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Not genuine?
RobertS
Posts: 487 ✭✭
I purchased a 1907 liberty as part of a collection that a friend had since 1981 or 1982. I sent it to be graded and it came back as not genuine. The coin was listed as 1907 s when he bought it but it looked as a 1907 d so when I submitted I stated it was a 1907d. My question is, not genuine because it is not a 1907d and it could be an s or not genuine because it is a fake coin?
Thanks for advise on this case.
Thanks for advise on this case.
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<< <i>I purchased a 1907 liberty as part of a collection that a friend had since 1981 or 1982. I sent it to be graded and it came back as not genuine. The coin was listed as 1907 s when he bought it but it looked as a 1907 d so when I submitted I stated it was a 1907d. My question is, not genuine because it is not a 1907d and it could be an s or not genuine because it is a fake coin?
Thanks for advise on this case. >>
NG because it is fake. If it was just a MM error on your part they would have just correected it for you.
--Thomas Jefferson
that seems to be what you bought
<< <i>They will correct the number if you made a mistake on the submission form. It is fake. >>
Does this mean the coin is worthless or it has any gold value at least?
<< <i>
<< <i>They will correct the number if you made a mistake on the submission form. It is fake. >>
Does this mean the coin is worthless or it has any gold value at least? >>
Assuming that it is gold, it is worth a bit more than gold value. Some people collect counterfeit gold coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>They will correct the number if you made a mistake on the submission form. It is fake. >>
Does this mean the coin is worthless or it has any gold value at least? >>
It is almost certainly made of gold, though without assay it will be difficult to tell what the fineness is.
--Thomas Jefferson
<< <i>I purchased a 1907 liberty >>
1907 Liberty what?
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
1907 liberty
1907 liberty
It's not gonna be worthless, though. You've got gold value, there, at least, and as previously mentioned, some folks collect counterfeit gold.
PS- I don't see any mintmark at all on that piece.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>Yep, the strike looks awfully soft for a genuine piece, and the lettering is a little "off" somehow- can't quite put my finger on exactly what makes it ring my alarm bells, but it would've raised my suspicions, too. It's a decent-quality counterfeit, though. If it's contemporary, it would've probably passed in commerce. However, I suspect it was made later than that, and probably overseas.
It's not gonna be worthless, though. You've got gold value, there, at least, and as previously mentioned, some folks collect counterfeit gold.
PS- I don't see any mintmark at all on that piece. >>
Shute you are correct the mint mark was on my 5 gold pice 1903 I thought it was a d but turned out to be an S, sorry for the confusion. So if I drop this coin on ebay should I simply post it as a conterfit gold 1907 coin? They weight 1/2 ounce or one ounce?
Sorry I am a newbie and just learning so I appreciate any help I can get!
<< <i>Well he is a friend, I am certain he was unaware of the legitimacy of the coin. I could say something but I am doing ok on some of the coins I got from him, as long as everithing is at least a wash; I do not think I want him to make up for something he was unaware off. >>
Every friendship is different. I too agree that he didn't know it was not genuine escpecially if he knew you were submitting it. If I sold a coin to a friend I would want to know that it was not genuine. it can be awkward mentioning it without making it sound like you felt gyped but perhaps you should mention that PCGS didn't like the coin. Actually, he'll probably ask you about the grades, no?
Best of luck, Jerry
<< <i>So if I drop this coin on ebay should I simply post it as a conterfit gold 1907 coin? They weight 1/2 ounce or one ounce? >>
There is almost (but not quite) an ounce of gold in a real $20 gold piece. (.9675 oz., I believe). However, there is no telling what the bullion content of a fake one is. Naturally, the fakes vary. That one does look like a nice quality fake with some real gold content.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
eBay will pull a counterfeit if they think it is - so auction probably may not last to completion
(especially if you say it is)
is there anyplace by you that buys silver/gold bullion?
<< <i>it looks like they could have gotten you for cleaning on obverse also
eBay will pull a counterfeit if they think it is - so auction probably may not last to completion
(especially if you say it is)
is there anyplace by you that buys silver/gold bullion? >>
Not sure, I will have to look. I am so disappointed, I really liked the coin
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Ever hear the old saying, "if you have a friend that's dear and true, screw him before he screws you"?
Ray
I'd buy it if I had the money...
The Long Beach Coin Expo is next month, you may want to bring that fake piece there if you're intrested in selling it. There may be dealers intrested in acquiring some fakes for their display.
<< <i>I got my coins back from PCGS, I noticed that this $20 dollar piece is all scratched up, it was not prior to sending to PCGS. Do they do this purposely because it is a counterfeit and they do not want me reselling? although I was not going to resell as a real coin it really bothers me that they would take it upon themselves to destroy my coin. It was a nice looking coin and I will more than likely sell it to be melted, the violation of my coin bothers me. >>
Are you serious? And above you say you would like to find the dealer that sold this to your friend 30 years ago, ostensibly to be made whole, but you say nothing about being made whole by your friend who just sold it to you.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>I got my coins back from PCGS, I noticed that this $20 dollar piece is all scratched up, it was not prior to sending to PCGS. Do they do this purposely because it is a counterfeit and they do not want me reselling? although I was not going to resell as a real coin it really bothers me that they would take it upon themselves to destroy my coin. It was a nice looking coin and I will more than likely sell it to be melted, the violation of my coin bothers me. >>
Are you serious? And above you say you would like to find the dealer that sold this to your friend 30 years ago, ostensibly to be made whole, but you say nothing about being made whole by your friend who just sold it to you. >>
To his credit, my friend is willing to buy it back, he got taken. Why should I be mad at him? He had this coin for almost 30 years! The dealer that swindled him on the other had deserves to be castrated, as I would assume he knew it was counterfeit. Trust and believe i would the just the guy to cut them little nads off. However at this point being mad at my friend is not helping neither him, nor me and I have no interest on the dealer either at this point. If I can get gold value I will be happy, if not returning to my friend is the next option.
Now back on subject, does PCGs makes a habit of damaging counterfeits?:
the giveaway to me is the reverse 'R' in America - there is a blup there that can not exist except as a
strike-through that would not happen there
Be back in five with a pic.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I got my coins back from PCGS, I noticed that this $20 dollar piece is all scratched up, it was not prior to sending to PCGS. Do they do this purposely because it is a counterfeit and they do not want me reselling? although I was not going to resell as a real coin it really bothers me that they would take it upon themselves to destroy my coin. It was a nice looking coin and I will more than likely sell it to be melted, the violation of my coin bothers me. >>
Are you serious? And above you say you would like to find the dealer that sold this to your friend 30 years ago, ostensibly to be made whole, but you say nothing about being made whole by your friend who just sold it to you. >>
To his credit, my friend is willing to buy it back, he got taken. Why should I be mad at him? He had this coin for almost 39 years! The dealer that swindled him on the other had deserves to be castrated, as I would assume he knew it was counterfeit. Trust and believe i would the just the guy to cut them little nads off.
Now back on subject, does PCGs makes a habit of damaging counterfeits?: >>
Now it's 39 years? Your story's losing it's narrative. Never said mad, that's your word, but you started this thread and obviously want to be made whole, but you are blaming everyone but the person who sold it to you. Now you're making very serious accusations against PCGS. Allegations that you may want to edit.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I got my coins back from PCGS, I noticed that this $20 dollar piece is all scratched up, it was not prior to sending to PCGS. Do they do this purposely because it is a counterfeit and they do not want me reselling? although I was not going to resell as a real coin it really bothers me that they would take it upon themselves to destroy my coin. It was a nice looking coin and I will more than likely sell it to be melted, the violation of my coin bothers me. >>
Are you serious? And above you say you would like to find the dealer that sold this to your friend 30 years ago, ostensibly to be made whole, but you say nothing about being made whole by your friend who just sold it to you. >>
To his credit, my friend is willing to buy it back, he got taken. Why should I be mad at him? He had this coin for almost 39 years! The dealer that swindled him on the other had deserves to be castrated, as I would assume he knew it was counterfeit. Trust and believe i would the just the guy to cut them little nads off.
Now back on subject, does PCGs makes a habit of damaging counterfeits?: >>
Now it's 39 years? Your story's losing it's narrative. Never said mad, that's your word, but you started this thread and obviously want to be made whole, but you are blaming everyone but the person who sold it to you. Now you're making very serious accusations against PCGS. Allegations that you may want to edit. >>
I edited the post after making it to correct it, I would not want to be accused of making stories up, we all know how conspiracy theorist like to set their mind loose on minor details. I think that my previous post holds true to my original but if you need me to edit something else, please let me know.
Now with regards to my prior PCGS accusation, I took a closer look at the picture posted prior on this forum and upon closer examination; I can see the lines I was talking about and accused PCGS of doing. PCGS is vindicated and I apologize for any damage my statement my have caused to the company. Truth be told I never had the coin out of the plastic and did not notice all the hairlines on it, since I am new to the hobby when I got my naked coin back I noticed the scuff mark like hairlines and I assumed that PCGS did that to counterfeits so other people do did not get burned by the same coin.
<< <i>no PCGS didn't damage your coin - you are mistaken
the giveaway to me is the reverse 'R' in America - there is a blup there that can not exist except as a
strike-through that would not happen there >>
The things a trained eye can see, you are so correct! I am certainly learning allot from this experience, thanks for the feedback and help. The sad part is that even if it would have been the real deal, with all those marks this coin would have never graded anything of significance due to the marks I overlooked
some inexperienced coin collectors rub or true to make the coins 'shiner'
they use pencil erasers, sandpaper, steel wool, ...
you got lucky in a way - PCGS bodybags a coin with problems
and doesn't list all the problems, just the first most obvious to the grader
in this case - not genuine -
the bad examples are -> a cleand 1916-D Mercury dime cleaned with added mintmark
it is easier to see cleaned than added mintmark - they would not have caught it as easy
jpo1965 -
I am pretty sure that is a die-struck copy
3 dies - obverse - reverse - collar with reeded ridges (if reeded)
the 3rd die is usually difficult to make well
if it was poured, there would be a die crack all the way around as well as an area where the
sprue came out (hole that material poured in through)
<< <i>some inexperienced coin collectors rub or true to make the coins 'shiner'
they use pencil erasers, sandpaper, steel wool, .. >>
Counterfeit coins are frequently harshly cleaned in an effort to disguise their false orgins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
In addition to the rim; can the die tooling marks on the OBV above the hair be used as a diagnostic of this particular type of counterfeit?
edit: Look at the big pic at S8
<< <i>A question for those that know...
In addition to the rim; can the die tooling marks on the OBV above the hair be used as a diagnostic of this particular type of counterfeit?
edit: Look at the big pic at S8 >>
Yes. Die tooling is frequently a marker for counterfeit coins. When the counterfeiter makes a transfer die he usually tries to correct any blemishes by tooling them off the die and winds up creating another blemish.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire