NGC VS. PCGS

skeeter · December 24, 2007 12:12PM

Just for curiosity.....If someone was to take new bullion coins that were graded MS70 from NGC...what percentage of those coins do you guys think would get graded MS70 from PCGS on a crossover?

Thanks and Merry Christmas.

Zoins · December 24, 2007 12:14PM

It's different by coin. You should be able to calculate the expected crackout rate using the numbers in their pop reports.

skeeter · December 24, 2007 12:18PM

Silver Eagles for example........I would guess 30%......would that be close?

wondercoin · December 24, 2007 12:21PM

Skeeter - purely depends on the coin in question.

Go do your own research on the 1997 $100 Plat Proof for example in PR70 at both services - what do you come up with?

Now, go check on the REV PROOF Gold 2006-W in PR70...

same analysis?

Wondercoin

tightbudget · December 24, 2007 12:22PM

Can't cross 70s to PCGS. If you were to crack them out and submit them raw again, I'd imagine the percentage would be very low (~10%).

Sunnywood · December 24, 2007 12:23PM

One might ask the reciprocal question as well ... how many PCGS 70's would cross to NGC?

One might also ask how many PCGS 70's, if cracked out and resubmitted, would come up 70 again?

Or, if the same coin were resubmitted on 100 different occasions, how many times would it 70 ?

skeeter · December 24, 2007 12:32PM

I am not planning on doing it....I was just curious.....but if someone did do it.....would he stand a better chance of getting a 70 in a crossover or cracking it....or would make a difference.

Goldbully · December 24, 2007 12:36PM

<< Just for curiosity.....If someone was to take new bullion coins that were graded MS70 from NGC...what percentage of those coins do you guys think would get graded MS70 from PCGS on a crossover?

Thanks and Merry Christmas. >>

The key word is : miniscule

Merry Christmas to you

coinman420 · December 24, 2007 12:45PM

<< Just for curiosity.....If someone was to take new bullion coins that were graded MS70 from NGC...what percentage of those coins do you guys think would get graded MS70 from PCGS on a crossover?

Thanks and Merry Christmas. >>

interesting post and welcome to the boards.....

my answer...10%

ngc hands out 70`s like candy, thats why i view ngc 70`s as 69`s.

i don`t submit to ngc because of this.

pitboss · December 24, 2007 12:50PM

NGC is at least one grade high in most of their gradings. I would not dream of sending any to them to grade.

DJCoinz · December 24, 2007 1:00PM

<< NGC is at least one grade high in most of their gradings. I would not dream of sending any to them to grade. >>

You're entitled to your opinion, but I find that statement ridiculous.

airedale · December 24, 2007 1:14PM

<< I am not planning on doing it....I was just curious.....but if someone did do it.....would he stand a better chance of getting a 70 in a crossover or cracking it....or would make a difference. >>

PCGS will not allow a 70 crossover. They cannot see the edge is the reason I was given.

BAJJERFAN · December 24, 2007 1:19PM

<< One might ask the reciprocal question as well ... how many PCGS 70's would cross to NGC?

One might also ask how many PCGS 70's, if cracked out and resubmitted, would come up 70 again?

Or, if the same coin were resubmitted on 100 different occasions, how many times would it 70 ? >>

Would a PCGS70 get a 71 at NGC? Or a 70.99?

skeeter · December 24, 2007 1:21PM

I thought I read somewhere that PCGC would take 70's but the submitter must be willing to accept a 69 in return.

Zoins · December 24, 2007 1:22PM

<< NGC is at least one grade high in most of their gradings. I would not dream of sending any to them to grade. >>

If that's the case, many people would submit to NGC precisely because they grade higher. Something to think about.

Coxe · December 24, 2007 2:11PM

<< It's different by coin. You should be able to calculate the expected crackout rate using the numbers in their pop reports. >>

That's most of it. You also have to consider that the more knowledgeable bulk submitters send the most promising pieces to PCGS. Therefore, the ratio from the pop reports is not the whole story. Then again, try cracking out 10 70s and 10 69s from PCGS holders and resubmitting them raw to see how they fare. Apparently, the people who have the most at stake in the 70 game are afraid to try it and find out what their position really is. They might be right; it might be a discernable difference that will manifest itself repeatably through the grading process.

airedale · December 24, 2007 2:15PM

<< I thought I read somewhere that PCGS would take 70's but the submitter must be willing to accept a 69 in return. >>

I guess cross at any grade would cover that. My error.

Raybo · December 24, 2007 2:56PM

<< Just for curiosity.....If someone was to take new bullion coins that were graded MS70 from NGC...what percentage of those coins do you guys think would get graded MS70 from PCGS on a crossover?

Thanks and Merry Christmas. >>

IMHO there is no such thing, a "perfect" coin does not (or should not) exist.
Heck.....even a 69 should be a freak.

Ray

Snapdragon · December 24, 2007 2:58PM

You must specify "Any" as the grade, in order for PCGS to accept a 70 for crossover. The reason is that they will crack the slab and void the guarentee in order to check the edge of the coin...and if the coin doesnt pass muster for a 70 it will be given whatever lower grade it deserves. If you don't allow them to crack the slab, they wont do the crossover because they cant inspect the edge.

Fact: On recent modern bullion, NGC has graded up to 50% of submitted coins as 70's. PCGS rarely exceeds 20% of submitted coins and is often far below 20% and that is why the pcgs graded coins command a premium in the market. On the 2006 1oz Buffalo NGC graded 30000 of 60000 (roughly...last i saw which was a long while back...im not sure if that was proof or MS) as 70's vs PCGS MS70's 3683 of 58040 current pop. or 6.34% The PCGS 2006 Buffalo proofs are 1891 of 9273 or a ratio of 20.4% currently.

The ratio of 70's for your coins submitted for crossover will most likely be approximately the same as the current ratio of 70's to total coins submitted for the specific issue you submit to PCGS as published in their population report...so become a member and analyse the pop report. The concept that, if NGC graded it a 70, it has a better chance of crossing to PCGS as a 70, is unfortunately not true, because they simply dont agree on an interpretation of the grading standards. So the result is that an NGC coin might as well be ungraded as far as PCGS is concerned. I consider all modern bullion not graded by PCGS to be ungraded, because it all trades so close to bullion as to make the grade meaningless. Only the PCGS 70's command much of a premium in the market, because there are so few of them.

Learn to grade for yourself. Learn what PCGS expects in a coin, and dont rely on NGC to cull your submissions for you. The odds are ..not good.

I hope this info helps...I learned it by trial and error.

Snapdragon

DenverDave · December 24, 2007 11:49PM

The numbers on the ASE 07W say about 50%...

With NGC grading at 20% and PCGS grading at 10%...

True Story without really even thing about it till now...

I purchased 10 NGC & 5 PCGS - ASE / 07W / MS70's...

Five of the NGC's were not MS70's IMHO...

jdimmick · December 24, 2007 11:53PM

I am guessing that many PCGS-70's if cracked and re-submitted would not necessarily achieve the 70 again, even if correctly graded. They are just not going to give but so many that are deserving out

PerryHall · December 25, 2007 12:12AM

<< I am guessing that many PCGS-70's if cracked and re-submitted would not necessarily achieve the 70 again, even if correctly graded. They are just not going to give but so many that are deserving out >>

Doesn't PCGS have a quota for the number of 70's that they can give out?

keets · December 25, 2007 12:13AM

this is a loaded question with a motive that each respondent needs to judge for themselves. i choose to pass.

jhdfla · December 25, 2007 12:23AM

<< 

<< NGC is at least one grade high in most of their gradings. I would not dream of sending any to them to grade. >>

You're entitled to your opinion, but I find that statement ridiculous. >>

I agree with you. In fact, I think the grade of 70 is ridiculous, even for moderns.

boucharda · December 25, 2007 12:24AM

Sounds like a company is creating its own rarities by limiting the 70's being graded. If I am lucky to find 10 70's out of a group of 100 coins and send them in to PCGS I would expect to get 10 70 grades back if they agreed. I would not be happy if I got 2 just because they want to keep their pop numbers down. Drop the pop #'s to 5% and drive the price up (and screw 95% of the submitters of true 70's)
Maybe NGC is the company correctly grading the coins as they see them and not trying to make a lottery of people's submissions.
Just an opinion....

pitboss · December 25, 2007 12:40AM

If you feel its rediculous then just keep sending your coins to NGC and when you sell them just take the lower price and smile.

fc · December 25, 2007 12:45AM

this post is quite funny. both tpgs have taken the road that leads
to maximum profits and make up their rules as they go.

ziggy29 · December 25, 2007 12:46AM

The more discussions like this dominate the higher end of the hobby, the more I'm enjoying collecting cheaper stuff to put in coin albums.

Frankcoins · December 25, 2007 2:51AM

A few years ago NGC took some PCGS graded coins, broke them out of the slabs and reholdered them in NGC slabs with the same grade, sent them in for crossover back to the same grades PCGS had just given them. Less than half crossed.

dbldie55 · December 25, 2007 3:18AM

<< If you feel its rediculous then just keep sending your coins to NGC and when you sell them just take the lower price and smile. >>

This has nothing to do with the post. The post was about grading, not pricing. There are many plastic buyers who will pay multiple times the price for the "exact same" coin in a PCGS holder.

boucharda · December 25, 2007 4:10AM

<< A few years ago NGC took some PCGS graded coins, broke them out of the slabs and reholdered them in NGC slabs with the same grade, sent them in for crossover back to the same grades PCGS had just given them. Less than half crossed >>

Excellent point......Again....Coin not the holder. But when you are talking about 70's it's a quota game since there are few who can tell a 69 from a 70 but a "perfect" coin should be granted its reward

Griv · December 25, 2007 4:16AM

I think that NGC is much better with classic coins but are fairly sloppy on bullion coins. They hand out 70s like candy.

rbalderman1 · December 25, 2007 5:30AM

Frank is that true??? What did PCGS say about this??? Did they believe NGC???

tombr · December 25, 2007 7:59AM

Last summer I cracked out 3 NGC PR70 Kennedy Halves. 2005 clads. One did come back PR70 from PCGS. the other 2 came back 69.

Coxe · December 25, 2007 8:12AM

<< Last summer I cracked out 3 NGC PR70 Kennedy Halves. 2005 clads. One did come back PR70 from PCGS. the other 2 came back 69. >>

Should have sent them in separately in three submissions, each teamed up with 2 69 crackouts. If the claim of a quota at PCGS is true, they gave the 70 to the most perfect of the 3 "perfect" coins you sent.

ksteelheader · December 25, 2007 8:23AM

<< 

<< NGC is at least one grade high in most of their gradings. I would not dream of sending any to them to grade. >>

You're entitled to your opinion, but I find that statement ridiculous. >>

You're way to kind. I was flat out thinking stupid.

tombr · December 25, 2007 8:38AM

Should have sent them in separately in three submissions, each teamed up with 2 69 crackouts. If the claim of a quota at PCGS is true, they gave the 70 to the most perfect of the 3 "perfect" coins you sent.

That never crossed my mind. Not a bad idea

PerryHall · December 25, 2007 8:52AM

<< 

<< 

<< NGC is at least one grade high in most of their gradings. I would not dream of sending any to them to grade. >>

You're entitled to your opinion, but I find that statement ridiculous. >>

You're way to kind. I was flat out thinking stupid. >>

RYK · December 25, 2007 8:58AM

<< The more discussions like this dominate the higher end of the hobby, the more I'm enjoying collecting cheaper stuff to put in coin albums. >>

Do not confuse this thread with the "higher end of the hobby".

I agree with Keets. I'll PASS.

DJCoinz · December 25, 2007 9:44AM

<< If you feel its rediculous then just keep sending your coins to NGC and when you sell them just take the lower price and smile. >>

Sorry, but this post made me laugh.

edited for spelling.

Griv · December 25, 2007 9:49AM

Stick with PCGS for your moderns and bullion.

dbldie55 · December 25, 2007 11:28AM

<< Stick with PCGS for your moderns and bullion.

>>

Or skip moderns and bullion and collect the coins in the plastic and not the number on the label.

Frankcoins · December 25, 2007 2:54PM

<< Frank is that true??? What did PCGS say about this??? Did they believe NGC??? >>

NGC sent a certified letter to all NGC dealers around 1999 telling this story. I am unaware of PCGS' response.

Gemineye · December 25, 2007 11:56PM

I love my 69.....

WinPitcher · December 26, 2007 12:39AM

I do not find what NGC did all that incredible, grading afterall is subjective and the difference between a 69 and a 70 are miniscule. (at 10xmagnification to boot)

I bet PCGS could do the same experiment in reverse and the results could be the same.

Steve

ttown · December 26, 2007 12:46AM

I beat you could send in the sam MS70 holdered coin in a PCGS holder 5 time and it wouldn't come back a 70 everytime. We're really splitting hairs here.

Treeman · December 26, 2007 1:01AM

<< If you feel its rediculous then just keep sending your coins to NGC and when you sell them just take the lower price and smile. >>
I usually BUY the SAME coin at a lower price, and yes, I do smile....
In reality, you can check a number of 69's, and a number of 70's (from BOTH services), and you will find that some of the 69's are nicer than some of the 70's. I have seen this, and so has everyone else on this board. I have also seen AU Large Cents (my main interest) in MS63 holders, again from BOTH services. I tend to go with 69's for moderns, because they are WAY cheaper, and true 70's don't exist anyway. I do admit to getting a 70 on the holder when I can, but it is for Registry points, not because of any belief that the coin is "perfect". I also prefer the NGC Registry, because they allow coins from either service. This seems a bit more "collector friendly", and a bit more realistic to me.

Coinosaurus · December 26, 2007 1:19AM

<< 
One might also ask how many PCGS 70's, if cracked out and resubmitted, would come up 70 again?

Or, if the same coin were resubmitted on 100 different occasions, how many times would it 70 ? >>

That is indeed the question. And no one has wanted to pay the 3K to find out

Coxe · December 26, 2007 3:50AM

Reputable TPGs bestowing a 70 was a bad idea IMO. But the genii is out of the bottle and there's little hope of turning back. If not for the milk spots, I doubt there would have been any move to damage control either. It is a risky premium game that I personally doubt will play out as a good investment into the future. If people like them, I am not going to argue with them. Just don't let a perfectionist character trait deceive you into doing something potentially very hazardous. Just think of the fun and higher potential of assembling sets of the finest 69s you can locate.

jmski52 · December 26, 2007 4:03AM

Should have sent them in separately in three submissions, each teamed up with 2 69 crackouts. If the claim of a quota at PCGS is true, they gave the 70 to the most perfect of the 3 "perfect" coins you sent.

What you are suggesting is that I might still have a PR-70 Silver Eagle lurking in the group of 5 that came back as PR-69s along with a PR-70.

Coxe · December 26, 2007 4:12AM

<< Should have sent them in separately in three submissions, each teamed up with 2 69 crackouts. If the claim of a quota at PCGS is true, they gave the 70 to the most perfect of the 3 "perfect" coins you sent.

What you are suggesting is that I might still have a PR-70 Silver Eagle lurking in the group of 5 that came back as PR-69s along with a PR-70. >>

I am suggesting that IF the allegations of a quota system are in force, and I don't know that there is such a thing going on, sending in 3 70s together might have damned one or two of them to the 69 box. Even without that, psychologically playing with the graders it might make sense to send in the most promising ones sandwich with solid 69s to make them stand out as singular individual specimens. Not a game I am keen to play, but makes sense to me if I was to do so.

NGC VS. PCGS

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