Is it right to use PCGS's buyback policy for Silver Eagles that are known to milkspot?

pcgs69 · September 3, 2007 12:15PM

It almost doesn't seem right to unload milkspot coins on PCGS because of its solid buyback policy. I suppose the number of coins returned will be low compared to the revenue from grading, but should people have the liberty to take advantage of the PCGS policy?

commoncents05 · September 3, 2007 12:17PM

I think that if they occur to all silver eagles, it would be wrong, but it seems that it only happens in PCGS holders, so I think it's ok.

-Paul

Zoins · September 3, 2007 12:22PM

You might as well ask if it's right for PCGS to slab Silver Eagles that are known to milkspot?

PCGS is certainly aware of the milkspotting issue which is the reason why they don't give out MS70s. If PCGS continues to slab coins that are known to milkspot and accept them under their buyback policy, why shouldn't you take advantage of it?

Bochiman · September 3, 2007 12:23PM

<< It almost doesn't seem right to unload milkspot coins on PCGS because of its solid buyback policy. I suppose the number of coins returned will be low compared to the revenue from grading, but should people have the liberty to take advantage of the PCGS policy? >>

You're joking, right?

ozzyfan269 · September 3, 2007 12:26PM

Well, one thing is for sure, these reverse proof ASEs are getting rarer and rarer as more and more are getting spoiled by spotting. I have a few in PCGS holders @ PR69. No spots so far I wonder what the chances are that they will develop spots?

Bochiman · September 3, 2007 12:31PM

Ya know, Ozzyfan, you're right....it is kind of an attrition....makes me wonder what PCGS does with them when they buy them back

Do they turn around and wholesale them, at which point someone likely cracks them out (if they are slabbed still...like PR67 or whatnot) and sticks them in a "set" to be sold, are they melted, or, are they handed out as a Christmas bonus?

GRANDAM · September 3, 2007 1:32PM

<< but it seems that it only happens in PCGS holders >>

WRONG!!!!!!!!

Milk Spotting DOES NOT just occur in PCGS Holders. PCGS Holders have nothing to do with it. It occurs in raw coins as well. I had 5 raw sets that I got TIRED of replacing coins in. EVERY year when I got them out of the safe deposit box to put in the new years coins I found 1 or 2 coins in each set that had spotted since the year before. These coins were all pristine spot-free coins the year before. After 3 or 4 years of replacing spotted coins I gave up and sold the sets. The coins were stored in CoinTains with selica gel in the SDB.

Many people have posted photos of Silver Eagles from as recent as 2006 still in the Mint Capsules that had spotted. The theory seems to be the spotting is caused by a rinse process at The Mint or it's supplier of planchets???

I won't even buy a Silver Eagle anymore because of this problem, this is a shame as I really like the design but when the coins spot they are worth silver melt and that is it!!!! You can't hardly even sell them to a collector if spotted!

JMHO GrandAm

RBinTex · September 3, 2007 1:38PM

Heck yeah!!!

19Lyds · September 3, 2007 1:48PM

And Milk Spotting doe snot occur on all Silver Eagles. However, if you have an MS70 graded Eagle and it develops unsightly milk spots then by all means, send it in for the gradeing guarantee!

PCGS is aware of the problems and is willing to accept the consequences of this problem on some Silver Eagles.

As a side note, the 1964 Proof Kennedy;s are prone to milk spotting as well so it ain't just Silver Eagles.

stman · September 3, 2007 1:56PM

<< I suppose the number of coins returned will be low compared to the revenue from grading, >>

Me thinks you just answered your own question.

Cgb · September 3, 2007 1:57PM

Personally, I would feel bad about using their buy back policy. I mean when it was graded it was a MS69 or 70 or whatever it was, and slabbed accordingly. It was not their fault it developed spots.

I feel people buying coins known to spot are taking a bit of a risk or placing a bet if you will (Knowing that MS70s will increase in value), and not fall back onto PCGS when they lost that bet.

mackdriver · September 3, 2007 2:02PM

So,if you buy a washing machine and it breaks down after a week of use,then you would feel bad about using your warrenty?

BAJJERFAN · September 3, 2007 2:05PM

I have said before that I don't see why PCGS has any liability here as there is no proof that I've heard of that their actions cause the spotting. Its not like they should know which coins will or won't spot and slab potential spotters anyway. If I was PCGS I'd limit my remedy to reslabbing/regrading the coin for free; customer pays shipping to and from. Fortunately the market value of most of them is relatively low.

BAJJERFAN · September 3, 2007 2:13PM

<< So,if you buy a washing machine and it breaks down after a week of use,then you would feel bad about using your warrenty? >>

Of course not, but then its apples and oranges since PCGS did not have ANYTHING to do with making the ASE's. A car dealer usually asks you to sign a disclaimer relieving them of any warranty responsibility since they did not build the car. The appliance maker did make the washer tho. Of course the Mint's take would be that they are not making them to any set or warrantable standards so that a spotted ASE is still an ounce of bullion silver.

Cgb · September 3, 2007 2:58PM

<< So,if you buy a washing machine and it breaks down after a week of use,then you would feel bad about using your warrenty? >>

No, I would not feel bad at all about using my warranty.

The maker of the washing machine is responsible for the quality of its goods, and offers a warranty. If the washing machine breaks down due to faulty manufacturing I would take the company up on the warranty.

On the other hand PCGS does not make these coins, it is not their fault that spotting can occur. If you want to blame someone blame the mint

mackdriver · September 3, 2007 3:10PM

I do blame the mint,but the bottom line here is,a guarantee is a guarantee,no matter who writes it.

TwoSides2aCoin · September 3, 2007 3:11PM

<< I do blame the mint,but the bottom line here is,a guarantee is a guarantee,no matter who writes it. >>

Very true. Also we should give PCGS some credit. Does anyone remember Mr Guth addressing this and begging for a solution almost ? None of us likes these nasty spots and it's a shame PCGS has to eat it. I guess that's the price we pay sometimes. I think the buyback policy should be for problem coins.
PCGS already recognizes Silver Eagles AS problem coins coming in

Texast · September 3, 2007 3:13PM

<< No, I would not feel bad at all about using my warranty.

The maker of the washing machine is responsible for the quality of its goods, and offers a warranty. If the washing machine breaks down due to faulty manufacturing I would take the company up on the warranty.

On the other hand PCGS does not make these coins, it is not their fault that spotting can occur. If you want to blame someone blame the mint >>

Part of the cost of doing business with PCGS has to be the fact that they offer a warranty, they do charge a little more than other grading services but it is worth it for the warranty. It's no different than buying an extended warranty for your car from an independant company, they did not make the car but are willing to bet that they will make more in premiums than they have to pay for repairs.

mackdriver · September 3, 2007 3:15PM

Thank you Texast,very well put.

Cgb · September 3, 2007 4:44PM

What Texas said is logical.

However in my heart I simply do not feel it is right.

IrishMike · September 3, 2007 5:09PM

From a business point of view they really don't have a choice but to take of you if the slab wasn't tampered with. They grade these by the boatloads. Imagine if they said we will continue to make lots of money by grading them but the grade is only temporary, can't work in this world. Where do you draw the line, what about PVC that shows up after the fact, its not their fault that it orginally was infected with this. It's part of the risk you assume when you guarantee a grade, its why they were founded and the market accepted them.

richardshipp · September 3, 2007 10:33PM

Is the collector taking advantage of them? Let's see...

I (collector) purchased 10 sets from the Mint and per PCGS instructions never opened the box. I sent the box unopened to PCGS where the coins were graded and slabbed along with a guarantee and paid a fee of about $900.

I stored my sets in the SDB in the bank for about a year.

Now several of the coins including one with a current value of almost $2000 has developed spots.

I'm not sure how this is my fault; nor can I really fault PCGS. I would imagine the problems are a result of the cleaning process which occured during the coins manufacture.

I suppose one of the reasons that there is a guarantee from PCGS is for exactly this kind of scenario.

You see I'm not trying to "take advantage" of PCGS or anyone. In the case of my First Strike Reverse Proof 70 with spots, I would be perfectly happy to receive in exchange a coin graded the same with no spots.

Now after having typed all this........ I realize what a dumb question you asked in the first place.

Mark · September 3, 2007 10:37PM

I can assure you that if a hurricane hits my house, I shall use my State Farm insurance...even though I strongly suspect that State Farm had nothing to do with creating the hurricane. Though I do not collect Silver Eagles, I can equally well assure you that if I did and one spotted, I'd use my PCGS insurance....even though I know that PCGS had nothing to do with the spotting.

schnappy · September 3, 2007 10:52PM

I have a question about the grade guarantee. I have the 3 piece anniversary set graded 69 by PCGS. The proof and uncirculated have started to spot, really nasty spots on the proof. The reverse proof still looks fine. Can a person who is not a member of PCGS send them back for the grade guarantee or would I need to join first. I bought them off Ebay. I plan on joining in the future because I have some coins I would like to send in, but I was wondering if it is a requirement. Thanks.

tmot99 · September 3, 2007 11:01PM

<< I have said before that I don't see why PCGS has any liability here as there is no proof that I've heard of that their actions cause the spotting. Its not like they should know which coins will or won't spot and slab potential spotters anyway. If I was PCGS I'd limit my remedy to reslabbing/regrading the coin for free; customer pays shipping to and from. Fortunately the market value of most of them is relatively low. >>

But the problem is that the liability is on the plastic surrounding the coin. Ultimately, the Mint should be held accountable, but I doubt that will ever happen. But PCGS puts coins in slabs with a grade and the grade changed.

I would think that there has to be some way of detecting a spot even if it's with a strong microscope. You'd think you might find a minute speck somewhere that starts the spotting.

IrishMike · September 3, 2007 11:18PM

If you are going to spend time doing that kind of analysis on a coin it would be more cost effective just not to grade them.

tmot99 · September 3, 2007 11:18PM

<< If you are going to spend time doing that kind of analysis on a coin it would be more cost effective just not to grade them. >>

I didn't say that it would be cost effective.

PerryHall · September 4, 2007 12:14AM

<< And Milk Spotting doe snot occur on all Silver Eagles. >>

Thanks, 19Lyds. I never realized that milk spots were caused by doe snot.

BAJJERFAN · September 4, 2007 12:16AM

<< But the problem is that the liability is on the plastic surrounding the coin. Ultimately, the Mint should be held accountable, but I doubt that will ever happen. But PCGS puts coins in slabs with a grade and the grade changed. >>

If the coin turns in the holder due to doctoring that PCGS should have spotted [no pun intended] or doctoring that will be evident over time then I can see where they would have some liability; then again they would also likely go after the submitter. Assuming liability for bulk bullion isn't very wise, but as long as they make $$ its probly not a serious detriment. If I was giving out 70's I'd cover my rear by dipping em.

Gemineye · September 4, 2007 12:19AM

With all this controversy about who is repsponsible for the SAE you have a window of return for your purchase from the Mint.It is the same just like any other purchase from a store.What you are buying is Bullion.If the item is not right within the time frame that you purchased it then you return it.If after prolonged storage that item begins to tone or tarnish or develope spots..how can the Mint be responsible.???...
True ...the Mint should be aware of quality control.Even other coins develop spots after the rinsing.Return the Item after the purchase.Once the item has passed the time limit it's yours....PCGS guarantee is another story...

BAJJERFAN · September 4, 2007 12:31AM

The consumer/collector has essentially ZERO return privilege with the Mint for something that he did not buy directly from the Mint. Their return policy is for 30 days which also pretty much precludes any claim for slabbed mint issued coins. I believe that the Mint purchases silver planchets and does not make their own, but I could be in error about that.

57loaded · September 4, 2007 1:39AM

<< What Texas said is logical.

However in my heart I simply do not feel it is right. >>

heart and logic are two different things

"Mark"'s point a few threads above is well put, also.