1809 is the twenty-seventh informative picture thread covering the Capped Bust Half Dollar series. S
cmanbb
Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
I could not find in any old post as to who would start the 1809 thread. If someone else was to start this thread, I apologize for stepping on your toes.
1809:
Mintage of 1,405,810 coins. It is the 11th lowest mintage of the regular 29 dates within the series.
There were 8 obverse dies, and 12 reverse dies producing 15 different varieties.
Typical strike for the 1809 is weak to good, although rarely fully struck.
An interesting feature about the 1809 CBH is the “experimental edges”.
They are as follows:
“FIFTY CENTS OR HALF A DOLLAR”
“DOLLAR XXXXXX FIFTY CENTS OR HALF”
“DOLLAR IIIII FIFTY CENTS OR IIIII HALF”
The 1809 Capped Bust Half was the first year in which there were design changes made to both obverse and reverse dies.
These changes were “sub design #2” used from 1809 through 1811.
This year also boasts many R4 & R5 varieties.
The piece shown here is an O-103 variety, graded AU58 by PCGS. The reverse strike really sucks,
but the coin displays an above average amount of luster for a circulated coin.
1809:
Mintage of 1,405,810 coins. It is the 11th lowest mintage of the regular 29 dates within the series.
There were 8 obverse dies, and 12 reverse dies producing 15 different varieties.
Typical strike for the 1809 is weak to good, although rarely fully struck.
An interesting feature about the 1809 CBH is the “experimental edges”.
They are as follows:
“FIFTY CENTS OR HALF A DOLLAR”
“DOLLAR XXXXXX FIFTY CENTS OR HALF”
“DOLLAR IIIII FIFTY CENTS OR IIIII HALF”
The 1809 Capped Bust Half was the first year in which there were design changes made to both obverse and reverse dies.
These changes were “sub design #2” used from 1809 through 1811.
This year also boasts many R4 & R5 varieties.
The piece shown here is an O-103 variety, graded AU58 by PCGS. The reverse strike really sucks,
but the coin displays an above average amount of luster for a circulated coin.
0
Comments
Here is the 1809 O-108 R4
It utilizes Obverse 5 and Reverse F-s2
Obv-18 is wider than 809, the curl is clear of the headband, a fine die crack on most specimens shows from the edge through the lower points of star 4.
Rev-a rough round lump is seen to the left of the curve of the C, arrowheads separated, AM lightly joined at the base, triple and quadruple rows of small segments embossed between the letters of AMERICA, arrow points and in the field between AMERICA and the right wing.
The obverse die that created your coin is still in existence. I have seen and examined it several times, and once set my 09 O.110 (same obverse) on the die and tried to seat it, but the die is now too worn. I have some pix buried on my hard drive, and will try again to remove them from the files they're in, and post them.
Edit- nice coins, guys!
O-106
This particular coin is a later die state but is not quite an O-109b. It has the large broken patches on the upper two arrowheads but not the die crack that continues all the way to above F.
The diagnostics for O-109a.
Obverse:18 wider then 809. Curl Clear of headband. S13 points toward curl.
Reverse: Die break through center of AMERICA. Small lumps around E and R. There appear to be parts of letters showing between MERI. Most specimens show raised segments between letters of AAMERICA which continue down from the last A along points of arrowheads.
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
Some diagnostics for 1809 O-102a R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Star 7 points to upper edge of dentil, and to lower edge of curl. Star 13 has a scalloped point, which nearly touches curl. Mouth is slightly open. On this LDS, a crack shows under date, another from top of “1” extends across bust, and through first four stars.
Reverse: “U” is recut, showing to the South. A row of uniform, pointed, segments show between scroll and eagle’s head. On this LDS, there is a crack at top of “UNITED STATES OF AMERICA”. “I” is centered under “T”. (Reverse is LDS of O-101.)
Link to all Capped Bust Half Dollar series threads
Some diagnostics for 1809 O-103 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to center of dentil. There are a number of tines off the inner points of many stars. The most obvious are star 5 showing the tine above, and stars 11 & 12 showing the tines below. Figures in date are set irregularly, “18” is wider than “809”, and “9” leans sharply right. (Obverse shared with O-104 and O-105.)
Reverse: “M” is rotated clockwise. A straight die line joins right base of “A” to upper left serif of “M”. A long diagonal defect line from corner of shield runs up into right wing. Arrowheads are heavily ribbed, and separated. Right sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
Note: This specimen is an unlisted LDS, showing a tiny crack from base of date, around to first few stars.
O-109b. III Edge
Premium Numismatics, Inc.
myurl
800-596-COIN
Premium Numismatics, Inc.
myurl
800-596-COIN
Premium Numismatics, Inc.
myurl
800-596-COIN
Some diagnostics for 1809 O-105 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to center of dentil. There are a number of tines off the inner points of many stars. The most obvious are star 5 showing the tine above, and stars 11 & 12 showing the tines below. Figures in date are set irregularly, “18” is wider than “809”, and “9” leans sharply right. (Obverse shared with O-103 and O-104.)
Reverse: Top of “U” is closed. Tiny die line joins tip of lowest leaf to dentils. Crack runs from left of “5” through olive leaves, and tops of “UNITED STATES OF A”. Left wing is usually weak. Right side of “I” is under left side of “T”.
Some diagnostics for 1809 O-109a R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Star 7 points to lower half of dentil, and to center of upper curl, with curl only slightly detached from headband, because this marriage occurred before O-108. (Obverse shared with O-108 and O-110.)
Reverse: On this LDS, a break shows through center of “AMERICA”. Embossed letters show between “AMERICA”, and continue down past lowest arrowhead. “I” is centered under left side of “T”.
Note: On the O-109b R4, the reverse break becomes larger, and a crack extends around to edge below left wing tip. Large broken patches show at upper two arrowheads.
Here is the "b" die state. What separates the "b" die state from the "a" die state is on the reverse the die break thru AMERICA gets heavier and shows broken patches at the arrowheads, this crack extends along the base of 50C and then across the tips of the leaves to the edge below the wing tip. The crack extends along the legend to above the F in OF.
For comparison, here is the crack thru AMERICA on the O-109a showing the raised segments at the arrowheads.
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
Join the NRA and protect YOUR right to keep and bear arms
To protest against all hunting of game is a sign of softness of head, not soundness of heart. Theodore Roosevelt
[L]http://www.ourfallensoldier.com/ThompsonMichaelE_MemorialPage.html[L]
I have been looking for an upgrade for this coin. At the same time I would hate to give up a coin from the Prouty collection.
If you find an 1809 Bustie with a recut U (showing at the bottom of the U) in UNITED, then you have either the rare O-101, the very scarce O-110 or the common O-102. This is because the reverse die A was used to strike these die marriages in this order. (The O-102 and O-110 almost always---but not always---have segments below the scroll.)
...so if you find an 1809 with the recut U at the bottom and with or without the segments, check the star to dentil diagnostics for a final attribution.
This die marriage was struck with obverse die 3. This die produced coins with tines off many of the stars---most noticeable going northeast from the inner point of Star 5.
Obverse die 3 was used to strike the rare O-104, then the slightly common O-105 and finally the common O-103. ...so if you find a Bustie with the tine just above the inner point of Star 5, then you have one of these three die marriages. (...but still double check the other diagnostics.)
Easy to tell the O-104 from the others. The right edge of the scroll on the O-104 is under the lower left serif of the M in AMERICA. On the other two die marrages it is under the first A in AMERICA.
This die marriage was struck using reverse die F. Die F was first used to strike O-107 and then O-108.
This die produced coins with rough die mounds between the 0 and C of 50 C.
Find these die mounds and you have the O-107 or the O-108. On the O-107 the upper curl touches the headband. On the O-108 it is clear of the headband.
This later die state of the O-107 die marriage has a die crack near Stars 11, 12, & 13.
You will also find small triple and quadruple rows of segments in AMERICA and the field between AMERICA and the right wing. I think you will see a hint of these in the scan.
I had a heck of a time finding this die marriage.
I found this coin by accident advertised in a small Midwest auction. It was "raw," but attibuted as the O-110. I bid on the coin and won it, sight unseen. I was pleasantly surprised when it finally arrived at its new home (mine). Sometimes you roll the dice and win !
This is the final use of obverse die 5-s2. Easy to spot with the sexy die break at Star 4.
Just like on the O-101 and O-102, this die marriage has the U in UNITED broadly recut at the bottom. There is a row of segments below the scroll just above the eagle's head. (Note: there are an estimated 4 to 8 specimens known without this row of segements.)
The diagnostic for this die marriage is the die line crossing the drapery below the clasp just to the left of the lowest curl.
Yep, even my late die state O-111a has a few scratches.
Notice the diagnostic die line just to the left of the lowest curl at the drapery?
The O-111a has die cracks at ED S ATE and at A3.
This is the first use of obverse die 7. In order, this die was used to strike the rare O-112, then the rare O-113, then the rare O-114 and then the slightly common O-115.
On the O-112, O-113, O-114 (and the O-105) the I of PLURBIS is to the left of T2 in STATES.
The O-112 has the widest gap between the 0 and the C of 50 C. Note the postion on the 5 under the left claws in relationship the its positon on the O-113 and the O-114. Hold your magnifer over the pictures in the O/P book and you will clearly see the difference.
The position of the 5 under the left claws on the O-112 is similar on the O-115. But on the O-112 the tip of the olive branch is over the center of the stand of the C below it. On the O-115 it is over the right edge of the stand of the C below it.
The second use of obverse die 7.
Usually the extensive die crack through the entire legend is a give away for this die marriage. But always check the other diagnostics, because the early die state of this die marrage has no die cracks.
Another example of the O-113 die marriage with its typical weakly struck left wing and eagle's head.
The late die state O-113a has additional reverse die cracks---many, but not all, can be seen in this scan.
Additional cracks run from edge at lowest arrowhead through 50 C to edge below center pair of leaves. Another crack from lowest left pair of leaves across feathers, shield, neck, scroll and connects to the primary crack (seen on the O-113) left of S2.
This is a somewhat crusty example of the late die state of the O-114 die marriage. It is the O-114a. (I have not been able to locate an affordable---to my budget---O-114 for my collection.)
The O-114a is known for its weakly struck chin on the portrait.
The reverse has several die cracks that you may not be able to see in the scan. The extensive die cracks are listed in the O/P books. The easiest one to see on this coin is the one that runs from the center left edge of the tail feathers to upper right side of the bottom of the left wing.
SIDENOTE: The weakly struck chin is not always a diagnostic for this coin. I have currently a duplicate (to be traded away at the Santa Clara show on 4/19/07) EF 1809 O-105 that is such a weakly struck coin that not only is the leaf wing and eagle's head almost flat, but the portrait has no chin and neck. I verified that this was the case (and not a problem coin other than hairlines) after sending scans to Souders for confirmation.
This is the last use of the obverse die 7 used to strike the O-112, O-113, O-114 and finally the O-115.
Unlike the other die marriages struck with die 7, the O-115 has the right side of the D in line with the left serifs of the E.
This late die state of the O-115 die marriage has additional obverse die cracks. One runs just above the 0 horizontally above the 8 through the top of the 1 and into the fields below the drapery---on this scan you will see it to the left of the upper left stand of the 1. A second die crack crosses the end of the bust and joins the first four stars on the left---on this scan you will see it running from the bust to the lower point of star 1. A third die crack runs from the edge through star 6 to to the upper forecurl and LIBERTY---you will see it on the scan.
The reverse of late die state has no milling, the legend is flat and drawn heavily to the flat smooth edge. Compare this reverse to the reverse of the O-115 that I previously posted---they are similar, but not quite the same.
When Ed talks about Capped Bust Half Dollars, it is best to listen and learn.
On page 1 of the 1809 Thread I had posted the O-104.
I decided to trade it in this weekend for a higher graded specimen. Unfortunately I had to pay a buck or two more just to get the seller to take the old coin. At first he was not interested in the lower grade one. He claimed his customer base wanted higher graded circulated coins. I KNOW he was telling the truth. ...but I am very good at whining and begging and bribing..
What a difference 40 or 50 years of wear can make.
My new coin still has the typical poorly struck left wing and eagle's head.
Photos of the "new" 1809 O-104, R5-:
Some diagnostics for 1809 O-111' R4 (Marriage is only R2.):
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. A very obvious curved die mark shows in the drapery just left of the lowest curl. Milling is usually weak, or missing altogether.
Reverse: “A” and “M” are joined. “50 C” is low. Stand of “E” in scroll is centered under stand of “D”. Centering dot shows on crossbar 5 at left. Milling is usually missing. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
Note: This specimen is an unlisted EDS, with full dentils.
On the first page of this Thread AU58WALKERS posted a beautiful example of the 1809 O-106 die marriage. On his coin you can clearly see the die crack running from Star 4 to Star 6. The rest of the die crack running through the stars on the left was probably too light to be seen in the photo.
Regarding die cracks on this die marriage, the O/P book states that on the obverse "Most specimens show a die crack joining all stars on (the) left." No die crack is mentioned to be on the reverse.
I have often wondered what Al Overton meant when he used the word "most" in his description. Is most 51% or more? Is it 98%? etc.
This die marriage was struck using obverse die 8 and reverse die E. These dies were only used on this die marriage.
Because of the presence of a die crack on this obverse die and because of no subsquent die usage, one can presume that the die(s) broke up during the striking of the O-106 and could not be used to strike any other die marriage.
This "one use only because of die break up " is supported by the study of this die marriage's die states. Students of Bust Half die states report of 4 distinct subvarieties. You can visualize the break up of the die(s) by reading the list of reported die states. These subvarieties are as follows:
(a) The Very Early Die State (VEDS, aka Prime). No die cracks on the obverse.
(b) A die crack through the stars on the left.
(c) The die crack through the left stars is heavier and a die crack appears on the reverse from D to ST.
(d) Same as (c) above with a die cud appearing at the bust.
This list explains why Overton used the word "most" in the die crack description in his book. A survey of how many specimens exist of each die state would surely be impossible to under take.
In looking at the O-106 that AU58WALKERS posted on page 1 of this Thread, I can see the obverse die crack, but I cannot tell if the reverse die crack is there. His coin is either the second or third subvariety.
If you own an 1809 O-106 you might want to take another look at your coin. What stage of die break up were the dies in when your coin was struck?
I own only one example of the O-106. I don't know if I am lucky or not, because I do not know which, if any, subvariety is rare or which, if any, subvariety is common. ...but the die marriage as a whole is rated as scarce.
I have never seen an example of the subvariety with the die cud at the bust. If one you have this subvariety, please post its pictures in the Forum.
My set piece is the O-106 Prime. No die cracks are on the coin.
Photos of my 1809 O-106, R3 Set Piece:
Edgar
Edgar
Steve Herrman has recorded 5 pieces to date, in his popular AMBPR for Bust Half Dollars 1794 - 1836. (A must have for those chasing CBH's). I know of 4 others aside from the 5 reported pieces in Steve's AMBPR bringing the total up to about 10 pieces. Probably a third of these have problems (scratches, burnishing, etc.). Interesting piece! Keep your eye out for one!
Edgar
Edgar
Some diagnostics for 1809 O-108 R4:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Star 7 points to lower half of dentil, and to center of upper curl, with curl fully clear of headband. On O-109, the curl is not so far removed from the headband, because this marriage occurred after O-109. (Obverse shared with O-109 and O-110.)
Reverse: A series of dots show between 0 and C. A and M are even and joined at base. Segments are embossed in field under MERICA. Left sides of I and T are in line. (Reverse is LDS of O-107.)
CoinAddict posted his O-109a, R2 and prenum his O-109b, R4 on page 1 of this Thread.
Unlike the later die states of this die marriage, the O-109 does NOT have the die crack running through the word AMERICA.
The O/P book advises that "most" specimens have "a die crack from edge through lower points of star 4..." The coin I am picturing does NOT have this die crack.
Photos of my 1809 O-109, R4:
The III Edge before the word HALF on the edge:
Both of their coins have a flatly struck left wing.
This shows that just because some coins of a specfic die marriage have a flatly struck left wing, this does not mean that ALL of the coins of this DM will have a weak left wing.
Here is my 1809 O-105 with the left wing fairly well struck:
Both coins are supposed to be AU-55.
Which one do I keep? Which one do I sell or trade?
Please read this forum posting: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=609426
(I don't know how to turn this URL into a "Link," or I would.)
I have my opinion already. But I do know that two brains or more are smarter than my one brain.
Therefore, please post your opinons and comments on the URL listed above.
Regards,
Ed R.
It's the http link in the tool bar
Forum Link
Mike...
Nice looking O-106, R3.
Thank you for posting.
Ed R.
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series. You brought the number of contributing members to 143.
Al
Well, it sure is awfully darn shiny.
...and that die crack through the left stars of this O-106, R3 means it's not perfect.
It is so well struck that it would make my 1809's look pretty shabby.
...but you might be able to talk me into taking it off your hands.
But wait! (a pondering silent pause follows)
It is a little intimidating though.
If I put it in my Bustie Harem, it would expect to be the Queen of the Harem. I don't think my other ladies in the Harem would be too happy.
Let me think about it. I wonder... (another pondering silent pause combined with a questioning stare)
...perhaps you should hang onto it for a while.
Bye (while I ponder some more),
Ed R.
How about a 113'?
You ask:
Does anyone have a 101a w/crack thru stars at left? No. I don't have this one.
How about a 103a w/crack from date to stars? Not this one either.
Or a 105' w/no reverse cracks and fully struck wing? Nor this one.
How about a 113'? Nope, if you mean an O-113 Prime without reverse die cracks.
Regards,
Ed R.