A Message from the President - Half Grade System

JoeOrlando · January 17, 2008 4:55AM

Hello All,

First, I want to make sure that the board members know that I am reading these posts and taking in all of the comments - serious or otherwise. I also want to address some things.

1) We put a lot of thought into this decision and realized it would create an emotional reaction from some hobbyists. It is a major change, there's no question about it. That being said, I stand behind it 100% because of the benefits to everyone involved. Collectors, dealers and PSA will all benefit from this decision. I am confident of that.

2) Please read the guide on our site. It seems as if many of the questions can be answered by the guide and I just want to make sure everyone knows it is there because it does walk the reader through the process, etc.

3) Message Boards can be a funny place. In some cases, you can't even be certain that the people posting are "real" or that their claims are genuine. I have been talking to a lot of people and receiving emails as well. The response has been overwhelmingly positive despite some uproar on these boards. You all should be aware of that.

4) At the end of the day, the people who should benefit the most from this new system are people like you - the people sitting on the most PSA product - the people sitting on the most potential upgrades. Yes, it will cost money to review your cards but the cost will, generally, be greatly outweighed by the increase in value.

It doesn't matter if we use the 1955 Topps Koufax example (in the guide) or a 1950's common example, the value proposition is tremendous. If you have 100 commons that are worth $80 on average in PSA 8 and PSA 9's currently sell for $500, $1,000 or more - isn't it worth finding out if those cards are 8.5's if it only costs $6 to do it? While none of us know exactly what half-grades will sell for in the beginning, it is very clear that the value is there because of the price gaps between grades. I can give you thousands of examples, it's not hard to do.

The cost of reviewing your cards can be far outweighed by the added value if you choose wisely. No, you shouldn't submit every card. Carefully look through your collection. You may want a collector/friend or dealer to assist you before you try the service. It can improve your success rate.

5) Remember...this is optional. There is no obligation to resubmit your cards.

6) While people tend to slant true public view on the boards (since the vast majority of collectors are not on the boards), believe me...less than 24 hours after the announcement, we have a lot of people calling us, excited about the service.

7) As far as the post that I made in 2003 where I said that we are not going to half grades after some debate, that was 5 years ago and I did not say - never. I was addressing the topic at that point in time and a lot has changed since then.

This new service will change the market forever and I am confident of the benefits this service will provide to owners of PSA cards, sellers and potential buyers. It took a lot of thought and, while change is never easy for anyone, sometimes it is necessary to improve the product. At the end of the day, it is our brand - PSA - that people pay for and trust. The PSA brand hasn't changed, only the grading scale has and for the better.

I appreciate all of your feedback and concerns. Please realize that I cannot be on the boards all that often but I will try to answer questions as the days progress.

Take care,

Joe Orlando

Ladder7 · January 17, 2008 4:59AM

Joe,

What about subs currently unlogged or in que? Can these be shelved 'til 2/1?

MeteoriteGuy · January 17, 2008 5:02AM

Wanted to get in before locked.

stown · January 17, 2008 5:02AM

Thank you for the insight, Joe.

My only question is regarding the flips.

Will they change to reflect the new grading system?

Thanks!

leathtech · January 17, 2008 5:02AM

Great question... what's the plan for this??? I know I would be very unhappy if had a large sub in right now. I will watch to see what your response is!

artistlost · January 17, 2008 5:03AM

I just posted this else where but will do so again. I just got off the phone with customer service and was told that all new in-coming orders will be graded with the .5..I was inquiring about a modern bulk sub that was received last Friday and was not yet logged and that was the answer I was told. My order will be graded with .5's.

mathew

MeteoriteGuy · January 17, 2008 5:05AM

<< Thank you for the insight, Joe.

My only question is regarding the flips.

Will they change to reflect the new grading system?

Thanks! >>

A slight change, such as in the past, would clear the concerns of most collectors I think.

storm888 · January 17, 2008 5:06AM

"At the end of the day, the people who should benefit the most from this new system are people like you - the people sitting on the most PSA product - the people sitting on the most potential upgrades. Yes, it will cost money to review your cards but the cost will, generally, be greatly outweighed by the increase in value."

//////////////////////////////////////////////////

That is what I am counting on.

I hate ANY change, but as I go through my stacks I see LOTS
of money that is likely/possibly going to end up in my pocket
because of the resub .5-scheme.

If at some point, you felt comfortable sharing some of the non-proprietary
raw data that market-research presented before you made the final decision,
ALOT of folks would be comforted.

Thanks.

PS: I am a small CLCT shareholder and LOVE the dividend.

stown · January 17, 2008 5:10AM

<< 

<< Thank you for the insight, Joe.

My only question is regarding the flips.

Will they change to reflect the new grading system?

Thanks! >>

A slight change, such as in the past, would clear the concerns of most collectors I think. >>

Perhaps instead of a red flip, it could be pink.

CDsNuts · January 17, 2008 5:14AM

nam- Here's your chance to call Joe out again.

bifff257 · January 17, 2008 5:15AM

<< My only question is regarding the flips. Will they change to reflect the new grading system?
>>

After hours of reading everyone posts and concerns with regards to this topic, this seems to be the biggest issue.

Ladder7 · January 17, 2008 5:16AM

<< I just posted this else where but will do so again. I just got off the phone with customer service and was told that all new in-coming orders will be graded with the .5..I was inquiring about a modern bulk sub that was received last Friday and was not yet logged and that was the answer I was told. My order will be graded with .5's.

mathew >>

Thankyou for posting their response Mathew.

Tvac897 · January 17, 2008 5:20AM

Nice job with the quick response. Respect for showing true concern for your customer base.

Tedw9 · January 17, 2008 5:21AM

Edited because I found the answer.

baseballfanatic · January 17, 2008 5:22AM

I'm counting everyone I should buy lip balm for next year at Christmas....

CDsNuts · January 17, 2008 5:23AM

I'd like to say that 2003 was not that long ago. You should just admit that you were wrong then and you're correcting the oversight.

css23 · January 17, 2008 5:30AM

Joe, On a scale of 1-10 I give this move a 7.5.

DrJ · January 17, 2008 5:54AM

Joe you may want to check out the Poll started here on the board to get a gauge of some of your biggest supporter's feelings regarding this issue. It is overwhelmingly the opposite of those who have been calling (?!?) you up since the annoucement.

Personally I am not into the crack and resubmit grade or registry sets, so I will not be giving PSA double income in hopes of a half grade, though I am not necessarily opposed to the new system either going forward. What it does though is make PSA appear to have gone from a market leader committed to their standards, to a follower in the market. It also seems like an attempt to increase revenue, as verified by your comments above.

J

onefasttalon · January 17, 2008 5:59AM

Ya know, if PSA really wants to 'compete' with BGS and SGC, then wipe out the $100/year membership fee.
Make the (now pointless) population reports FREE like everyone else's... and forget about the "6 freebie gradings."
...and... If anyone wants the SMR, they can just subscribe to it.

Darin · January 17, 2008 6:08AM

Joe, please consider sending all your members 5 free grade review vouchers. It would be a generous gesture, to help your customers in this time of transition for your company.

Darin · January 17, 2008 6:24AM

Joe, you do realize this decision has resulted in hundreds of fairly unfunny .5 jokes on these boards, right? An apology wouldn't be completely out of order, either.

bigdcards · January 17, 2008 6:37AM

Hi Joe,

Going forward I completely agree that a half point system is better. That is probably the reason for the comments you are getting.

But this doesn't address the main issue here. My family collectively has roughly $75,000 worth of PSA graded cards. This investment was made with the highest confidence of PSA. Now things have changed quite a bit and we will lose money as a result. If we do nothing but sit on our cards the value will inevitably go down as 5.5s begin to be favored over our 5s. If we send all of our cards to be graded a second time then we will lose overwhelmingly on grading fees. Frankly the suggestion that I cherry pick my cards to see which one's might get a higher score is insulting. The whole purpose of grading is that an expert has looked at my cards and determined their condition. You were paid good money for this service. Now you want me to go through them all and see if the experts were dead on or half way there, because your admitedly flawed system did not do what it was designed to. You offer nothing in the way of compesation for the enourmous finnancial hit we will take because we believed in PSA. Instead you want us to give more money for what has already been paid for.

At the very least you should change the flip to reflect a change in the system. Otherwise my cards will be judged against the .5 system unfairly to our financial loss. It has been stated by many but you have not given a reason for or against this. The change could be as simple as a number added to the beggining of each card. No one is asking you to make an overhaul that will change the appearance, but simply identify the eras in grading.

Thanks
Darren

Mrcardsniper · January 17, 2008 6:59AM

<< Hi Joe,

Going forward I completely agree that a half point system is better. That is probably the reason for the comments you are getting.

But this doesn't address the main issue here. My family collectively has roughly $75,000 worth of PSA graded cards. This investment was made with the highest confidence of PSA. Now things have changed quite a bit and we will lose money as a result. If we do nothing but sit on our cards the value will inevitably go down as 5.5s begin to be favored over our 5s. If we send all of our cards to be graded a second time then we will lose overwhelmingly on grading fees. Frankly the suggestion that I cherry pick my cards to see which one's might get a higher score is insulting. The whole purpose of grading is that an expert has looked at my cards and determined their condition. You were paid good money for this service. Now you want me to go through them all and see if the experts were dead on or half way there, because your admitedly flawed system did not do what it was designed to. You offer nothing in the way of compesation for the enourmous finnancial hit we will take because we believed in PSA. Instead you want us to give more money for what has already been paid for.

At the very least you should change the flip to reflect a change in the system. Otherwise my cards will be judged against the .5 system unfairly to our financial loss. It has been stated by many but you have not given a reason for or against this. The change could be as simple as a number added to the beggining of each card. No one is asking you to make an overhaul that will change the appearance, but simply identify the eras in grading.

Thanks
Darren >>

I agree 100% with what Darren just said. The flip has to be changed in some way. Anything else is just unfair to the collectors. Not all cards in my collection are worthy of a +.5 regrade. The $6.00 resub fee on top of the sub fee invested in them already I don't think so. Yes, it would be great to have some of my stuff regraded and bumped +.5. But not all is worth the investment. So now I have lots of cards in the $100.00 and less value not worth what they were because a PSA8 worth $100.00 is now a investment of $106.00 plus shipping to be bumped to a PSA8.5 worth what $125.00-$130.00. It's just not really worth it for me. I would rather buy more cards with my $6.00 and add them to my collection instead. "Thanks for improving thing's for us Joe"
Paul

SDavid · January 17, 2008 7:15AM

My family collectively has roughly $75,000 worth of PSA graded cards. This investment was made with the highest confidence of PSA. Now things have changed quite a bit and we will lose money as a result. If we do nothing but sit on our cards the value will inevitably go down as 5.5s begin to be favored over our 5s.

That's an assumption a lot of people are making but I believe it's false. Half grades are nothing new in this industry. If you want to get an idea of how PSA whole grades will sell, look at how SGC 84's and 88's have sold. I just did a completed items search on ebay for SGC 84's and I saw several cards that sold above the average values for PSA 7's. Also saw cards that were smack dab in the middle and cards that were in the lower range of value. To me, centering and eye-appeal have always been the main factors that determine whether a card sells within the higher or lower end of the value range for its respective grade, and your cards won't have any less eye-appeal today than they had yesterday.

schr1st · January 17, 2008 7:22AM

Edit: nevermind, I'm done discussing this subject, and done with PSA. So long, and thanks for all the fish!

bigdcards · January 17, 2008 7:31AM

<< My family collectively has roughly $75,000 worth of PSA graded cards. This investment was made with the highest confidence of PSA. Now things have changed quite a bit and we will lose money as a result. If we do nothing but sit on our cards the value will inevitably go down as 5.5s begin to be favored over our 5s.

That's an assumption a lot of people are making but I believe it's false. Half grades are nothing new in this industry. If you want to get an idea of how PSA whole grades will sell, look at how SGC 84's and 88's have sold. I just did a completed items search on ebay for SGC 84's and I saw several cards that sold above the average values for PSA 7's. Also saw cards that were smack dab in the middle and cards that were in the lower range of value. To me, centering and eye-appeal have always been the main factors that determine whether a card sells within the higher or lower end of the value range for its respective grade, and your cards won't have any less eye-appeal today than they had yesterday. >>

If 6.5s exist it will have at least some impact on the value of the 6s. Right now we have been paying the same for 6.5s and 6s. But now the distinction will be made. So the 6.5s will rise for sure and inversely the 6s should go down. We have been working on the assumption that all 6s could be 6.5s. Now that doubt is gone. The 6s are by definition not a 6.5. Huge difference.

CDsNuts · January 17, 2008 7:36AM

"High end" 8s have always sold for a premium over deserving 8s, so basically the 8.5s will take over in the pricing for high end 8s (maybe go a little higher). Look at 86-87 Fleer Jordan rookies: The well-centered 7s, 8s and 9s almost always bring a nice premium over the standard 7s, 8s , and 9s. Now, at least you will have a better idea where the card stands because of an 8.5 grade and can bid accordingly instead of guessing or hoping that there are no flaws you can't see on the ebay scan. Your card values will not go down, unless you have PSA 8s-9s that are selling at a super-premium.

stown · January 17, 2008 7:40AM

<< Your card values will not go down, unless you have PSA 8s-9s that are selling at a super-premium. >>

They could go down if it's a low end grade and they paid a premium for whatever reason.

You make money on the buy, not the sale.

shagrotn77 · January 17, 2008 7:41AM

Joe,

I appreciate you taking the time to address many of our issues here on the boards. We know you didn't have to do so.

Regards,
Andy

tennesseebanker · January 17, 2008 7:41AM

Bottom line is Psa really could care less about the value of Joe Schmo's collection. You can bet Joe and the boys at Psa have made deals with some of the big time collectors in the hobby and on the set registry to cross their collections over for $1 or $2 per card plus a guarantee of of so many getting the .5 bump. Yeah, If I were them I would be happy as hell too. Remember, If the big money is happy everybody else better be.

123Slider · January 17, 2008 7:44AM

<< At the very least you should change the flip to reflect a change in the system. Otherwise my cards will be judged against the .5 system unfairly to our financial loss. It has been stated by many but you have not given a reason for or against this. The change could be as simple as a number added to the beggining of each card. No one is asking you to make an overhaul that will change the appearance, but simply identify the eras in grading.

Thanks
Darren >>

I pitched on the other thread that it could be as simple as new flips contain "6.0" instead of just "6" It's simple, doesn't change the look, and allows those collectors who care enough about the issue to be informed about the card as much as possible. True or not, the failure to make a distinction in the cards time of grading will be looked at by many as a way for cards that are passed around, to be continuously submitted in hoping for the .5 bump. In my opinion, something along these lines would be the least that PSA could do for all of the money that collectors have invested in the past.

wildjimmy · January 17, 2008 7:56AM

Thanks for the answers.

My question that i dont see has been addressed anywhere is... what is to stop PSA or any company for that matter, going to .25 grades or .10, in 5 years will i be getting a nolan ryan with an 8.10 grade and have to resubmit everything i own. I am see both sides of changing it to .5 but I really wonder if this is just a stepping stone to the next level...

BigRedMachine · January 17, 2008 8:01AM

I also completely agree with Darren's post.

If a current PSA 8 cards sells for $100, then in the not to near future, 8.5's will be selling for $120 and 8's will be selling for $80. There's not a doubt in my mind.

What I also don't understand is the crack and resubmit game. If grading is so subjective between a 7, 8, or 9, and cards go from one grade to another everytime the same card is sent in, our we really suppose to believe the boys at PSA are bright enough to start including half grades??

This is stupid.

WinPitcher · January 17, 2008 8:14AM

WinPitcher · January 17, 2008 8:16AM

what is to stop PSA or any company for that matter, going to .25 grades or .10,

I'll answer that one............NOTHING.

Steve

WinPitcher · January 17, 2008 8:17AM

Joe

Thanks for coming on and replying. I appreciate that.

I think the marketplace will take care of everything.

Steve

vintagetoppsguy · January 17, 2008 8:18AM

<< From the start, I have been against .5 grades 7/10/2003 >>

<< I stand behind it 100% 1/17/2008 >>

Which is it Joe? Are you against it or do you stand behind it 100%? If you stand behing it 100%, what SPECIFICALLY has changed that made you change your mind?

<< The fact that I asked for the opinions of collectors and dealers just shows that WE DO LISTEN to your concerns and we do not make decisions here without considering the implications. 7/10/2003 >>

Please tell me, other than the board members (80% of which don't like the change - please see my poll), who else have you consulted with on this change? Any market research? Can you name just ONE place & date that ANY research/survey was done? Or was survey taken behind closed doors in a shareholder meeting?

Joe I stand behind you 100%. Oh wait a minute! Like a few other collectors on this board, I think SGC will get my business from now on.

SGC - SOME GRADERS CARE

stown · January 17, 2008 9:06AM

<< (80% of which don't like the change - please see my poll) >>

What do you think of PSA's new half point grading system?

Total Votes: 207

Like it
39 (votes) 18.84 (%)

Dislike it
137 (votes) 66.18 (%)

Undecided
31 (votes) 14.98 (%)

RawPlusSlabbed · January 17, 2008 9:17AM

<< 

<< (80% of which don't like the change - please see my poll) >>

What do you think of PSA's new half point grading system?

Total Votes: 207

Like it
39 (votes) 18.84 (%)

Dislike it
137 (votes) 66.18 (%)

Undecided
31 (votes) 14.98 (%) >>

This poll means nothing as it represents only 1% of the customer base. Not only that, but this 1% does not think like the other 99%, which makes all input useless, as Joe O. stated.

stown · January 17, 2008 9:26AM

<< 

<< 

<< (80% of which don't like the change - please see my poll) >>

What do you think of PSA's new half point grading system?

Total Votes: 207

Like it
39 (votes) 18.84 (%)

Dislike it
137 (votes) 66.18 (%)

Undecided
31 (votes) 14.98 (%) >>

This poll means nothing as it represents only 1% of the customer base. Not only that, but this 1% does not think like the other 99%, which makes all input useless, as Joe O. stated. >>

And don't forget that it's most likely skewed from the anti-psa board members.

Then you have alts and the alt's alt and even the alt's alt's atl.

WinPitcher · January 17, 2008 9:27AM

I want to know how you managed to get your name up on Carol's thread?

Steve

cravetopps · January 17, 2008 9:30AM

Stown.....you left something out of your vote tally and I wanted to bring it to your attention.

<<<Total Votes: 207

Like it
39 (votes) 18.84 (%)

Dislike it
137 (votes) 66.18 (%)

Undecided
31 (votes) 14.98 (%) >>>>

Board of Directors (Love the idea)

8 (votes) 100.00 (%)

And, in case you didn't see their last quarter results....

Collectors Universe (CLCT) more than tripled its quarterly dividend from $.08 to $.25, but reported another quarter of losses. For the quarter ended Sep. 30, CLCT reported net revenues of $10.8 million and a loss from continuing operations of $100,000, or $0.01 per diluted share, versus net revenues of $9.9 million and income from continuing operations of $383,000, or $0.04 per diluted share in the prior year quarter.

Downtown1974 · January 17, 2008 9:36AM

I really like 123Sliders idea of the decimal point in the post Feb 1st submissions. Keep the flip the same, but instead of getting an 8, it will be assigned as 8.0. Great idea!

stown · January 17, 2008 9:46AM

<< I really like 123Sliders idea of the decimal point in the post Feb 1st submissions. Keep the flip the same, but instead of getting an 8, it will be assigned as 8.0. Great idea!

>>

It would be the most logical and easiest transition.

Almost too easy, if you ask me...

70chip · January 17, 2008 10:01AM

<< Ya know, if PSA really wants to 'compete' with BGS and SGC, then wipe out the $100/year membership fee.
Make the (now pointless) population reports FREE like everyone else's... and forget about the "6 freebie gradings."
...and... If anyone wants the SMR, they can just subscribe to it. >>

Joey O, you may want to read, re-read and ask Carol to interpret what this quoted post means because it is DEAD on and the most logical post in this thread.

bigdcards · January 17, 2008 10:14AM

<< 

<< I really like 123Sliders idea of the decimal point in the post Feb 1st submissions. Keep the flip the same, but instead of getting an 8, it will be assigned as 8.0. Great idea!

>>

It would be the most logical and easiest transition.

Almost too easy, if you ask me... >>

Me 3

Also any card that is resubmitted should get the .0 or .5 designation.

WinPitcher · January 17, 2008 10:23AM

If they do that then every card will have to be cracked out. Not feasable. What is feasable though is for them to begin using the .0 going forward. That way we willl at least know that the card was post Feb 08 graded.

I can't see them cracking slabs that are not worthy of a bump.

Maybe a sticker? I dunno.

Steve

bigdcards · January 17, 2008 10:29AM

<< If they do that then every card will have to be cracked out. Not feasable. What is feasable though is for them to begin using the .0 going forward. That way we willl at least now that the card was post Feb 08 graded.

I can't see them cracking slabs that are not worthy of a bump.

Maybe a sticker? I dunno.

Steve >>

If they are charging the full fee then cracking the card should not be an issue. Also there should not be a financial incentive to give a lower grade.

ripkenintheminors · January 17, 2008 10:31AM

<< I want to know how you managed to get your name up on Carol's thread?

Steve >>

I've been wondering the same thing.

gemint · January 17, 2008 10:46AM

This move is useless in my opinion until PSA addresses their significant grading inconsistancies. It's bad enough now where you have to crack and resubmit cards to get the proper grade. Until the grades are decently consistant from one grader to the next, going to a half point scale will do nothing to improve accuracy of the grades. When I resubmit 6's to get 8's and 8's to get 10's, that proves the margin of error in grading is much greater than 1/2 a grade.

Joe, what is being done to ensure graders are maintaining consistant standards? Are they tested whereby a stack of cards is graded by each grader with the results compared to determine consistant standard across the entire staff of graders?

Thanks.

diamondman · January 17, 2008 11:02AM

Hello Joe, Thanks for your reply and your concerns. I would vote to keep the flips the same , I don't want to see 8.0 on any of my future subs PSA 8 or 7 or 9 is fine and the tne cards that deserve the
6.5 or 7.5 ect ect be put on the same flips as the cards that were graded last week or last year. This will be my only suggestion since the main decision to go to half grades is already set in stone and I hope it works for the company and the collectors alike, and any bumps in the road will be small and hopefully smooth sailing and for some of us diehards, well please send hammer so we can beat the idea into our heads and if this does not work send some free vouchers for whiskey and beer at our local bars and dives. Sincerely Mike Felts

A Message from the President - Half Grade System

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