a rather androgynous lot. >>
I agree with you on that LordMarcovan... I have often felt that many of the depictions of "Miss Liberty" look a bit masculine... like cherubs.
Not quite sure what you mean....the SL quarter design change in 1917, or?
More than any man can portray.
Even though the Barber series is brutal
I'm surprised nobody has posted this image yet:… [Anna Williams.]
Yeah, me too! Isn’t that Barry Bonds before steroids??
Wait until next summer and you can read the whole story. (Hint: the watercolor shown in a previous post is of an imaginary person.)
there's a really good parable that uses this dualism effectively, it's found in the Bible on page one and is known to us all as the story of creation and Adam and Eve. that's where we start to get it wrong!!!! it isn't a story about two distinct people at all, it's the explanation of the two distinct halves of the human personality, the intellect and the soul. go read the story and consider this proposition, you may read it correctly for the first time. i can assure you, the story isn't intended to be about the Creation of Mankind but that's just my studied opinion.