Morgan 1885 CC has 1885 P VAM 4A Obverse?

DuPapa · October 5, 2007 2:18PM

The one that’s confusing me most is a problem1885 CC . It’s either a Dash Under 8 or maybe a Doubled Dash depending on the light angle. I can’t easily see die clash indicators because of its condition. An indicator it does have is a die scratch which VamWorld attributes to the 1885 P which shows an obverse diagonal die scratch from 7th left star, but they don’t list it as an indicator for any of the 1885 CC’s. Did the mints share obverse dies or did VamWorld just not mention it as an indicator for CC?

Is it the same die scratch… or not?

blu62vette · October 5, 2007 2:20PM

Welcome!!! I cant help on VAMs but great pictures!! Looking forward to more!

options26 · October 5, 2007 2:38PM

I would say your correct, although I see more going on than just the vam 4A has listed. I would consider that a 4a at this point unless Leroy assigns a new number to it.

Wolf359 · October 5, 2007 2:56PM

Yes, 4A.

I'd be intersted if you have an 1878 VAM 14.5. Email or PM me please with details.

DuPapa · October 5, 2007 3:06PM

<< <i>I would say your correct, although I see more going on than just the vam 4A has listed. I would consider that a 4a at this point unless Leroy assigns a new number to it. >>

I saw no vam 4a listed for 85 CC. Do you think this might be a new kind?

Did the mint share their obverse dies. It seems odd that each mints strike would have such similar die scratches.

Is this the reverse clash that is mentioned on VamWorld. My now old eyes see nothing on their image of this area... in my photo there seems to be something above the wing and under the N

Wolf359 · October 5, 2007 4:04PM

Looks like a philly strike to me. I could be wrong, but I'd suspect somebody played with that coin and added the 'CC' mintmark.

BIGJAYVEE · October 5, 2007 7:14PM

DorkGirl · October 6, 2007 12:26AM

Great pics!! I hope Jack isn't right about the added CC..

It sure didn't tone the same as the rest of the coin.

DuPapa · October 6, 2007 2:25AM

Thanks all for the

's

If it is an added mint mark, it was done over 50 years ago because, like all our others, we've (Mom and I) have had the coin since the early sixties at the latest.
She says all the Morgans were aquired from circulatton. However, she is 97 years old and could be mis-remembering. She is still very sharp and I won't doubt my Mom.

Mom is enjoying the coins again and this has put the twinkle back in her eyes.
Here's a close-up view I just took of the mint mark. If it's an added mint mark someome was very good at it and has me fooled.

All Opinions are welcome.

DorkGirl · October 6, 2007 2:37AM

Your Mom got an 1885-cc in change? Tell her she is my new hero!!

More great pics and you are right, if the MM is fake, whoever did it was really good.

messydesk · October 6, 2007 2:46AM

I think added mintmark as well. Half the 85-CC mintage wasn't distributed until the GSA sale, making circulated 85-CCs rare. The obverse is definitely 1885-P VAM 4A. You could have an embossed mintmark. Look for signs of tampering with the edge of the coin closest to the mintmark.

Welcome to the forum!

DorkGirl · October 6, 2007 3:31AM

Now we need a pic of the rim under the MM. This is turning into a great learning tool. Thank you so much!! This is exactly the type of thread that helps everyone learn. I know it's got to leave a lump in your stomach, but if it really came from circulation, you are still OK.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 6, 2007 3:47AM

<< <i> ...Mom is enjoying the coins again and this has put the twinkle back in her eyes.

>>

I'm not a VAM picker or a VAM picker's son, but I'll pick on VAMs 'til the VAM pickers come.

It's great to read your mom likes coins, and welcome to the forums.

Joe

DuPapa · October 6, 2007 6:03AM

If someone would explain how a mint mark would be embossed and the "tells" that would be left as evidence of that procedure, I like to learn about them.

Here are those rim shots.

What's the verdict? I'll do more shots if you need them.

Wolf359 · October 6, 2007 7:24AM

The Fundamentals of Counterfeit detection - PCGS

Another form of alteration is the embossed mint mark. The results of this intricate process were first observed on Buffalo nickels. The counterfeiter would drill a hole through the edge of the coin in the area of the mint mark. From there, a raised mint mark would be embossed or created by inserting a pliers-like tool and squeezing the instrument. Presto: a mint mark!

The mintmark appears weakly struck, but the letters and wreath around it are not weakly struck. This is very unusual. Also, the color is incorrect as DorkGirl pointed out. Add in the fact the coin looks like a P mint strike (All mints for Morgan dollars can be distinguished from the obverse alone because of striking differences), actually has a VAM-4A die
gouge known only to Philadelphia coins, and so it's very suspicious, but not 100% conclusive.

You'd have to scope the edge and see if a hole has been repaired. It's usually very small and subtle.

AUandAG · October 6, 2007 9:35AM

First off, it's a real Carson City. I'd bet my biffy on that. Can't tell you about the VAM. However,
it is correct that most of todays examples are of the uncirculated GSA varitey (not a VAM). THere
are plenty of circulated examples out there and your Mother was just a tad lucky. I'd bet that this
coin was obtained in the western US. Silver dollars were most popular there and were in fact
used in normal commerce in NV, Mont, S and N Dak, parts of AZ and Lake Tahoe area of CA. They
did get elsewhere from folks visiting west and taking them home. Whatever, you will have tons of
fun going through them all!
Welcome to the Forum and stay in touch.
Oh, buy the way, your pics are great!

bob

Coxe · October 6, 2007 11:25AM

No way that is a CC. It is indeed the 1885 VAM-4A with an added mint mark. If this would have been just a matter of the dash and clash, there could be reasonable doubt. After all, as was pointed out, there is a clear delineation between the old, mainly circulated CCs and the vast hoard of GSA released ones. It is very possible that there are VAMs among the former that remain undocumented as they are not represented at all in the GSA group. However, that documented prominent die scratch seals the attribution to the Philly VAM.

coindeuce · October 6, 2007 12:36PM

Welcome DuPapa!! How about some pics of your '78 8TF VAM 14.5? You would have a great find there if correctly attributed. Only one coin has been graded Mint State by the major TPG's, so that should give you some perspective.

Morgan 1885 CC has 1885 P VAM 4A Obverse?

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