What went wrong with the Jefferson first spouse coin?

notlogical · November 5, 2007 1:32AM

I know a lot of people here thought they were going to be killer. I talked to a couple dealers here locally who thought the same thing. So what happened? Why didn't it increase in value or is it going to but, it's more of a tortoise instead of a hare kind of thing? Curious YN minds like to know.

AU58WALKERS · November 5, 2007 1:33AM

More sellers than buyers.

ModernCoinMart · November 5, 2007 1:38AM

<< More sellers than buyers. >>

Yup... they have a small mintage, but it seems that there aren't enough people that want the coin for demand to really push this coin. I believe these have a smaller mintage than the 95-W Silver Eagle... but then, there's a huge demand for Proof Silver Eagles in general that drives the price.

It's also like when you look at some of the Darkside coins. There's some beautiful coins with low mintages... but it doesn't matter much if there's 100 coins minted when only 50 people want to own one.

fastrudy · November 5, 2007 1:42AM

Had everything going for it except a collector base. Collectors of this series got burned twice if they had to secure their coins on the secondary market. I sold my MW Proof unopened for $780 (issue price was $430) soon after it was sent to me by the Mint. Then I actually saw a proof and liked it so much that I had seller's remorse. Just picked up a PCGS MW Proof yesterday for $449. from eBay. I'm happy.

TomB · November 5, 2007 1:46AM

I think it was a combination of better, more efficient and equitable distribution and excess production relative to current demand.

guitarwes · November 5, 2007 1:48AM

More people who wanted these got these directly from the Mint because of the Mint's regulations of only 1 each per household. As with the MW's and AA's, people bought 'em by the droves, and people paid well over Mint price for them because they couldn't order one from the Mint due to sellout.

Broader Even Distribution = lower market price.

Bochiman · November 5, 2007 1:48AM

What TomB said, imho.

A lot more collectors did seem to want it. With the 1 per customer (per type), I think more of those collectors were able to get them.
In addition, after watching the quick sellout from the early issues, I think people didn't hesitate (like they did on the first 2 since they thought they would be available for quite awhile).

rbalderman1 · November 5, 2007 1:57AM

I know to me it is mind boggling. I don't have a huge income but I managed to buy 3 from mint and 2 from ebay. I loved these coins and was hoping to make some $$$. But I cant sell these for this low of a price. I thought and as a matter of fact, I still think that by next Christmas these will be a big seller. I am concerned that thier are too many first strikes for this coin, compared to Martha and Abigail but I believe this is the key of the series. Good Luck to all who can hold onto these. I would hoard them if I could. They are very eye appealing.+++$$$ hopefully.

57loaded · November 5, 2007 1:58AM

with this issue we find out how many collector's of this series are really out there....not that many.....RIGHT NOW

then ask yourself how many people even know about this series, let alone the Prezy dollars.

the demand would be much greater if more common folk knew about these, maybe in a few years it will command some acceptable premium over melt.

if you have the funds and want to get into something these would be the ones to get a hold of for a long term and not flipping

agree with the poster above.....hang on to 'em if you can!...and....

pf70collector · November 5, 2007 2:06AM

Flippers don't want to hold these. In a few years who knows. I agree the ASE's have a larger collector base. The 1995 W Proof was a failure too but it is key to the set. Wait ten years. If this a onetime design it has a lot going for it in my opinion.

pf70collector · November 5, 2007 2:08AM

Also I never received any mailings on the gold proof spouse. They are not mentioned in the printed Gift Catalog I received last week. Not everyone is internet savvy or has access to it but they are advertised in Coin World and NN.

LALASD4 · November 5, 2007 2:14AM

Well, most people are wrong, most of the time, they are still worth $404 and going up, slowly.

RWB · November 5, 2007 2:16AM

I rarely comment on this kind of thing, but:

1. series is too long for collectors to maintain interest;
2. product is too expensive for most collectors to buy and hold;
3. impossible to display even at coin shows;
4. virtually no post sale interest except for bullion value;
5. large percent of collector base will turnover due to 10-year length of program;
6. other commemorative programs compete for the same limited dollars;
7. batteries not included….

All of this looks like the American Arts medals issued a few decades ago. Interesting designs, nice medals, culturally important subjects, but good for bullion only, for the same reasons as above.

mckaleta · November 5, 2007 2:23AM

cant time the market - ie this xmas or next xmas.

you just have to wait and be ready. ASE 20th set peaked and fell dramatically in the early summer. who knows when these will pick up.

some good indicators are the low mintage, beautiful design thats only used ONCE in the series, potential collectibilty with the liberty subset.

the mint did an amazing job reversing the tulip mania by releasing these all at once. as a result they have stunted the market and now IS good time to buy whatever you can afford. they did us a favor but it hasnt been realized yet. too many flippers are upset.

19Lyds · November 5, 2007 2:26AM

In a nutshell the US Mint killed the flipping market! Everybody that wanted one, got one and thats all there is to it!

Sure, it was a great design and a lot of folks were really jazzed about it but if the supply exceeds the demand then the prices stabilize rather quickly. The hot market created for the first two designs was created solely by the flippers who were able to corner the availablility of the coins via huge web orders. When the mint put the halt to that, there was no market left.

VicThrust · November 5, 2007 2:26AM

I sold 3 real fast and did well. I have 3 more I will hold. If you flip do it fast or plan on holding. I think these will do well long-term.

Arizonadesertrat · November 5, 2007 2:30AM

Ah, First Spouse 'coins.' Reminiscent of Franklin Mint products, no?

jdillane · November 5, 2007 2:34AM

I have voided the First Strike option by opening the mint shipping box last week.

But with First Strikes in abundance (and as regards the Jefferson spouse and others what does it really mean - wasn't every last one minted initially eligible for First Strike?)

wayneherndon · November 5, 2007 2:41AM

This series will be a loser until there is an issue in the 5000 and lower range. Until that point, these will be bullion pieces. The mintage are way too high for these to have any potential. The real question is not what happened to the Jefferson but what happened to the Washington and Adams. The Jefferson did exactly what it should have done based on the mintage, interest, etc. Somehow, some way, a lot of people got it into their heads that is would be a great series and the first two sold out quickly. Slow delivery contributed to the apparent lack of supply vs. demand. As a result, the first two ended up being the exceptions, not Jefferson.

I predict this series will see some pieces with mintages in the low four figures. Those are the ones that will have some potential.

WH

wondercoin · November 5, 2007 2:48AM

As I have said a few times before, nothing went wrong for those folks who sold their coins upon receipt from the mint for 19%+ return. In fact, things went pretty well. Those who got "greedy" lost on this one - right? it is as simple as that.

Wondercoin

BECOKA · November 5, 2007 2:59AM

<< As I have said a few times before, nothing went wrong for those folks who sold their coins upon receipt from the mint for 19%+ return. In fact, things went pretty well. Those who got "greedy" lost on this one - right? it is as simple as that.

Wondercoin >>

Or lazy like me, I kept putting it off and have not done anything with my extras yet.

Bear · November 5, 2007 3:03AM

Time will tell my children.

pf70collector · November 5, 2007 3:13AM

I have a wait and see attitude on the JT spouse. There really is no downside with $800 gold. Almost bought from the mint at cost. I have a small hoard of 6 of each in MS and PF. I am in no rush to get rid of these. Demand is filled now. But in later years-who knows. Its the later issues that are becoming cost prohibitive with the rising price of gold. The mint will price these in $480 range is my guess and it will only doom the series. Smaller mintages of less than 10,000 may be the only savior.

Loki · November 5, 2007 3:19AM

The proofs are steals at current prices imo. Hold what you have and buy the equivalent # in other liberty coins for the complete short set! NICE!

Bothuwui · November 5, 2007 3:39AM

Seems to me like the large scale buyers win again! They couldn't buy in quantities from the mint like before, so they got shut out of the initial offering. They are forced into buying in the after market, where they are going for less than mint issue price. They end up unintentionally saving money, as long as they believe these will eventually go back up in price.

I still think that we will be seeing rising prices through the end of the year. Gold has almost caught up to the mint release price, and Christmas should help the demand. The Dolly Madison release may spark people's interest as they will want to complete the '07 set of 4.

Bear · November 5, 2007 3:40AM

I'm with Loki.

jimmymac · November 5, 2007 3:54AM

<< 

<< More sellers than buyers. >>

Yup... they have a small mintage, but it seems that there aren't enough people that want the coin for demand to really push this coin. I believe these have a smaller mintage than the 95-W Silver Eagle... but then, there's a huge demand for Proof Silver Eagles in general that drives the price.

It's also like when you look at some of the Darkside coins. There's some beautiful coins with low mintages... but it doesn't matter much if there's 100 coins minted when only 50 people want to own one. >>

look at some of the early 1900 double eagles - you would think that these coins with low mintages would command a higher price - go figure??

AskRaq · November 5, 2007 4:16AM

<< The real question is not what happened to the Jefferson but what happened to the Washington and Adams. The Jefferson did exactly what it should have done based on the mintage, interest, etc. >>

I think the Mint's decision to impose such strict limitations on this particular offering caused a LOT less fanfare in the "general public" sector that buys the *hot* items pushed on HSN, QVC, etc... thus drastically reducing the *pseudo-collector* demand.

After all, if a typical "gotta get it now" buyer sees a *hot* item hyped on TV for say $1800... and the can buy it on eBay for "only" $1400, well then, that's a *deal* ~

sfs2002usa · November 5, 2007 4:44AM

I just like the coins to where I care not for the resale value. These are keepers. They will
appreciate over time, but it seems premature to assess their value so early in their cycle.

mckaleta · November 5, 2007 5:07AM

<< I have voided the First Strike option by opening the mint shipping box last week.

But with First Strikes in abundance (and as regards the Jefferson spouse and others what does it really mean - wasn't every last one minted initially eligible for First Strike?) >>

first strike might not so important with this coin specifically. but if someone wants to build a matching set of first strikes it will be. the premium will only get stronger

planetsteve · November 5, 2007 5:14AM

One more reason: the reverse ain't attractive. I feel like I bought half a coin.

TwoSides2aCoin · November 5, 2007 5:17AM

From my perspective, absolutely nothing went wrong with them. Speculators speculate. Flippers flip. Collectors collect. I have one in uncirculated condition and one in proof strike. To my knowledge, only gold has changed in the market. The coins are still collector's items. They weren't intended for anything else.
Incidentally, like all of my first spouse coins... they're in the original mint packaging.

ozzyfan269 · November 5, 2007 5:20AM

I just saw this posting on the BST forum. It seems like his prices for the MS/PR 70 First Strikes are pretty good. Are these in fact worthy of sending of for grading?

"Buying Jefferon's Liberty $10 Gold Spouse. Only want PCGS FirstStrikes.

PR69 DC FirstStrike - Pay $510
MS69 FirstStrike - Pay $475
PR70 DC FirstStrike - Pay $850
MS70 FirstStrike - Pay $725

Will also buy SEALED boxes of Jefferson's Liberty. Offer when you call.

Please call Jay with any of these coins you have for sale.

(800) 362-9004 x335

Also in need of a 1993-P $25 Gold Eagle NGC PF70 UC. Please offer if you have one. Thanks a bunch!

-------------------------
"The Modern Coin Superstore!""

mheffner2 · November 5, 2007 5:25AM

I have to ask...

<< but if someone wants to build a matching set of first strikes it will be. >>

If someone collected First Stikes, doesn't that mean the are buying the plastic? I'm not sure I know the value in First Strike other than someone getting the coin to the service before the deadline. This isn't to say I don't see the value in grading services, I just don't see the value in the FS designation. Learn me please.

BAJJERFAN · November 5, 2007 5:30AM

<< Time will tell my children.

>>

It ALWAYS does. Actually the Mint got out its bulldozer and levelled the playing field.

jhdfla · November 5, 2007 5:31AM

<< From my perspective, absolutely nothing went wrong with them. Speculators speculate. Flippers flip. Collectors collect. I have one in uncirculated condition and one in proof strike. To my knowledge, only gold has changed in the market. The coins are still collector's items. They weren't intended for anything else.
Incidently, like all of my first spouse coins... they're in the original mint packaging. >>

I bought one proof and it will remain in the original mint packaging as well. Only one just 'cause I liked the coin. It is perfect as well, and I've no doubt it would grade 70 if I sent it in, but the thought was to leave it alone in it's original packaging, so someday maybe when my grandkids get it, there will be a much smaller number as original as so many were slabbed that it will be worth something strictly on the basis of the coins quality and originality.

19Lyds · November 5, 2007 5:31AM

First Strike™ buyers are just that, First Strike™ buyers. Nothing more and nothing less but they are willing to pay an extra premium for the matching labels and there are those among us that feed their desires.

mhammerman · November 5, 2007 5:33AM

What went wrong...

Collectors had access to the offering and they got what they needed and aren't griping. These had flipper bait written all over them, especially after we saw the greed feed from the MW and AA. The US Mint was made keenly aware of the situation. The TJ coins have only been out for a couple of months and collectors are certainly not going to be griping about the lack of price appreciation in so short a period so the rest of the story is pretty obvious.

PrivateCoinCollector · November 5, 2007 5:34AM

Anyone who pays more for a coin because of some marketing mumbo jumbo (hense first strike) is exactly what this hobby needs.

Of the 40,000 coins minted, weren't almost all shipped within 30 days of the offering? So if I got this right, the only thing differentiating my first strike vs. a real First Strike is the Fee to get the label. Is this thing on?

Bear · November 5, 2007 5:37AM

With the Jefferson, just remember never

to turn them over. Just keep looking at the

obverse and you will be OK.

TwoSides2aCoin · November 5, 2007 5:38AM

<< With the Jefferson, just remember never

to turn them over. Just keep looking at the

obverse and you will be OK.

>>

... That's a fact, bear. A funny fact, but true.

Coinlearner · November 5, 2007 5:48AM

How about something else into the "mix", like what are the mintage breakdown, PF to UNC.

Think the proofs must have alot more mintage. I have not seen any numbers from mint as yet. I"m happy with my 2 coins. Prehaps buying the next one on aftermarket would be wise, depending on what the mint does.

Casman · November 5, 2007 6:10AM

Uh, it was 50/50, 20,000 of each. As I see it, 1 big flipper dominating the market with nonstop sales of NGC 70's depressed the MW and AA's and the effect simply carried over to the Jeff's and I expect the same on the Dollys as well.

ozzyfan269 · November 5, 2007 6:15AM

Are these worth sending off to PCGS for the grades?

BAJJERFAN · November 5, 2007 8:05AM

<< Are these worth sending off to PCGS for the grades? >>

At this point probably not unless you can get 70s.

cmerlo1 · November 5, 2007 8:11AM

I bought them hoping to flip them...I really liked them but couldn't afford to keep them. I am glad I got out when I did...

What went wrong with the Jefferson first spouse coin?

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