<< <i> While I certainly cannot speak on PNG's role, I doubt it has any "policing" ability outside its own membership.
>>
It is telling that the name of the organization is Professional Numismatists GUILD. Like the striking WRITERS GUILD, a guild is an "Association of craftsmen or merchants formed for mutual aid and for the advancement of their professional interests. Guilds flourished in Europe between the 11th and 16th century and were of two types: merchant guilds, including all the merchants of a particular town or city; and craft guilds, including all the craftsmen in a particular branch of industry (e.g., weavers, painters, goldsmiths). Their functions included establishing trade monopolies, setting standards for quality of goods, maintaining stable prices, and gaining leverage in local governments in order to further the interests of the guild."
Britannica Concise Encyclopaedia
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>ok so I can keep it on topic, (and I am not sure if it was mentioned) will the fact Robert Johnson won the coin grading world series help his cause? >>
<< <i>Ebay has not stopped one of them from selling anything they could sell before. Just limited the way they can define it in the title as well as claim a value based on data for coins that are graded under a different standard. >>
You can't mention PCI or SEGS in the Title OR in the description. You can't search for them
You have to plow through all the garbage listed as RAW to find PICTURES of PCI and SEGS slabs.
It's a death penalty.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>Interesting point, if they have kept Tiffany at bay for this length of time I doubt there is any incentive to settle soon with the new lawsuit. They could just keep filing legal motion after legal motion until the other side is facing bankruptcy with legal bills and just gives up. (that is what Ebay would hope anyway). >>
Heck, that's how the U.S. defeated the Soviet Union without firing a shot at them -- turn it into a battle of financial attrition and spend your opponent into insolvency. Unfortunately (not necessarily in this case, but in general), what that means is that the deep pockets can prevail without ever going to court, regardless of the merits or lack thereof. >>
And OTOH, "plantiffs" are eager to file frivolous lawsuits in hopes that the deep pockets will choose to settle.
<< <i>Ebay has not stopped one of them from selling anything they could sell before. Just limited the way they can define it in the title as well as claim a value based on data for coins that are graded under a different standard. >>
You can't mention PCI or SEGS in the Title OR in the description. You can't search for them
You have to plow through all the garbage listed as RAW to find PICTURES of PCI and SEGS slabs.
I can easily find coins slabbed by ACG, PCI, SEGS or Numistrust (which, to their credit, has not chosen to participate in this lawsuit) by searching the names in item description. I have no intention of searching for NNC, period. We all draw the line somewhere. >>
You are finding violations that have not been ended yet. You may not mention the names of those grading companies AT ALL ANYWHERE.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>And OTOH, "plantiffs" are eager to file frivolous lawsuits in hopes that the deep pockets will choose to settle. >>
And when such a suit is judged frivolous, I'd like to see the loser pay all costs court costs and legal defense fees.
I'm not convinced that this is completely frivolous, though. Not a winner, perhaps, but not entirely frivolous. And I think one if not two of the plaintiffs deserve better than what happened to them as a result of this policy change. Doesn't mean I think this entire class of plaintiffs should win the suit, but I don't think it's 100% without merit.
One thing, did you all know that Exon still has not payed the bill for Alaska yet. Lawers! What they should do is set a time for bills to be paid and thats it. That would stop all this Lawer bull!
Never give up the hunt! 25 inf 1/14 Gold Dragons ,never surrender, over come and adapt and hold at all cost!
<< <i>If it's okay for you to decide that Accugrade doesn't grade correctly, why can't eBay make the same decisions about other grading companies and set up listing policies based on those descisions? >>
Because I am selling something I own, I am not just a venue.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>Because I am selling something I own, I am not just a venue. >>
It's eBay's site- I don't see where they have an obligation to provide a venue for people to sell anything that eBay decides is not in their best interest.
Maybe eBay should just ban coins in those third-world slabs altogether. Would that be better?
<< <i>It's eBay's site- I don't see where they have an obligation to provide a venue for people to sell anything that eBay decides is not in their best interest. >>
You are right. But it misses the point that as soon as eBay starts making judgment calls about what is in the best interest of stopping "fraud" and "blatant overgrading," they are no longer just a venue. They have used that "just a venue" argument for nearly a decade in defending themselves from lawsuits against people who were defrauded through eBay sales. Basically, the point was, "we don't verify the quality of what is being sold here, we just provide a 'venue', so we can't be legally responsible for this person getting crappy goods that weren't as advertised."
To defend this suit, IMO -- if it gets to trial -- they will have to assert a need (and a right) to exercise "editorial control" in a manner of speaking, as it relates to what they allow to be sold and how they allow certain objects that they deem "inferior" to sold as raw instead of as certified. And to me, that means admitting that you are more than just a venue.
OK . Now my two cents worth . This may be an echo of 'astrorat , stev32k , ziggy29 , coinking1969 , and frankcoins ', but in the world of coins , the grey sheet can be considered the bible . The grey sheet happens to list 8 grading services . Who is EBAY to decide who plays on the team , and who gets benched? Similar to the Geico Caveman Commercial in the restaurant from last year. "Do a little research"
<< <i>It's eBay's site- I don't see where they have an obligation to provide a venue for people to sell anything that eBay decides is not in their best interest. >>
You are right. But it misses the point that as soon as eBay starts making judgment calls about what is in the best interest of stopping "fraud" and "blatant overgrading," they are no longer just a venue. They have used that "just a venue" argument for nearly a decade in defending themselves from lawsuits against people who were defrauded through eBay sales. Basically, the point was, "we don't verify the quality of what is being sold here, we just provide a 'venue', so we can't be legally responsible for this person getting crappy goods that weren't as advertised."
To defend this suit, IMO -- if it gets to trial -- they will have to assert a need (and a right) to exercise "editorial control" in a manner of speaking, as it relates to what they allow to be sold and how they allow certain objects that they deem "inferior" to sold as raw instead of as certified. And to me, that means admitting that you are more than just a venue. >>
But they (as has been pointed out before) already do so - and the "just a venue" argument hasn't failed them - yet.
<< <i>But they (as has been pointed out before) already do so - and the "just a venue" argument hasn't failed them - yet. >>
But what they do historically is ban entire classifications of items -- guns, body parts, et cetera. Since eBay bans ALL gun sales, it's not going to put some gun makers out of business while propping up others. There is no real restraint of trade question here and really there is no judgment being made about the relative merits of one gun maker over another.
They haven't historically created double standards for how you can describe the same type of item based on the brand name attached to what you are selling. But here with their coin selling policy, they are.
That is where I think they may be skating on thin ice legally, at least in terms of defending this suit AND claiming they are "just a venue." I think one of them has to give.
<< <i>OK . Now my two cents worth . This may be an echo of 'astrorat , stev32k , ziggy29 , coinking1969 , and frankcoins ', but in the world of coins , the grey sheet can be considered the bible . The grey sheet happens to list 8 grading services . Who is EBAY to decide who plays on the team , and who gets benched? Similar to the Geico Caveman Commercial in the restaurant from last year. "Do a little research" >>
Do a little research before you buy anything. This is no different than buying fake Chinese coins(still allowed on Ebay),Copied Coins(still allowed on Ebay),2x2 cardboard holders with grades written on them(still allowed on Ebay), and just plain old raw coins that are cleaned that the pictures don't show. Some even hype their coins like the Home Shopping (The Vault), if anything going to be banned lets start their.
<< <i>They haven't historically created double standards for how you can describe the same type of item based on the brand name attached to what you are selling. But here with their coin selling policy, they are. >>
They didn't used to restrict how buyers could request payment either, but they do now. So they changed their policy. Is that illegal?
If you don't think eBay's policies are beneficial to your business, you have the absolute right to not use eBay for your business. Seems easy enough to me.
For the record- there are plenty of things that eBay has done which I disagree with, but at the end of the day, it's their company, and they get to decide what the rules are for selling on their website.
<< <i><< But they (as has been pointed out before) already do so - and the "just a venue" argument hasn't failed them - yet. >>
But what they do historically is ban entire classifications of items -- guns, body parts, et cetera. >>
That's what they used to do, but has not been the case for several years now. Just ask anybody who regularly lists designer merchandise such as clothing and jewelry. Not only will they end auctions that misuse the trademarks or list counterfeit material, they regularly and frequently end auctions of authentic non-infringing material simply because the seller has crossed some nebulous volume threshold for any given particular item.
EBay does not claim to be an auction house but rather a public bulletin board. Generally, eBay is not licensed as an auctioneer. It will be interesting if the courts hold eBay to some higher duty of public accomodation.
Oh, and eBay actually has a very simple defense against the NNC's of the world. Their coin policy stipulates that only independent third party grading services can be listed as certified. Considering the fact that the owner of NNC sells NNC material, they certainly cannot argue that they are an independent third party grading service.
eBay will, however, have a more difficult time making that argument in the case of SEGS and PCI - which is why SEGS and PCI should have filed their own suit independent of NNC, et al.
Russ is correct about eBay is no longer "just a venue." For instance, here is an example eBay itself presents about selling used clothing: Joe lists his old sweater for sale on eBay. A buyer won the item and Joe sent the sweater to the winning buyer. Unfortunately, Joe did not have the sweater dry-cleaned before he sent it to the winning buyer. In this case, Joe has violated eBay policy.
Hopefully this fact is not anything any of us might need to know. But it clearly does indicate that eBay is setting some (minimal) standards.
<< <i>OK . Now my two cents worth . This may be an echo of 'astrorat , stev32k , ziggy29 , coinking1969 , and frankcoins ', but in the world of coins , the grey sheet can be considered the bible . The grey sheet happens to list 8 grading services . Who is EBAY to decide who plays on the team , and who gets benched? Similar to the Geico Caveman Commercial in the restaurant from last year. "Do a little research" >>
With all due respect, since when does the tail wag the dog? Coins need eBay, not the other way around. If you get the impression that they think they are bigger than the grey sheet, bigger than the coin "industry", well guess what?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Considering the fact that the owner of NNC sells NNC material, they certainly cannot argue that they are an independent third party grading service. >>
So Russ, is the definition of an "independent third party grading service" one in which the owner(s) do not sell material graded by the company they own? How about principals in that company or graders in the company?
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Frank has hit the nail on the head. This case is about whether eBay is an auctioneer (who generally have great discretion on what they sell and which eBay has historically denied being) or whether eBay is a bulletin board selling general advertising (in which case many would argue eBay is subject to laws governing restraint of trade).
<< <i>Frank has hit the nail on the head. This case is about whether eBay is an auctioneer (who generally have great discretion on what they sell and which eBay has historically denied being) or whether eBay is a bulletin board selling general advertising (in which case many would argue eBay is subject to laws governing restraint of trade). >>
I just checked one of the local paper's websites, which offers general advertising. The first line of their advertising policy reads:
The Idaho Statesman reserves the right to censor, reclassify, revise, edit, or reject any advertisement not meeting its standards of acceptance.
edited to add... I don't get the "restraint of trade" argument, either. All the markets around here carry numerous products, but *none* of them carry *all* of the different products of any particular class. Apparently, these businesses are deciding among the various manufacturers available which products they choose to offer. Nobody seems to be suing anybody because they can get product "X" and "Y" but not product "Z" at Megamart.
eBay is the place the seller gets to conduct his/her auction, for a fee, and under certain guidelines, criteria, restrictions. It's a venue, a bulletin board.
Next!
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
eBay is the place the seller gets to conduct his/her auction, for a fee, and under certain guidelines, criteria, restrictions. It's a venue, a bulletin board.
Next! >>
It would be that simple if eBay only was charging a listing fee ..... but not a final value fee and leveraged PayPal as the primary payment vehicle with its associated fees. Not to mention, they also run the auction mechanism subject to the bidding rules they establish. They aren't craigslist, even if they have a significant stake in that too.
<< <i>Oh, and eBay actually has a very simple defense against the NNC's of the world. Their coin policy stipulates that only independent third party grading services can be listed as certified. Considering the fact that the owner of NNC sells NNC material, they certainly cannot argue that they are an independent third party grading service.
eBay will, however, have a more difficult time making that argument in the case of SEGS and PCI - which is why SEGS and PCI should have filed their own suit independent of NNC, et al.
Russ, NCNE >>
Sorry to hear you were nuked at eBay's coin forum.
Threads on this subject are going POOF over on the eBay C&PM Board.
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
I wonder if Ebay was retaliating against Centles for filing the lawsuit when they dumped some 700 of his listings on January 8th? Here's the letter he sent out to his customers:
<< <i>To our customers,
Last night eBay ended all of our auctions, they and many others will be up again sometime in the next 24 hours.
We believe four of the 700+ auctions that were ended violated some part of eBay's new listing policy. If you were bidding on an auction that was ended, please email us what eBay's reason was via attachment. Thank you.
We really would like to see how eBay notified people last night or if they gave any reason at all. We will have a huge Great Britain Collection launching Wednesday along with the ended auctions and many more World and US Coins.
This message is being posted for SEGS Grading Service.
Just for the record (not that anyone on this board cares) SEGS Grading Service is not part of the suite filed... No member at SEGS talked to or corresponded with the representing law firm, nothing was signed or authorized, nor was any money paid.
<< <i>This message is being posted for SEGS Grading Service.
Just for the record (not that anyone on this board cares) SEGS Grading Service is not part of the suite filed... No member at SEGS talked to or corresponded with the representing law firm, nothing was signed or authorized, nor was any money paid.
<< <i>
Good to hear, I guess. How perchance did the name get on the complaint?
That is an excellent question. I would love to hear the answer to myself. There doesn't seem to be a response from the person asked that question. However, he has been paged several times at FUN to come to the SEGS table... so far no show
<< <i>It will be interesting to see how much they claim they lost, especially since they can still sell the same stuff as before. >>
Since the plaintiffs have to prove their claim of lost revenue and the only way to do so is to produce before and after financial statements, the discovery process could prove to be quite interesting. I've always wondered just how much revenue some of these guys are generating.
Oh, and another thought just occurred to me. Why has Abon, aka SGS, not joined this action?
Russ, NCNE >>
I doubt if they were invited to join. They may fall into a different class as has been discussed, in depth, on every coin forum I have ever read.
<< <i>It will be interesting to see how much they claim they lost, especially since they can still sell the same stuff as before. >>
Since the plaintiffs have to prove their claim of lost revenue and the only way to do so is to produce before and after financial statements, the discovery process could prove to be quite interesting. I've always wondered just how much revenue some of these guys are generating.
Oh, and another thought just occurred to me. Why has Abon, aka SGS, not joined this action?
Russ, NCNE >>
I doubt if they were invited to join. They may fall into a different class as has been discussed, in depth, on every coin forum I have ever read. >>
No, I think you can lump all the overgraders into one lump entity...
Comments
ok so I can keep it on topic, (and I am not sure if it was mentioned) will the fact Robert Johnson won the coin grading world series help his cause?
Stece
I'm from florida......and I don't give s*it.........
<< <i>
While I certainly cannot speak on PNG's role, I doubt it has any "policing" ability outside its own membership.
>>
It is telling that the name of the organization is Professional Numismatists GUILD. Like the striking WRITERS GUILD, a guild is an
"Association of craftsmen or merchants formed for mutual aid and for the advancement of their professional interests. Guilds flourished
in Europe between the 11th and 16th century and were of two types: merchant guilds, including all the merchants of a particular town
or city; and craft guilds, including all the craftsmen in a particular branch of industry (e.g., weavers, painters, goldsmiths). Their
functions included establishing trade monopolies, setting standards for quality of goods, maintaining stable prices, and gaining
leverage in local governments in order to further the interests of the guild."
Britannica Concise Encyclopaedia
<< <i>ok so I can keep it on topic, (and I am not sure if it was mentioned) will the fact Robert Johnson won the coin grading world series help his cause? >>
Already mentioned.
Russ, NCNE
sorry it was my attention deficit.
Stece
<< <i>Ebay has not stopped one of them from selling anything they could sell before. Just limited the way they can define it in the title as well as claim a value based on data for coins that are graded under a different standard. >>
You can't mention PCI or SEGS in the Title OR in the description. You can't search for them
You have to plow through all the garbage listed as RAW
to find PICTURES of PCI and SEGS slabs.
It's a death penalty.
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting point, if they have kept Tiffany at bay for this length of time I doubt there is any incentive to settle soon with the new lawsuit. They could just keep filing legal motion after legal motion until the other side is facing bankruptcy with legal bills and just gives up. (that is what Ebay would hope anyway). >>
Heck, that's how the U.S. defeated the Soviet Union without firing a shot at them -- turn it into a battle of financial attrition and spend your opponent into insolvency. Unfortunately (not necessarily in this case, but in general), what that means is that the deep pockets can prevail without ever going to court, regardless of the merits or lack thereof. >>
And OTOH, "plantiffs" are eager to file frivolous lawsuits in hopes that the deep pockets will choose to settle.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ebay has not stopped one of them from selling anything they could sell before. Just limited the way they can define it in the title as well as claim a value based on data for coins that are graded under a different standard. >>
You can't mention PCI or SEGS in the Title OR in the description. You can't search for them
You have to plow through all the garbage listed as RAW
to find PICTURES of PCI and SEGS slabs.
It's a death penalty. >>
Maybe, like the man said, "they needed killin'"
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
I can easily find coins slabbed by ACG, PCI, SEGS or Numistrust (which, to their credit, has not chosen to participate in this lawsuit) by searching the names in item description. I have no intention of searching for NNC, period. We all draw the line somewhere. >>
You are finding violations that have not been ended yet. You may not mention the names of those grading companies AT ALL ANYWHERE.
<< <i>And OTOH, "plantiffs" are eager to file frivolous lawsuits in hopes that the deep pockets will choose to settle. >>
And when such a suit is judged frivolous, I'd like to see the loser pay all costs court costs and legal defense fees.
I'm not convinced that this is completely frivolous, though. Not a winner, perhaps, but not entirely frivolous. And I think one if not two of the plaintiffs deserve better than what happened to them as a result of this policy change. Doesn't mean I think this entire class of plaintiffs should win the suit, but I don't think it's 100% without merit.
Lawers! What they should do is set a time for bills to be paid and thats it.
That would stop all this Lawer bull!
25 inf 1/14 Gold Dragons ,never surrender, over come and adapt
and hold at all cost!
<< <i>If it's okay for you to decide that Accugrade doesn't grade correctly, why can't eBay make the same decisions about other grading companies and set up listing policies based on those descisions? >>
Because I am selling something I own, I am not just a venue.
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>Because I am selling something I own, I am not just a venue. >>
It's eBay's site- I don't see where they have an obligation to provide a venue for people to sell anything that eBay decides is not in their best interest.
Maybe eBay should just ban coins in those third-world slabs altogether. Would that be better?
<< <i>It's eBay's site- I don't see where they have an obligation to provide a venue for people to sell anything that eBay decides is not in their best interest. >>
You are right. But it misses the point that as soon as eBay starts making judgment calls about what is in the best interest of stopping "fraud" and "blatant overgrading," they are no longer just a venue. They have used that "just a venue" argument for nearly a decade in defending themselves from lawsuits against people who were defrauded through eBay sales. Basically, the point was, "we don't verify the quality of what is being sold here, we just provide a 'venue', so we can't be legally responsible for this person getting crappy goods that weren't as advertised."
To defend this suit, IMO -- if it gets to trial -- they will have to assert a need (and a right) to exercise "editorial control" in a manner of speaking, as it relates to what they allow to be sold and how they allow certain objects that they deem "inferior" to sold as raw instead of as certified. And to me, that means admitting that you are more than just a venue.
coinking1969 , and frankcoins ', but in the world of coins , the grey sheet can be
considered the bible . The grey sheet happens to list 8 grading services .
Who is EBAY to decide who plays on the team , and who gets benched?
Similar to the Geico Caveman Commercial in the restaurant from last year.
"Do a little research"
<< <i>
<< <i>It's eBay's site- I don't see where they have an obligation to provide a venue for people to sell anything that eBay decides is not in their best interest. >>
You are right. But it misses the point that as soon as eBay starts making judgment calls about what is in the best interest of stopping "fraud" and "blatant overgrading," they are no longer just a venue. They have used that "just a venue" argument for nearly a decade in defending themselves from lawsuits against people who were defrauded through eBay sales. Basically, the point was, "we don't verify the quality of what is being sold here, we just provide a 'venue', so we can't be legally responsible for this person getting crappy goods that weren't as advertised."
To defend this suit, IMO -- if it gets to trial -- they will have to assert a need (and a right) to exercise "editorial control" in a manner of speaking, as it relates to what they allow to be sold and how they allow certain objects that they deem "inferior" to sold as raw instead of as certified. And to me, that means admitting that you are more than just a venue. >>
But they (as has been pointed out before) already do so - and the "just a venue" argument hasn't failed them - yet.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>They greysheet does not list certified coins. Ebay is not affiliated with CDN, so why should they use them as a guide? >>
The Bluesheet does - sister publication.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>But they (as has been pointed out before) already do so - and the "just a venue" argument hasn't failed them - yet. >>
But what they do historically is ban entire classifications of items -- guns, body parts, et cetera. Since eBay bans ALL gun sales, it's not going to put some gun makers out of business while propping up others. There is no real restraint of trade question here and really there is no judgment being made about the relative merits of one gun maker over another.
They haven't historically created double standards for how you can describe the same type of item based on the brand name attached to what you are selling. But here with their coin selling policy, they are.
That is where I think they may be skating on thin ice legally, at least in terms of defending this suit AND claiming they are "just a venue." I think one of them has to give.
<< <i>OK . Now my two cents worth . This may be an echo of 'astrorat , stev32k , ziggy29 ,
coinking1969 , and frankcoins ', but in the world of coins , the grey sheet can be
considered the bible . The grey sheet happens to list 8 grading services .
Who is EBAY to decide who plays on the team , and who gets benched?
Similar to the Geico Caveman Commercial in the restaurant from last year.
"Do a little research" >>
Do a little research before you buy anything. This is no different than buying fake Chinese coins(still allowed on Ebay),Copied Coins(still allowed on Ebay),2x2 cardboard holders with grades written on them(still allowed on Ebay), and just plain old raw coins that are cleaned that the pictures don't show. Some even hype their coins like the Home Shopping (The Vault), if anything going to be banned lets start their.
<< <i>They haven't historically created double standards for how you can describe the same type of item based on the brand name attached to what you are selling. But here with their coin selling policy, they are. >>
They didn't used to restrict how buyers could request payment either, but they do now. So they changed their policy. Is that illegal?
If you don't think eBay's policies are beneficial to your business, you have the absolute right to not use eBay for your business. Seems easy enough to me.
For the record- there are plenty of things that eBay has done which I disagree with, but at the end of the day, it's their company, and they get to decide what the rules are for selling on their website.
<< <i><< But they (as has been pointed out before) already do so - and the "just a venue" argument hasn't failed them - yet. >>
But what they do historically is ban entire classifications of items -- guns, body parts, et cetera. >>
That's what they used to do, but has not been the case for several years now. Just ask anybody who regularly lists designer merchandise such as clothing and jewelry. Not only will they end auctions that misuse the trademarks or list counterfeit material, they regularly and frequently end auctions of authentic non-infringing material simply because the seller has crossed some nebulous volume threshold for any given particular item.
They ceased being "just a venue" long ago.
Russ, NCNE
eBay will, however, have a more difficult time making that argument in the case of SEGS and PCI - which is why SEGS and PCI should have filed their own suit independent of NNC, et al.
Russ, NCNE
Hopefully this fact is not anything any of us might need to know.
<< <i>OK . Now my two cents worth . This may be an echo of 'astrorat , stev32k , ziggy29 ,
coinking1969 , and frankcoins ', but in the world of coins , the grey sheet can be
considered the bible . The grey sheet happens to list 8 grading services .
Who is EBAY to decide who plays on the team , and who gets benched?
Similar to the Geico Caveman Commercial in the restaurant from last year.
"Do a little research" >>
With all due respect, since when does the tail wag the dog? Coins need eBay, not the other way around. If you get the impression that they think they are bigger than the grey sheet, bigger than the coin "industry", well guess what?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>BTW, it appears that eBay does not wish this to be discussed. They nuked my thread about it over on their coin forum. >>
I guess they figured that would become Exhibit E.
<< <i>Considering the fact that the owner of NNC sells NNC material, they certainly cannot argue that they are an independent third party grading service. >>
So Russ, is the definition of an "independent third party grading service" one in which the owner(s) do not sell material graded by the company they own? How about principals in that company or graders in the company?
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Who is EBAY to decide who plays on the team , and who gets benched? >>
If eBay misinterprets buyers' demands, their business will suffer. If not, it won't. Either way, it's their company, and their decision how to run it.
I really don't understand why anyone would think that it's eBay's obligation to ensure that someone else's business remains profitable.
<< <i>Frank has hit the nail on the head. This case is about whether eBay is an auctioneer (who generally have great discretion on what they sell and which eBay has historically denied being) or whether eBay is a bulletin board selling general advertising (in which case many would argue eBay is subject to laws governing restraint of trade). >>
I just checked one of the local paper's websites, which offers general advertising. The first line of their advertising policy reads:
The Idaho Statesman reserves the right to censor, reclassify, revise, edit, or reject any advertisement not meeting its standards of acceptance.
edited to add... I don't get the "restraint of trade" argument, either. All the markets around here carry numerous products, but *none* of them carry *all* of the different products of any particular class. Apparently, these businesses are deciding among the various manufacturers available which products they choose to offer. Nobody seems to be suing anybody because they can get product "X" and "Y" but not product "Z" at Megamart.
The seller is the auctioneer.
eBay is the place the seller gets to conduct his/her auction, for a fee, and under certain guidelines, criteria, restrictions. It's a venue, a bulletin board.
Next!
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>That's easy.
The seller is the auctioneer.
eBay is the place the seller gets to conduct his/her auction, for a fee, and under certain guidelines, criteria, restrictions. It's a venue, a bulletin board.
Next! >>
It would be that simple if eBay only was charging a listing fee ..... but not a final value fee and leveraged PayPal as the primary payment vehicle with its associated fees. Not to mention, they also run the auction mechanism subject to the bidding rules they establish. They aren't craigslist, even if they have a significant stake in that too.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Oh, and eBay actually has a very simple defense against the NNC's of the world. Their coin policy stipulates that only independent third party grading services can be listed as certified. Considering the fact that the owner of NNC sells NNC material, they certainly cannot argue that they are an independent third party grading service.
eBay will, however, have a more difficult time making that argument in the case of SEGS and PCI - which is why SEGS and PCI should have filed their own suit independent of NNC, et al.
Russ, NCNE >>
Sorry to hear you were nuked at eBay's coin forum.
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>To our customers,
Last night eBay ended all of our auctions, they and many others will be up again sometime in the next 24 hours.
We believe four of the 700+ auctions that were ended violated some part of eBay's new listing policy. If you were bidding on an auction that was ended, please email us what eBay's reason was via attachment. Thank you.
We really would like to see how eBay notified people last night or if they gave any reason at all. We will have a huge Great Britain Collection launching Wednesday along with the ended auctions and many more World and US Coins.
-Centsles
>>
Just for the record (not that anyone on this board cares) SEGS Grading Service is not part of the suite filed...
No member at SEGS talked to or corresponded with the representing law firm, nothing was signed or authorized, nor was any money paid.
no actual legal standing, the sued party ,or parties, can counter sue
for expenses plus damages. I hope this happens and the miscreants
have to pay thru the nose.
Camelot
<< <i>This message is being posted for SEGS Grading Service.
Just for the record (not that anyone on this board cares) SEGS Grading Service is not part of the suite filed...
No member at SEGS talked to or corresponded with the representing law firm, nothing was signed or authorized, nor was any money paid.
<< <i>
Good to hear, I guess. How perchance did the name get on the complaint?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
There doesn't seem to be a response from the person asked that question.
However, he has been paged several times at FUN to come to the SEGS table... so far no show
<< <i>
<< <i>It will be interesting to see how much they claim they lost, especially since they can still sell the same stuff as before. >>
Since the plaintiffs have to prove their claim of lost revenue and the only way to do so is to produce before and after financial statements, the discovery process could prove to be quite interesting. I've always wondered just how much revenue some of these guys are generating.
Oh, and another thought just occurred to me. Why has Abon, aka SGS, not joined this action?
Russ, NCNE >>
I doubt if they were invited to join. They may fall into a different class as has been discussed, in depth, on every coin forum I have ever read.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It will be interesting to see how much they claim they lost, especially since they can still sell the same stuff as before. >>
Since the plaintiffs have to prove their claim of lost revenue and the only way to do so is to produce before and after financial statements, the discovery process could prove to be quite interesting. I've always wondered just how much revenue some of these guys are generating.
Oh, and another thought just occurred to me. Why has Abon, aka SGS, not joined this action?
Russ, NCNE >>
I doubt if they were invited to join. They may fall into a different class as has been discussed, in depth, on every coin forum I have ever read. >>
No, I think you can lump all the overgraders into one lump entity...
I wonder if PCI is the same? or if someone plans on buying PCI to make NNC more respectable?
If I remember the date correctly (1/10), it would seem that suit is after aggrevation of cancelling Centless auctions
<< <i>It is interesting that SEGS was included in the class without consultation
I wonder if PCI is the same? or if someone plans on buying PCI to make NNC more respectable?
If I remember the date correctly (1/10), it would seem that suit is after aggrevation of cancelling Centless auctions >>
But no doubt weeks or months in the making...
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1