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Life after PayPal
Lionel
Posts: 536 ✭
I just thought I'd drop everyone out there at note (particularly those who sell on EBAY) and tell you that this past fall I sold a number of First Spouse gold coins on EBAY, and a couple of Platinum Eagles, and I chose not to take PayPal because the total extra fees would have been in the hundreds of dollars (turning profit into loss in many cases) and due to the fraud stories I've read about on this message board.
I want to say that I don't mind at all stopping by my PO Box and getting something in the mail I can look at, verify, and have the people at my local bank verify as well. And, as far as I can tell I sold the coins at fair market value give or take the inevitable unpredictability of EBAY, and I got about as many bids as any other seller for the items I sold.
No PayPal, no problem.
I want to say that I don't mind at all stopping by my PO Box and getting something in the mail I can look at, verify, and have the people at my local bank verify as well. And, as far as I can tell I sold the coins at fair market value give or take the inevitable unpredictability of EBAY, and I got about as many bids as any other seller for the items I sold.
No PayPal, no problem.
Anyone can make a difference, but most people probably shouldn't. -- Marge Simpson
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<< <i>I just thought I'd drop everyone out there at note (particularly those who sell on EBAY) and tell you that this past fall I sold a number of First Spouse gold coins on EBAY, and a couple of Platinum Eagles, and I chose not to take PayPal because the total extra fees would have been in the hundreds of dollars (turning profit into loss in many cases) and due to the fraud stories I've read about on this message board.
I want to say that I don't mind at all stopping by my PO Box and getting something in the mail I can look at, verify, and have the people at my local bank verify as well. And, as far as I can tell I sold the coins at fair market value give or take the inevitable unpredictability of EBAY, and I got about as many bids as any other seller for the items I sold.
No PayPal, no problem. >>
New sellers (registered after August 2007) must include PayPal as a payment option if you want to sell on eBay. If you can't factor in the additional expense of taking PayPal (around 3%) and still make a profit, which the additional number of bids should easily cover, you probably shouldn't be selling it on eBay IMO.
<< <i> >>
New sellers (registered after August 2007) must include PayPal as a payment option if you want to sell on eBay. If you can't factor in the additional expense of taking PayPal (around 3%) and still make a profit, which the additional number of bids should easily cover, you probably shouldn't be selling it on eBay IMO. >>
I don't agree with this thought at all. It has been discussed on many threads here how the potential buyer should factor in the total cost in determining their bids-no one will bid more just because a person accepts paypal. When a seller has to add to the value of their coin the price of the auction listing and FVF & postage and paypal fees, especially on high dollar coins it becomes very difficult to sell at a profit and for the buyer to get value for their dollar.
WS
Most critical of course is the top two bids. If a potential bidder shies away for want of the paypal option, you may lose out big time on the final hammer. Some coins have such high demand that it probably matters less. But if you have a high value coin, it can be a penny wise/pound foolish proposition.
When selling early dollars, I sometimes mention that I will accept electronic payment by prior arrangement only. But, I usually offer Paypal. Actually, since the dollars have been soft for the last two years or so, I have pretty much halted sales on the bay.
<< <i>BUT, I have seen plenty of coins, nice coins, for sale with good BIN prices sit with dust on them because the ONLY method accepted was paypal.
WS >>
IMO, bidders like the chase and prospect of a rip. Buy it now doesn't appeal to that crowd.
<< <i>BUT, I have seen plenty of coins, nice coins, for sale with good BIN prices sit with dust on them because the ONLY method accepted was paypal.
WS >>
The same goes for many sellers that require an unsecured payment method.
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However, later this year I've got a group of 2007 W $10 platinum Eagles to sell (once the US Mint has completely sold out of them), and perhaps I'll offer some with PayPal and some without and make an empiracle experiment out of it. That might be fun.
A USPS Money order is my method of payment & if the transaction goes wrong.. the seller will have to deal with the US Postal Inspectors !
Sellers _Demanding PayPal ONLY... won't get a nickle from me..
this used to be enough for eBay to cancel auction if notified
BUT, I remember back in the day, before paypal. Wow, you'd sell 10 things and the mail would come in a week or two weeks later, then you'd sell other stuff. Boy, talk about a logistical nightmare. Thinks are much easier today. Even with the flaws.
I use BIN regularly, as long as it is a reasonable priced BIN.
I see some BIN's that are, IMHO, way elevated.
If I want the coin and it is priced correct, I actually prefer the BIN option. I have met a number of sellers (I thnk they may be B&M's in real life) that I buy from their websites to avoid auctions.
I hate getting sniped. I'd just rather know I have it in the bag.
ebay ID: 78terp
ANA # R-3143946
1899 Mint Set
<< <i>Offer Pay Pal, but also offer buyers a nice discount/rebate to use a cashiers check or money order. Calculate theP/P fees, say its $40. Offer $15-20-25 back. Both you and the buyer come out ahead
this used to be enough for eBay to cancel auction if notified >>
No. I don't think that is/was the case. You can offer discounts but you can't say "don't use paypal and I will give you a discount" and you can't say "if you use paypal, pay me $x.xx more (or 3% more)". It's all the same thing but it is all in the wording to what you can get away with.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Russ, NCNE
Interesting. Ties right in with the consumer finance advocates who advise people to cut up credit cards, because - on average - people carrying cards spend more than people carrying cash.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Offer Pay Pal, but also offer buyers a nice discount/rebate to use a cashiers check or money order. Calculate theP/P fees, say its $40. Offer $15-20-25 back. Both you and the buyer come out ahead
this used to be enough for eBay to cancel auction if notified >>
they'd cut off their nose to spite their face eh?
<< <i>
<< <i>I just thought I'd drop everyone out there at note (particularly those who sell on EBAY) and tell you that this past fall I sold a number of First Spouse gold coins on EBAY, and a couple of Platinum Eagles, and I chose not to take PayPal because the total extra fees would have been in the hundreds of dollars (turning profit into loss in many cases) and due to the fraud stories I've read about on this message board.
I want to say that I don't mind at all stopping by my PO Box and getting something in the mail I can look at, verify, and have the people at my local bank verify as well. And, as far as I can tell I sold the coins at fair market value give or take the inevitable unpredictability of EBAY, and I got about as many bids as any other seller for the items I sold.
No PayPal, no problem. >>
New sellers (registered after August 2007) must include PayPal as a payment option if you want to sell on eBay. If you can't factor in the additional expense of taking PayPal (around 3%) and still make a profit, which the additional number of bids should easily cover, you probably shouldn't be selling it on eBay IMO. >>
The problem is that there is no GOOD way to be certain that you can get a guaranteed sale price for your item unless you use a BIN or high first bid or a reserve all of which tend to turn buyers off instead of exciting them. Otherwise one would need to be fairly selective about what one lists there.
<< <i>Fact: Accepting credit cards, (read: PayPal), in business increases average per unit sales as well as average per customer totals. That cannot be disputed. Those who argue that they do just as well while refusing to accept PayPal are delusional. Sure, one can point to specific examples where an item sold strong with no PayPal, but those exceptions prove nothing. Overall, a seller is screwing themselves by not accepting it.
Russ, NCNE >>
I agree totally with Russ (and Floridabuff)
The key to higher auction prices is obvious: the more bidders the higher the price.
Any part of an auction that limits bidders will limit the final price.
Reserves, high shipping, bad feedback, no returns, no Paypal, etc.
One more bid at almost any price level will cover any Paypal fees.
Just the convenience alone is worth it in my opinion.
Rookie Joe
In my experience, this sums things up the best.
After one too many hassles and ludicrous decisions by PayPal for blatant abuse of their chargeback policy, I refuse to take it for any item greater than $250. I don't care what your feedback history or reputation supposedly is. Their fee structure is also absurd, IMHO. Their signiture confirmation policy is an absolute joke, on top of their already ridiculous requirements for proof of delivery and ability to file a claim way beyond payment submission. Some will argue that chargebacks are a cost of doing business. To each their own, but I will no longer take that risk for payments > $250, and I am 100% content with that decision.
FWIW, I have been using PayPal since inception, and have been on eBay since March 1997.
<< <i>Fact: Accepting credit cards, (read: PayPal), in business increases average per unit sales as well as average per customer totals. That cannot be disputed. Those who argue that they do just as well while refusing to accept PayPal are delusional. Sure, one can point to specific examples where an item sold strong with no PayPal, but those exceptions prove nothing. Overall, a seller is screwing themselves by not accepting it.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well, just for you I went through my sales and compared them to auction closing prices that are out there on EBAY. These were all Martha and Abigail First Spouse coins with an assortment of grades from PCGS and NGC, 69s and 70s. Here's how they came out: First the coin product, and then selling prices that were equal (fair market), significantly lower, or significantly higher. Sorry I'm too lazy to put the numbers of each coin sold.
PR70 Martha pcgs equal and greater
MS70 Martha NCG equal
PR69 Martha equal equal and greater
MS70 Abigail equal and lower
PF70 Abigail equal
MS69 Abigail equal
PF69 Abigail lower
So, I for myself can safely say that I lost nothing by not taking PayPal.
<< <i>Well, just for you I went through my sales and compared them to auction closing prices that are out there on EBAY. >>
Which is meaningless since there are too many additional variables, and the sampling is too small. Every retail study ever done clearly proves that accepting credit cards improves sales. This is irrefutable.
Russ, NCNE
I would guess the $600-$800 coin market may be different than the $5-15 market
I ask myself if it is worth the trouble to get a money order (versus clicking a button) for a $10 item, and usually do not bid on something I probably would have if they require MO
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, just for you I went through my sales and compared them to auction closing prices that are out there on EBAY. >>
Which is meaningless since there are too many additional variables, and the sampling is too small. Every retail study ever done clearly proves that accepting credit cards improves sales. This is irrefutable.
Russ, NCNE >>
It's not meaningless for me. It' s good to study statistics to learn about reality (and I do), but statistics don't need to determine my reality, and apparently in this case they did not. What's not "meaningless" is that I could have taken PayPal, realized the same prices, and been out hundreds of dollars. Acceptance of credit cards may improve sales, but my customers apparently don't need to go in debt to buy stuff.
<< <i>If far fewer people bid on auctions that don't offer paypal as some of you claim, it stands to reason that some of the best deals involve those auctions that don't offer paypal. Less competition means a better price for the buyers. Thanks for the tip. >>
That has been my experience.
<< <i>Offer Pay Pal, but also offer buyers a nice discount/rebate to use a cashiers check or money order. Calculate theP/P fees, say its $40. Offer $15-20-25 back. Both you and the buyer come out ahead
this used to be enough for eBay to cancel auction if notified >>
The law specifically allows sellers to offer a discount for cash or equivalent.
As I understand from reading other threads dealing with this topic, that some sellers have been stung at Pay Pal by buyers pursuing false claims. I haven't dealt with that yet, though I make sure higher priced items such as gold coins are sent USPS Registered/Insured, which of course significantly increases the postage & handling, which in turn may turn bidders away.
All in all, I'm satisfied in using Pay Pal, though I sure appreciate receiving the checks instead.
Do I take PayPal?
Yes, for items < $250, from users with confirmed addresses only. Only for low dollar items (<$25 or so, depending on the item) from any international bidders.
Will I ever make an exception to my policy?
Very doubtful. After the first burn, I said fine, cost of doing business. After the second burn, I wavered more and looked into alternatives. BidPay was the best, but I got tired of explaining it to everyone, although I did use it without issue on at least 100 occassions. After the third burn, I made rare exceptions for those who appeared as trustworthy/legitimate based on an on-line presence as possible. Got burned by that kind now as well, multiple times, and there are no longer any exceptions.
Does it hurt my business?
I don't think so. As has been mentioned, for higher dollar items, I don't think PayPal has nearly the same impact as it does for lower dollar items. Just my experience, but it's been developed over thousands of transactions.
The biggest issue to me is that PayPal holds no weight when it comes to complaints to a credit card company from a consumer. So then people tell me to accept e-checks only. Nah, people often don't take the time to read the entire auction listing, so just no PayPal offered period > $250.
Do I still get people who try to pay me with PayPal when I won't take it?
I have my e-mail address as part of my write-up, and this does happen, but I simply reject the payment with a quick explanation (same w/ non-confirmed addresses), and 95% of the time, people fulfill their payment via another means. If they don't, negative feedback for you. It was blatantly stated in my write-up.
Final Thought:
My post count is really low on here, but PayPal topics really interest me because of all the BS they've put me through. I wish there were a better alternative, or one in the works. Maybe Google Checkout or something similar will really evolve over the next yr or so. I'd definitely welcome the competition.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>In addition to the fees Paypal charges (which isn't really an issue IMO, I can file that under the cost of doing business), the most troubling possibility for many sellers is the potential for fraud via a chargeback from the buyer. All it takes is one dishonest buyer to screw you on a thousand dollar item and you will understand why many sellers will no longer accept Paypal for high end auction items. Paypal will side with the buyer every time, regardless of circumstance, and if the buyer claims he/she never authorized that charge your account will be debited by Paypal, even if you can prove delivery. Major auction houses don't accept Paypal or credit cards and require money orders or checks only, though many bidders will factor that into their bidding strategy, too. As a seller and a buyer, I can appreciate both sides of the argument on this issue. It's too bad that there are many scammers out there these days and they knew how to use and abuse the system against the honest seller in many cases. >>
Question to Ebay sellers..what was your gross profit margin.... after ebay , paypal fees in 2007 ?
When selling---I am a check or MO seller. I do not need paypal to take control of my checking account.
<< <i>When buying---If the seller wants check ot MO and I want that item for my collection, then I bid on it. The sellers ability to take PAYPAL has no bearing on my decision to bid on an item.
When selling---I am a check or MO seller. I do not need paypal to take control of my checking account. >>
Apparently that makes you the exception rather than the rule; but I agree mitch yu; makes no matter to me really tho I have not been much of an eBayer of late.
Like most here I buy and sell on ebay......having to go and get a mo or bank check is a pain in the butt, paypal is a pain in the butt............paypal is less pain all around though!
just my 2-3 %.....
Is ebay working on trying to find better ways to deal with the seller issues?
Thanks.
RR
When I signed up for PayPal the sign up process was easy and enticing.
I readily gave them contact info, credit card and bank info, thinking of them as "establishment" and trustworthy.
what did they do.....?
Less than two weeks after doing business with them they "froze" my account calling
the transactions "suspicious." I was shocked that after several attempts to contact them
and resolve the matter, and sending them all the info they requested, they refused to budge.
This is part of their business strategy/plan: make money at the expense of innocent
customer-victims.
<< <i>Less than two weeks after doing business with them they "froze" my account calling
the transactions "suspicious." >>
It can get worse than that. If you sell something to a buyer who is also a seller and PayPal decides that that buyer/seller was paid for one of his items with "suspicious" funds and that buyer/seller has no money in his account at the time, PayPal will take the money the buyer/seller paid you out of your account, even though you have never been involved in a transaction with the person who sent "suspicious" funds.
<< <i>
no one will bid more just because a person accepts paypal. >>
I'll wager any sum of money that you're wrong.
It's a matter of convenience with paypal I don't have to go to the bank or wait for snail mail to get payment to the seller and have found that coins get to me faster---JMO as a buyer
<< <i>
<< <i>
no one will bid more just because a person accepts paypal. >>
I'll wager any sum of money that you're wrong. >>
I dont feel comfortable paying with anything but paypal
<< <i>
<< <i>
no one will bid more just because a person accepts paypal. >>
I'll wager any sum of money that you're wrong. >>
so is it because of the convenience or the fact that one can use a credit card? sheesh not only do we maximize value by getting it in the right plastic, but paying for it with the right plastic too.
yet we have all those sharpies who post here about how they factor shipping and juice and everything else into their chintzy bid but pay more on eBay simply cuz the seller takes PP, hey TeleTrade takes CCs and PP too.
You really think you're going to catch me sending money orders to some clown I don't know? Yeah right! (Not to mention the convenience of PayPal.)
P.S. Lionel's seven item sampling is clearly enough to irrefutably say that there is no harm in refusing to accept PayPal. Ya'll need to leave him alone!
<< <i>I will not bid on ANY item, no matter what, if the seller doesn't accept PayPal.
You really think you're going to catch me sending money orders to some clown I don't know? Yeah right! (Not to mention the convenience of PayPal.)
P.S. Lionel's seven item sampling is clearly enough to irrefutably say that there is no harm in refusing to accept PayPal. Ya'll need to leave him alone! >>
Thanks!
Actually my sampling contained 20 items, with several in each category. I've been a member of EBAY since 1999 and have a perfect feedback score, and I started by selling low value coins and worked up a track record of many satisfied customers. So, now people trust me enough to send checks and money orders for high value items. I'll be giving it a rest for a while though.
Oh yes, and thanks to all who contributed to this thread.
You really think you're going to catch me sending money orders to some clown I don't know? Yeah right! (Not to mention the convenience of PayPal.)
And therein lies the conflict. As buyers, we all want the protection that paypal provides, but as a seller, you are really taking a risk when you accept paypal for higher end auction items. I think there are many bidders who will avoid bidding from a seller who doesn't accept paypal, but there are also many more bidders who don't care either way, so the impact is not as significant as one would expect, IMO. If a seller has outstanding FB, I don't think they will realize a huge loss for not accepting paypal. I certainly haven't seen any big bargains in auctions where only checks or MO are accepted.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.