While everybody is focusing on things such as grade in the title and images in the auction, the real key element of the new policy is being overlooked. That key element is the requirement to fill in the item specifics.
The goal, which will take some time to achieve, is for bidders to be able to very narrowly define their searches using item specifics - similar to the way it's done in clothing and watches. Once this goal is achieved, the junk slabs won't even show up for the bidder unless said bidder wants them to.
<< <i>I don't know that I've seen a single person CORRECTLY interpret anything posted about the new ebay rules. You people and your misinformation. When is it going to stop?
edit - virtually any listing includes photos of the coin in its graded holder. Where does it say the photo MUST show the label? The way I read it, one enters that info in the form data of the listing, not necessarily a photo of the label. Full-slab photos? I don't read that. >>
<< <i>The listing must include an image of the item, showing the coin in its graded holder, front and back. >>
You can sit there all day long and try and pick fly $hit out of pepper but it is clear to most that read the above rule that the label has to show. If you want all the legal terminology I suggest you call or write Ebay for a copy of their "official policy".
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>It's going to be interesting to see how you list more then one slab in a listing? >>
I've been trying to get an explaination of why they need the reverse of the slab in the listing but all my account rep will tell me is: "T&S is not giving that information out right now". It sounds like they don't even know why they need the reverse slab pic either. I bet that within a month, it'll just be the obverse (Unless it's an ANACS slab - Genius idea to put the cert # on the back. ). >>
PCGS coins have cert number on back when they have a special label like the presidential labels. --Jerry >>
Yes, what I'm saying is that the side with the pertinent information that one would need to verify it is actually a real certified coin is really the only side of the slab needed. Both sides is a bit overzealous.
The ANA input was indeed for real. (Links below.) I like the matter-of-fact writing of this press release. If you have a coin slabbed by a company where the broad consensus is that their work is "Poor," you need to either cross the coin... or put your money where your plastic is and list it as "uncertified." I don't see a problem anywhere near as significant as the disgusting state of affairs with "certified" coins on ebay today. January 5, 2007
PNG, ICTA Announce Results
of 2006 Grading Services Survey
(Orlando, FL) – The Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) and the Industry Council For Tangible Assets (ICTA) have jointly released results of their third dealer’s survey of rare coin authentication and grading services. The survey indicates the professional opinions of numismatists who buy and sell coins for a living.
Survey respondents were asked for their professional opinions to evaluate eleven grading services based on 12 different weighted criteria, such as grading and authentication accuracy. Each category was ranked by the respondents on a ten-point scale ranging from the lowest, Unacceptable, to the highest, Outstanding.
The final tally lists no grading service as “Outstanding."
Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America (NGC) of Sarasota, Florida and Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) of Newport Beach, California were rated, "Superior."
ANACS of Austin, TX and Independent Coin Grading Company (ICG) of Englewood, Colorado were ranked "Good."
PCI, Inc. (PCI) of Rossville, Georgia and Sovereign Entities Grading Service (SEGS) of Chattanooga, Tennessee were listed as "Poor."
ASA-Accugrade, Inc. (ACG) of Longwood, Florida, Numistrust Corporation (NTC) of Boca Raton, Florida, Hallmark Coin Grading Service (HCGS) of Vancouver, BC, Canada, American Coin Club Grading Service (ACCGS) of Beverly Hills, CA, and Star Grading Services (SGS) of Bellville, OH. were listed as "Unacceptable."
They've been lackluster on enforcing the rules in the past...I don't think this will make any difference. But then again, I'm biased.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>While everybody is focusing on things such as grade in the title and images in the auction, the real key element of the new policy is being overlooked. That key element is the requirement to fill in the item specifics.
The goal, which will take some time to achieve, is for bidders to be able to very narrowly define their searches using item specifics - similar to the way it's done in clothing and watches. Once this goal is achieved, the junk slabs won't even show up for the bidder unless said bidder wants them to.
Russ, NCNE >>
As a bidder using the saved search module to screen out the chaff, under the new rules taking " VF*" "EF*" "XF*" etc. out of my saved searches for raw coins (listing only, not description), it seems like now this is pointless. I might as well look at every single listing. Any suggestions?
Do your best to avoid circular arguments, as it will help you reason better, because better reasoning is often a result of avoiding circular arguments.
You people are MISINTERPRETING eBay statements of their new policy.
That leads to MISINFORMATION.
My photos have always shown the coin in its "graded holder." eBay is smart enough to know that a picture of a slabbed coin from a distance far enough to show a label is too far to show the coin well enough for most buyers. They are not, or they haven't yet, worded their statement to make me think I must show the entire slab. eBay may be smart enough in some respects, but they are also dumb enough in many other respects. Are they dumb enough to improperly word a new directive concerning auction requirements?
Misinformation is just that, misinformation. No good, no bad, just misinformation.
If one can read (and follow) correct instructions, why does one need to know about "it"? The trick is getting the correct instructions. That's what I'm trying for here gang. That's it.
edit - Can you imagine us all on CNN "discussing" our point? lmao
Just got off the phone with my account rep. The "resident coin expert" walked by and he grabbed him to answer some questions. Here is what I was told and I believe it is correct:
1. For multiple listings of slabbed coins where all that is different is the serial number (in ebay's eyes), only two pictures are required, one of the front slab and one of the rear slab of one of the coins. Language in your auction that the 10 coins are the same except for serial number is a good idea.
2. Dutch auctions: Same rules.
3. Even for coins with no info on the reverse Ebay wants to see a photo of the reverse slab so that it is clear no info has been omitted.
4. Presales: they're still thinking about what to do about presales where a photo of the slab is not available. (I know some of you think presales are sleazy but as long as they're legal I'll compete for sales in them and my perfect feedback and PCGS sales record helps me compete quite well).
eBay Launches New Policy Within its Coins Category
ANA Applauds eBay Fraud Prevention Efforts
Yesterday, eBay launched a new policy in its Coins Category, which will ensure that any coins listed as certified must be certified by one of four grading companies.
"The ANA supports this effort to improve consumer protection for people buying and selling coins on eBay," said ANA President Barry Stuppler. "Although the ANA is not responsible for this policy, we support any effort to reduce the potential for fraud and to help safeguard the coin-collecting hobby."
The ANA has worked with eBay since September 2004, and through the Coins Community Watch group has assisted eBay in identifying misrepresented or fraudulent listings in the on-line auction company's coins category. During this period, the ANA emphasized to eBay the need to establish regulations designed to minimize the opportunity for consumer fraud.
"In order for consumer fraud to occur, three elements must be present: a person's desire, ability and opportunity to commit the fraud," said ANA Consumer Awareness Coordinator Susan McMillan, "We cannot control a person's desire or ability, but we can try to remove the opportunity."
In February 2007, eBay approached ANA for input on how best to address the issue of fraudulent grading and authenticating. The ANA provided eBay with input on possible guidelines and also provided them with the results of the PNG/ICTA 2006 Grading Services Survey.
In August, after much deliberation, the ANA recommended that eBay only go forward with the policy change if eBay would use the results of the PNG, ICTA 2006 Grading Service Survey. View the results of that survey at: http://www.pngdealers.com/public/pressreleases.cfm?article=47
"Ultimately, eBay's determination on which grading services would qualify for the certified classification was solely an internal eBay policy decision," said ANA Acting Executive Director Kenneth Hallenbeck.
According to the new eBay policy, which eBay officials say is intended to improve buyer confidence, any listing of a "certified" coin must be certified by one of the following companies: Numismatic Guaranty Corp./Numismatic Conservation Services (NGC/NCS), Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), Independent Coin Grading (ICG), or ANACS.
Sellers will still be permitted to list coins graded by other grading services in other coin categories as long as they follow certain conditions.
Enforcement of the new policy may not be immediate as eBay works to make sure everything is running correctly. For additional information regarding the implementation of this policy please go to the eBay policy page referenced above or go to these pages on the eBay site:
The American Numismatic Association is a nonprofit organization dedicated to educating and encouraging people to study and collect money and related items. With nearly 32,000 members, the Association serves the academic community, collectors and the general public with an interest in numismatics. The ANA helps all people discover and explore the world of money through its vast array of programs including its education and outreach, museum, library, publications, conventions and seminars. For more information about the ANA, call 719-632-2646 or visit www.money.org.
I understand there are many auctions and thousands of customers but why can't they just "unplug" undesirable TPG just after they post? It would certainly get their attention and they would eventually give up! The photos and posting takes up much energy for honest folks. It seems Ebay would make more $ simply by hiring staff to unplug scammers with certain TPG items.
Wouldn't take but about a month before the bad TPG's wouldn't have anymore business, if you can't sell them no one will buy them.
hubird wrote: They are not, or they haven't yet, worded their statement to make me think I must show the entire slab.
From my account rep when I asked if both the entire front and back of the slabs had to be shown:
Yes, under the policy both the front and back of the slab must be shown on the listing. The reasons for showing both the front and back of the slab isn't related to being able to see the pertinent certification information. There are other reasons for requiring this.
I responded with:
If the reverse needs to be shown, that's a little (actually alot) overzealous. How lax will eBay be regarding this if sellers like me have the "pertinent" information shown with the obverse shot of the slab in every listing?
To which they responded:
eBay isn't going to be at all lax; therefore, you will need to show both sides of the slab. The 'pertinent' information you're referring to that shows on the front side of the slab is not the reason Trust and Safety wants to see the back of the slab. As I mentioned in the previous email, there are other reasons for wanting to see the back of the slab.
I then responded with:
I did get the email but there was no explanation of "why" the reverse of the slab is needed as you indicated in your last email. Here is what that other email said about slab images:
* The listing must include an image of the item, showing the coin in its graded holder, front and back. If the coin listed is not certified by one of the above authorized grading companies, the coin is considered raw/uncertified and is subject to additional requirements for their sale.
I'm just not seeing "why" the reverse needs to be listed in addition to the front since all of the pertinent information to verify it is a certified coin is on the front of the slab. I'm just trying to think of a situation where the reverse of the slab would even be needed if there was already an image of the reverse of the coin already in the listing.
I appreciate your time and an explanation about this reverse slab pic rule.
Then they responded with:
The reason there is no explanation as to why you must show a photo of the front and back of the slab is because we're not giving out that information right now.
As far as how long you have to take pictures of the backs of the slabs, you should be fine this week. We just need to see you're making progress and that there are some of your new listings showing the backs of the slabs as you list this week.
<< <i>The reason there is no explanation as to why you must show a photo of the front and back of the slab is because we're not giving out that information right now. >>
<< <i>The reason there is no explanation as to why you must show a photo of the front and back of the slab is because we're not giving out that information right now. >>
Translation:
I actually have no clue why.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's what I thought and why I figure they'll just require the obverse of the slabs (reverse for any that have the cert on the reverse) eventually after figuring out that it's completely pointless to require the reverse of the slab to be shown. I'm thinking they were considering of all the extra picture fees from folks who don't have a clue about remote hosting.
<< <i>BTW, for those who use Turbo Lister there is an update available that accomodates the new policy requirements related to item specifics. >>
Russ, I'm a computer dummy: If i update my turbo lister will all my data (inventory/waiting to upload) remain intact. I'd sure hate to lose it. Thanks.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i><< BTW, for those who use Turbo Lister there is an update available that accomodates the new policy requirements related to item specifics. >>
Russ, I'm a computer dummy: If i update my turbo lister will all my data (inventory/waiting to upload) remain intact. I'd sure hate to lose it. Thanks >>
Your data will be fine. It's always a good idea to back it up first whenever you update TL, though.
Comments
The goal, which will take some time to achieve, is for bidders to be able to very narrowly define their searches using item specifics - similar to the way it's done in clothing and watches. Once this goal is achieved, the junk slabs won't even show up for the bidder unless said bidder wants them to.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I don't know that I've seen a single person CORRECTLY interpret anything posted about the new ebay rules.
You people and your misinformation. When is it going to stop?
edit - virtually any listing includes photos of the coin in its graded holder. Where does it say the photo MUST show the label? The way I read it, one enters that info in the form data of the listing, not necessarily a photo of the label. Full-slab photos? I don't read that. >>
<< <i>The listing must include an image of the item, showing the coin in its graded holder, front and back. >>
You can sit there all day long and try and pick fly $hit out of pepper but it is clear to most that read the above rule that the label has to show. If you want all the legal terminology I suggest you call or write Ebay for a copy of their "official policy".
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
SM
SPMC - J-12338
McDCCC - Charter Member
Announcing: The Numismatic Enquirer - Website
<< <i>So, no more Counterfeit coins on ebay!
New rule has nothing to do with raw coins so you can still have your counterfeits.
<< <i>
<< <i>So, no more Counterfeit coins on ebay!
New rule has nothing to do with raw coins so you can still have your counterfeits. >>
Oh, well that makes me
SM
SPMC - J-12338
McDCCC - Charter Member
Announcing: The Numismatic Enquirer - Website
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's going to be interesting to see how you list more then one slab in a listing? >>
I've been trying to get an explaination of why they need the reverse of the slab in the listing but all my account rep will tell me is: "T&S is not giving that information out right now".
PCGS coins have cert number on back when they have a special label like the presidential labels. --Jerry >>
Yes, what I'm saying is that the side with the pertinent information that one would need to verify it is actually a real certified coin is really the only side of the slab needed. Both sides is a bit overzealous.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
January 5, 2007
PNG, ICTA Announce Results
of 2006 Grading Services Survey
(Orlando, FL) – The Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG) and the Industry Council For Tangible Assets (ICTA) have jointly released results of their third dealer’s survey of rare coin authentication and grading services. The survey indicates the professional opinions of numismatists who buy and sell coins for a living.
Survey respondents were asked for their professional opinions to evaluate eleven grading services based on 12 different weighted criteria, such as grading and authentication accuracy. Each category was ranked by the respondents on a ten-point scale ranging from the lowest, Unacceptable, to the highest, Outstanding.
The final tally lists no grading service as “Outstanding."
Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America (NGC) of Sarasota, Florida and Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) of Newport Beach, California were rated, "Superior."
ANACS of Austin, TX and Independent Coin Grading Company (ICG) of Englewood, Colorado were ranked "Good."
PCI, Inc. (PCI) of Rossville, Georgia and Sovereign Entities Grading Service (SEGS) of Chattanooga, Tennessee were listed as "Poor."
ASA-Accugrade, Inc. (ACG) of Longwood, Florida, Numistrust Corporation (NTC) of Boca Raton, Florida, Hallmark Coin Grading Service (HCGS) of Vancouver, BC, Canada, American Coin Club Grading Service (ACCGS) of Beverly Hills, CA, and Star Grading Services (SGS) of Bellville, OH. were listed as "Unacceptable."
Today's release verifying ANA role
Source for text above
<< <i>While everybody is focusing on things such as grade in the title and images in the auction, the real key element of the new policy is being overlooked. That key element is the requirement to fill in the item specifics.
The goal, which will take some time to achieve, is for bidders to be able to very narrowly define their searches using item specifics - similar to the way it's done in clothing and watches. Once this goal is achieved, the junk slabs won't even show up for the bidder unless said bidder wants them to.
Russ, NCNE >>
As a bidder using the saved search module to screen out the chaff, under the new rules taking " VF*" "EF*" "XF*" etc. out of my saved searches for raw coins (listing only, not description), it seems like now this is pointless. I might as well look at every single listing. Any suggestions?
You people are MISINTERPRETING eBay statements of their new policy.
That leads to MISINFORMATION.
My photos have always shown the coin in its "graded holder." eBay is smart enough to know that a picture of a slabbed coin from a distance far enough to show a label is too far to show the coin well enough for most buyers. They are not, or they haven't yet, worded their statement to make me think I must show the entire slab. eBay may be smart enough in some respects, but they are also dumb enough in many other respects. Are they dumb enough to improperly word a new directive concerning auction requirements?
Misinformation is just that, misinformation. No good, no bad, just misinformation.
<< <i>Still more misinformation.
You people are MISINTERPRETING eBay statements of their new policy. >>
No, we aren't. I will guarantee you that the requirement is an image of the entire slab.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Misinformation is just that, misinformation. No good, no bad, just misinformation. >>
You seem to know a lot about it.
edit - Can you imagine us all on CNN "discussing" our point? lmao
1. For multiple listings of slabbed coins where all that is different is the serial number (in ebay's eyes), only two pictures are required, one of the front slab and one of the rear slab of one of the coins. Language in your auction that the 10 coins are the same except for serial number is a good idea.
2. Dutch auctions: Same rules.
3. Even for coins with no info on the reverse Ebay wants to see a photo of the reverse slab so that it is clear no info has been omitted.
4. Presales: they're still thinking about what to do about presales where a photo of the slab is not available. (I know some of you think presales are sleazy but as long as they're legal I'll compete for sales in them and my perfect feedback and PCGS sales record helps me compete quite well).
--Jerry
NEWS
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: September 18, 2007
CONTACT: Jay Beeton
Telephone: 719-482-9864
E-mail: pr@money.org
eBay Launches New Policy Within its Coins Category
ANA Applauds eBay Fraud Prevention Efforts
Yesterday, eBay launched a new policy in its Coins Category, which will ensure that any coins listed as certified must be certified by one of four grading companies.
"The ANA supports this effort to improve consumer protection for people buying and selling coins on eBay," said ANA President Barry Stuppler. "Although the ANA is not responsible for this policy, we support any effort to reduce the potential for fraud and to help safeguard the coin-collecting hobby."
The ANA has worked with eBay since September 2004, and through the Coins Community Watch group has assisted eBay in identifying misrepresented or fraudulent listings in the on-line auction company's coins category. During this period, the ANA emphasized to eBay the need to establish regulations designed to minimize the opportunity for consumer fraud.
"In order for consumer fraud to occur, three elements must be present: a person's desire, ability and opportunity to commit the fraud," said ANA Consumer Awareness Coordinator Susan McMillan, "We cannot control a person's desire or ability, but we can try to remove the opportunity."
In February 2007, eBay approached ANA for input on how best to address the issue of fraudulent grading and authenticating. The ANA provided eBay with input on possible guidelines and also provided them with the results of the PNG/ICTA 2006 Grading Services Survey.
In August, after much deliberation, the ANA recommended that eBay only go forward with the policy change if eBay would use the results of the PNG, ICTA 2006 Grading Service Survey. View the results of that survey at: http://www.pngdealers.com/public/pressreleases.cfm?article=47
"Ultimately, eBay's determination on which grading services would qualify for the certified classification was solely an internal eBay policy decision," said ANA Acting Executive Director Kenneth Hallenbeck.
According to the new eBay policy, which eBay officials say is intended to improve buyer confidence, any listing of a "certified" coin must be certified by one of the following companies: Numismatic Guaranty Corp./Numismatic Conservation Services (NGC/NCS), Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), Independent Coin Grading (ICG), or ANACS.
Sellers will still be permitted to list coins graded by other grading services in other coin categories as long as they follow certain conditions.
Detailed requirements for listing certified coins can be accessed under the "Some Examples" section of eBay's "Selling Coins and Currency" policy page: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html
Enforcement of the new policy may not be immediate as eBay works to make sure everything is running correctly. For additional information regarding the implementation of this policy please go to the eBay policy page referenced above or go to these pages on the eBay site:
eBay's Coins & Paper Money Discussion Board: http://forums.ebay.com/db1/forum.jspa?forumID=8
eBay's Security & Resolution Center: http://pages.ebay.com/securitycenter/index.html?_trksid=m40
The American Numismatic Association is a nonprofit organization dedicated to educating and encouraging people to study and collect money and related items. With nearly 32,000 members, the Association serves the academic community, collectors and the general public with an interest in numismatics. The ANA helps all people discover and explore the world of money through its vast array of programs including its education and outreach, museum, library, publications, conventions and seminars. For more information about the ANA, call 719-632-2646 or visit www.money.org.
I understand there are many auctions and thousands of customers but why can't they just "unplug" undesirable TPG just after they post?
It would certainly get their attention and they would eventually give up! The photos and posting takes up much energy for honest folks. It seems Ebay would make more $ simply by hiring staff to unplug scammers with certain TPG items.
Wouldn't take but about a month before the bad TPG's wouldn't have anymore business, if you can't sell them no one will buy them.
From my account rep when I asked if both the entire front and back of the slabs had to be shown:
Yes, under the policy both the front and back of the slab must be shown on the listing. The reasons for showing both the front and back of the slab isn't related to being able to see the pertinent certification information. There are other reasons for requiring this.
I responded with:
If the reverse needs to be shown, that's a little (actually alot) overzealous. How lax will eBay be regarding this if sellers like me have the "pertinent" information shown with the obverse shot of the slab in every listing?
To which they responded:
eBay isn't going to be at all lax; therefore, you will need to show both sides of the slab. The 'pertinent' information you're referring to that shows on the front side of the slab is not the reason Trust and Safety wants to see the back of the slab. As I mentioned in the previous email, there are other reasons for wanting to see the back of the slab.
I then responded with:
I did get the email but there was no explanation of "why" the reverse of the slab is needed as you indicated in your last email. Here is what that other email said about slab images:
* The listing must include an image of the item, showing the coin in its graded holder, front and back. If the coin listed is not certified by one of the above authorized grading companies, the coin is considered raw/uncertified and is subject to additional requirements for their sale.
I'm just not seeing "why" the reverse needs to be listed in addition to the front since all of the pertinent information to verify it is a certified coin is on the front of the slab. I'm just trying to think of a situation where the reverse of the slab would even be needed if there was already an image of the reverse of the coin already in the listing.
I appreciate your time and an explanation about this reverse slab pic rule.
Then they responded with:
The reason there is no explanation as to why you must show a photo of the front and back of the slab is because we're not giving out that information right now.
As far as how long you have to take pictures of the backs of the slabs, you should be fine this week. We just need to see you're making progress and that there are some of your new listings showing the backs of the slabs as you list this week.
<< <i>The reason there is no explanation as to why you must show a photo of the front and back of the slab is because we're not giving out that information right now. >>
Translation:
I actually have no clue why.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>The reason there is no explanation as to why you must show a photo of the front and back of the slab is because we're not giving out that information right now. >>
Translation:
I actually have no clue why.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's what I thought and why I figure they'll just require the obverse of the slabs (reverse for any that have the cert on the reverse) eventually after figuring out that it's completely pointless to require the reverse of the slab to be shown. I'm thinking they were considering of all the extra picture fees from folks who don't have a clue about remote hosting.
<< <i>BTW, for those who use Turbo Lister there is an update available that accomodates the new policy requirements related to item specifics. >>
Russ, I'm a computer dummy: If i update my turbo lister will all my data (inventory/waiting to upload) remain intact. I'd sure hate to lose it. Thanks.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Let's see how this plays out.
I agree though, it's a step in the right direction.
John
WTB: Barber Quarters XF
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
My collection of NGC Shipwreck effect coins is still safe. Yahoo.
roadrunner
<< <i><< BTW, for those who use Turbo Lister there is an update available that accomodates the new policy requirements related to item specifics. >>
Russ, I'm a computer dummy: If i update my turbo lister will all my data (inventory/waiting to upload) remain intact. I'd sure hate to lose it. Thanks >>
Your data will be fine. It's always a good idea to back it up first whenever you update TL, though.
Russ, NCNE
I would be even happier of ONLY!! PCGS holdered coins could include reference to PCGS Price Guide.
Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>how did NCS have the clout to make this list? >>
" Legal " Coin Doctor? Cleaned coins are OK if you pay them to do it? They should be the equivalent of a PCI red label.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>Too bad they don't require good pics of the obverse and reverse on RAW coins. >>
The market should take care of that--coins without good photos should sell for much less. --Jerry