if you define me as a "snob" because i think that people are fools for falling for the whole MS70 nonsense, than so be it. The American Eagle series is a hit, in both design and quality. However, one must remember that they are bullion coins that were minted by the US government as a bullion investment vehicle. If people want to go wild by grading bullion, than so be it; but i'll never be in the camp to say that these "perfect" 70 coins are worth the premium to justify a long-term investment. The folks that say the latter are ultra-high grade modern "dealers", flippers and scam artists catering to newbies.
If you collect American Eagles, terrific! If you have rolls of American Eagles as a precious metal investment, that is great too. You are truly smart in doing so, as the outlook of silver looks quite good. If you're buying "perfect" ASEs for the plastic tombs they are shouded in, I'll venture to guess you'd be better off to sell them and buy more ASEs in bulk with the proceeds. I don't think this line of thinking makes me a snob, but you opinion may differ.
I don't disagree with what you just said, except for the MS-70 thing. Note, I don't collect sets of 70 anything, but I do have 70 graded coins, by virtual of having sent them in and getting them graded.
I've made the comparison between a scarce date MS-65 and MS-66 Morgan vs. a PR-69 vs. PR-70 American Eagle before. If you are going to designate a price difference of thousands of $$$$s between two grades, I submit to you that it makes no difference whether the flaw exists on an 1885 coin or an 1995 coin. I also submit to you that it makes no difference whether the mark is 0.3 mm in length and 0.05 mm deep or whether it is 0.03 mm in length and 0.005 mm deep. It's still splitting hairs, for "big money" (a relative term, to be sure).
If I have mistaken some of your past remarks in the wrong vein, please excuse my bout with early senility. However, I could have sworn that you've been hypercritical of some of my favorite coins, and if that was not your intent, please accept my apology. My hope is simply to browbeat enough people into accepting "Modern collectors into the fold" - especially since most of us collect classic coins, too. Fair enough?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>if you define me as a "snob" because i think that people are fools for falling for the whole MS70 nonsense, than so be it. The American Eagle series is a hit, in both design and quality. However, one must remember that they are bullion coins that were minted by the US government as a bullion investment vehicle. If people want to go wild by grading bullion, than so be it; but i'll never be in the camp to say that these "perfect" 70 coins are worth the premium to justify a long-term investment. The folks that say the latter are ultra-high grade modern "dealers", flippers and scam artists catering to newbies.
If you collect American Eagles, terrific! If you have rolls of American Eagles as a precious metal investment, that is great too. You are truly smart in doing so, as the outlook of silver looks quite good. If you're buying "perfect" ASEs for the plastic tombs they are shouded in, I'll venture to guess you'd be better off to sell them and buy more ASEs in bulk with the proceeds. I don't think this line of thinking makes me a snob, but you opinion may differ.
I don't disagree with what you just said, except for the MS-70 thing. Note, I don't collect sets of 70 anything, but I do have 70 graded coins, by virtual of having sent them in and getting them graded.
I've made the comparison between a scarce date MS-65 and MS-66 Morgan vs. a PR-69 vs. PR-70 American Eagle before. If you are going to designate a price difference of thousands of $$$$s between two grades, I submit to you that it makes no difference whether the flaw exists on an 1885 coin or an 1995 coin. I also submit to you that it makes no difference whether the mark is 0.3 mm in length and 0.05 mm deep or whether it is 0.03 mm in length and 0.005 mm deep. It's still splitting hairs, for "big money" (a relative term, to be sure).
If I have mistaken some of your past remarks in the wrong vein, please excuse my bout with early senility. However, I could have sworn that you've been hypercritical of some of my favorite coins, and if that was not your intent, please accept my apology. My hope is simply to browbeat enough people into accepting "Modern collectors into the fold" - especially since most of us collect classic coins, too. Fair enough? >>
No apology necessary. I've never intended to "bash" all modern coins, just ones that tend to be pushed onto newbies for stupid money. I'm really only speaking of the bullion issues here; the stuff that is minted as intended for actual circulation is of course excluded from my angst. I think moderns are great coins for new collectors, and experienced alike. The reason i focus on new collectors getting fleeced is kinda' Scott Travers-esque, if you will; there are far too many new collectors out there looking for something to collect. They wade into moderns and NCLT, as well they should! then they get bombarded with TV coin shows, PCGS/NGC ads, blah-blah-blah; all telling them the premium for MS 70/PF 70 coins and that is the "only way to go!" There is far too much money being shelled out by newbies for MS/PF70s on bullion/NCLT coins that may not hold their value. Believe me when i say that i may be wrong about their long term potential. Also believe me when i say that i HOPE i'm wrong; i'd rather be wrong and have to "eat crow", than see a whole lotta' new collectors lose a whole lotta' money. However, i'm certainly not the only person that see this as a possible numismatic trainwreck based entirely on marketing; only time will tell i guess.
There are coins of every type where the spread in valuation between adjacent grades is tremendous. However, some coins will have a far easier chance of getting the same tag if cracked out and will pretty much retain their values on their own without the plastic among knowledgeable collectors. I challenge any grade 70 collector to pay anything close to 70 money for a raw coin that looks to meet the standard for 70 and where 70 isn't a usual grade. I know a number of classic collectors who will pay 65 gem money for the equivalent raw coin, sight seen. Perhaps there are ultramodern buyers who would do this. I doubt it and most would probably deem it suicide.
I challenge any grade 70 collector to pay anything close to 70 money for a raw coin that looks to meet the standard for 70 and where 70 isn't a usual grade.
Prepare to hear the crickets chirp...
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
The reason i focus on new collectors getting fleeced is kinda' Scott Travers-esque, if you will; there are far too many new collectors out there looking for something to collect. They wade into moderns and NCLT, as well they should! then they get bombarded with TV coin shows, PCGS/NGC ads, blah-blah-blah; all telling them the premium for MS 70/PF 70 coins and that is the "only way to go!"
Well, I didn't really want to get into the semantics of it, but I would have to consider that a newbie isn't really a collector, until he knows what it is he collects. Buying slabs willy-nilly has never been my idea of a good time.
And I would never buy a coin from a TV ad, just like I would never buy KaBoom from the TV ad. That's just Rule #1 for living in this advertising-driven world. Besides, I get real tired of Billy what's-his-name yelling in my ear.
There is far too much money being shelled out by newbies for MS/PF70s on bullion/NCLT coins that may not hold their value.
Yeah, and the pricing for slabbed coins on TV sucks too. See comments above.
I challenge any grade 70 collector to pay anything close to 70 money for a raw coin that looks to meet the standard for 70 and where 70 isn't a usual grade. I know a number of classic collectors who will pay 65 gem money for the equivalent raw coin, sight seen.
Prepare to hear the crickets chirp...
Basically, you are setting the preconditions for failure in your 70 paradigm. You are establishing a precondition with low probability by definition when you suggest buying a coin for 70 money from a population of coins where 70 isn't a usual grade. Who wants those odds?
Likewise, you are establishing a can't-lose situation with your 65 gem scenario. If the coin is equivalent, then you already know that it's equivalent. Duh.
On the other hand, aren't you arguing against the existance of the now, well-renowned "bifurcated market" - that mythical marketing device invented in order to extract even more money from the space between dealers and real collectors?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
As a whole, we are not nearly so refined as to be referred to as snobs.... more like bigots, really. But with time, and a healthy thickening of the skin, you'll grow to appreciate the dynamic.
Welcome to the forum.
There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt. –John Adams, 1826
Basically, you are setting the preconditions for failure in your 70 paradigm. You are establishing a precondition with low probability by definition when you suggest buying a coin for 70 money from a population of coins where 70 isn't a usual grade. Who wants those odds?
Likewise, you are establishing a can't-lose situation with your 65 gem scenario. If the coin is equivalent, then you already know that it's equivalent. Duh.
>>
...And the 65 might come back 66. The 70 sure ain't comin' back 71.
I used to go for those flashy smoothcheeked MS70 cheerleaders back when I didnt know theyd just break your heart....... base metal, all of them!! Give me old Goldie - face like a plowed field....
<< <i>The reason i focus on new collectors getting fleeced is kinda' Scott Travers-esque, if you will; there are far too many new collectors out there looking for something to collect. They wade into moderns and NCLT, as well they should! then they get bombarded with TV coin shows, PCGS/NGC ads, blah-blah-blah; all telling them the premium for MS 70/PF 70 coins and that is the "only way to go!" >>
Far more newbies have been fleeced buying generic Saints, Libertys, and Morgans then have been fleeced buying MS70 graded moderns.
<< <i>Today's junk will always be junk. There is too much being produced, nearly all of which will survive in very high grade. It ISN'T like it was in the pre-1934 period. Collecting has changed. >>
<< <i>I find it amusing to read the posts of what must be the classic coin collectors who feel it a badge of honor to put down modern issues. I sense that from some dealers also. Don't these bastions of purity know that today's junk is what makes tomorrows treasured classics? I wonder how many collectors of 20th century coins had to endure similar comments from the collectors of the 19th century coins. I understand that there may be some legitimate criticism of SOME issues of quality or design but can we avoid forming the "I hate moderns" club? I collect both. >>
AMEN!
PEACE! This is the first day of the rest of your life.
<< <i>Today's junk will always be junk. There is too much being produced, nearly all of which will survive in very high grade. It ISN'T like it was in the pre-1934 period. Collecting has changed. >>
Ditto. >>
So you choose to simply ignore the refutation.
Where is your big stash of gem 1971 dimes or '71-D DDR quarters? How about bags of 1998-D nickels?
It's easy to say just about anything even when it isn't reflected in reality.
<< <i>I challenge any grade 70 collector to pay anything close to 70 money for a raw coin that looks to meet the standard for 70 and where 70 isn't a usual grade. I know a number of classic collectors who will pay 65 gem money for the equivalent raw coin, sight seen. >>
Including an 1896-O or 1884-S Morgan?
I don't disagree with you in the general case, but there are extreme condition rarities in the classics market too, which have similar dynamics as the huge gap between (say) 69 and 70 for ultramoderns or even 67 and 68 for modern business strikes.
Anyone who would pay full 65 money for a raw 1884-S or 1896-O Morgan that looks 65 has a large pair of brass ones. Especially knowing that TPGs are almost criminally conservative on these dates in high grades.
<< <i>I challenge any grade 70 collector to pay anything close to 70 money for a raw coin that looks to meet the standard for 70 and where 70 isn't a usual grade. I know a number of classic collectors who will pay 65 gem money for the equivalent raw coin, sight seen. >>
Including an 1896-O or 1884-S Morgan?
I don't disagree with you in the general case, but there are extreme condition rarities in the classics market too, which have similar dynamics as the huge gap between (say) 69 and 70 for ultramoderns or even 67 and 68 for modern business strikes.
Anyone who would pay full 65 money for a raw 1884-S or 1896-O Morgan that looks 65 has a large pair of brass ones. Especially knowing that TPGs are almost criminally conservative on these dates in high grades. >>
Yes, including those two dates. You know; there are quite a few collectors out here who are just as good at authenticating and grading a coin as the average TPG grader/authenticator. Also, a lot are coin colelctors who are buying coins and don't give a rat's ass how criminally conservative a particular TPG or grader is. It's about buying and collecting coins. Very nice coins speak for themselves much of the time. Sure, it is difficult to imagine great gems of rare classic dates being out there untouched by TPGs but I assure you they are indeed there. Top dealers know they are still out there and some might even know whose cabinets they are in.
Comments
The person holding the mint state bust half, pointing and laughing at the person putting rolls of state quarters in tubes for storage.
If someone had not put away that MS bust there wouldn't be a MS bust........
Same concept different values and different points in time......
You can not have one without the other.
AL
If you collect American Eagles, terrific! If you have rolls of American Eagles as a precious metal investment, that is great too. You are truly smart in doing so, as the outlook of silver looks quite good. If you're buying "perfect" ASEs for the plastic tombs they are shouded in, I'll venture to guess you'd be better off to sell them and buy more ASEs in bulk with the proceeds. I don't think this line of thinking makes me a snob, but you opinion may differ.
I don't disagree with what you just said, except for the MS-70 thing. Note, I don't collect sets of 70 anything, but I do have 70 graded coins, by virtual of having sent them in and getting them graded.
I've made the comparison between a scarce date MS-65 and MS-66 Morgan vs. a PR-69 vs. PR-70 American Eagle before. If you are going to designate a price difference of thousands of $$$$s between two grades, I submit to you that it makes no difference whether the flaw exists on an 1885 coin or an 1995 coin. I also submit to you that it makes no difference whether the mark is 0.3 mm in length and 0.05 mm deep or whether it is 0.03 mm in length and 0.005 mm deep. It's still splitting hairs, for "big money" (a relative term, to be sure).
If I have mistaken some of your past remarks in the wrong vein, please excuse my bout with early senility. However, I could have sworn that you've been hypercritical of some of my favorite coins, and if that was not your intent, please accept my apology. My hope is simply to browbeat enough people into accepting "Modern collectors into the fold" - especially since most of us collect classic coins, too. Fair enough?
I knew it would happen.
The person holding the mint state bust half, pointing and laughing at the person putting rolls of state quarters in tubes for storage.
If someone had not put away that MS bust there wouldn't be a MS bust........
Same concept different values and different points in time......
You can not have one without the other.
AL
Yes! Yes! Exactly!
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>You can collect coins, but you can only accumulate moderns.
Yes. Exactly. Real collectors can only accumulate coins. Everyone else seems too busy bashing what others care about.
<< <i>if you define me as a "snob" because i think that people are fools for falling for the whole MS70 nonsense, than so be it. The American Eagle series is a hit, in both design and quality. However, one must remember that they are bullion coins that were minted by the US government as a bullion investment vehicle. If people want to go wild by grading bullion, than so be it; but i'll never be in the camp to say that these "perfect" 70 coins are worth the premium to justify a long-term investment. The folks that say the latter are ultra-high grade modern "dealers", flippers and scam artists catering to newbies.
If you collect American Eagles, terrific! If you have rolls of American Eagles as a precious metal investment, that is great too. You are truly smart in doing so, as the outlook of silver looks quite good. If you're buying "perfect" ASEs for the plastic tombs they are shouded in, I'll venture to guess you'd be better off to sell them and buy more ASEs in bulk with the proceeds. I don't think this line of thinking makes me a snob, but you opinion may differ.
I don't disagree with what you just said, except for the MS-70 thing. Note, I don't collect sets of 70 anything, but I do have 70 graded coins, by virtual of having sent them in and getting them graded.
I've made the comparison between a scarce date MS-65 and MS-66 Morgan vs. a PR-69 vs. PR-70 American Eagle before. If you are going to designate a price difference of thousands of $$$$s between two grades, I submit to you that it makes no difference whether the flaw exists on an 1885 coin or an 1995 coin. I also submit to you that it makes no difference whether the mark is 0.3 mm in length and 0.05 mm deep or whether it is 0.03 mm in length and 0.005 mm deep. It's still splitting hairs, for "big money" (a relative term, to be sure).
If I have mistaken some of your past remarks in the wrong vein, please excuse my bout with early senility. However, I could have sworn that you've been hypercritical of some of my favorite coins, and if that was not your intent, please accept my apology. My hope is simply to browbeat enough people into accepting "Modern collectors into the fold" - especially since most of us collect classic coins, too. Fair enough?
No apology necessary. I've never intended to "bash" all modern coins, just ones that tend to be pushed onto newbies for stupid money. I'm really only speaking of the bullion issues here; the stuff that is minted as intended for actual circulation is of course excluded from my angst. I think moderns are great coins for new collectors, and experienced alike. The reason i focus on new collectors getting fleeced is kinda' Scott Travers-esque, if you will; there are far too many new collectors out there looking for something to collect. They wade into moderns and NCLT, as well they should! then they get bombarded with TV coin shows, PCGS/NGC ads, blah-blah-blah; all telling them the premium for MS 70/PF 70 coins and that is the "only way to go!"
There is far too much money being shelled out by newbies for MS/PF70s on bullion/NCLT coins that may not hold their value. Believe me when i say that i may be wrong about their long term potential. Also believe me when i say that i HOPE i'm wrong; i'd rather be wrong and have to "eat crow", than see a whole lotta' new collectors lose a whole lotta' money. However, i'm certainly not the only person that see this as a possible numismatic trainwreck based entirely on marketing; only time will tell i guess.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Prepare to hear the crickets chirp...
Well, I didn't really want to get into the semantics of it, but I would have to consider that a newbie isn't really a collector, until he knows what it is he collects. Buying slabs willy-nilly has never been my idea of a good time.
And I would never buy a coin from a TV ad, just like I would never buy KaBoom from the TV ad. That's just Rule #1 for living in this advertising-driven world. Besides, I get real tired of Billy what's-his-name yelling in my ear.
There is far too much money being shelled out by newbies for MS/PF70s on bullion/NCLT coins that may not hold their value.
Yeah, and the pricing for slabbed coins on TV sucks too. See comments above.
I challenge any grade 70 collector to pay anything close to 70 money for a raw coin that looks to meet the standard for 70 and where 70 isn't a usual grade. I know a number of classic collectors who will pay 65 gem money for the equivalent raw coin, sight seen.
Prepare to hear the crickets chirp...
Basically, you are setting the preconditions for failure in your 70 paradigm. You are establishing a precondition with low probability by definition when you suggest buying a coin for 70 money from a population of coins where 70 isn't a usual grade. Who wants those odds?
Likewise, you are establishing a can't-lose situation with your 65 gem scenario. If the coin is equivalent, then you already know that it's equivalent. Duh.
On the other hand, aren't you arguing against the existance of the now, well-renowned "bifurcated market" - that mythical marketing device invented in order to extract even more money from the space between dealers and real collectors?
I knew it would happen.
Welcome to the forum.
–John Adams, 1826
<< <i>
Basically, you are setting the preconditions for failure in your 70 paradigm. You are establishing a precondition with low probability by definition when you suggest buying a coin for 70 money from a population of coins where 70 isn't a usual grade. Who wants those odds?
Likewise, you are establishing a can't-lose situation with your 65 gem scenario. If the coin is equivalent, then you already know that it's equivalent. Duh.
>>
...And the 65 might come back 66. The 70 sure ain't comin' back 71.
<< <i>The reason i focus on new collectors getting fleeced is kinda' Scott Travers-esque, if you will; there are far too many new collectors out there looking for something to collect. They wade into moderns and NCLT, as well they should! then they get bombarded with TV coin shows, PCGS/NGC ads, blah-blah-blah; all telling them the premium for MS 70/PF 70 coins and that is the "only way to go!" >>
Far more newbies have been fleeced buying generic Saints, Libertys, and Morgans then have been fleeced buying MS70 graded moderns.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Do I sense a bit of snobery? >>
You only sense 'a bit' because one forum member no longer participates. Otherwise, you'd sense a lot more
<< <i>Today's junk will always be junk. There is too much being produced, nearly all of which will survive in very high grade. It ISN'T like it was in the pre-1934 period. Collecting has changed. >>
Ditto.
<< <i>I find it amusing to read the posts of what must be the classic coin collectors who feel it a badge of honor to put down modern issues. I sense that from some dealers also. Don't these bastions of purity know that today's junk is what makes tomorrows treasured classics? I wonder how many collectors of 20th century coins had to endure similar comments from the collectors of the 19th century coins. I understand that there may be some legitimate criticism of SOME issues of quality or design but can we avoid forming the "I hate moderns" club? I collect both. >>
AMEN!
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
<< <i>
<< <i>Today's junk will always be junk. There is too much being produced, nearly all of which will survive in very high grade. It ISN'T like it was in the pre-1934 period. Collecting has changed. >>
Ditto. >>
So you choose to simply ignore the refutation.
Where is your big stash of gem 1971 dimes or '71-D DDR quarters? How about bags of 1998-D nickels?
It's easy to say just about anything even when it isn't reflected in reality.
<< <i>I challenge any grade 70 collector to pay anything close to 70 money for a raw coin that looks to meet the standard for 70 and where 70 isn't a usual grade. I know a number of classic collectors who will pay 65 gem money for the equivalent raw coin, sight seen. >>
Including an 1896-O or 1884-S Morgan?
I don't disagree with you in the general case, but there are extreme condition rarities in the classics market too, which have similar dynamics as the huge gap between (say) 69 and 70 for ultramoderns or even 67 and 68 for modern business strikes.
Anyone who would pay full 65 money for a raw 1884-S or 1896-O Morgan that looks 65 has a large pair of brass ones. Especially knowing that TPGs are almost criminally conservative on these dates in high grades.
<< <i>
<< <i>I challenge any grade 70 collector to pay anything close to 70 money for a raw coin that looks to meet the standard for 70 and where 70 isn't a usual grade. I know a number of classic collectors who will pay 65 gem money for the equivalent raw coin, sight seen. >>
Including an 1896-O or 1884-S Morgan?
I don't disagree with you in the general case, but there are extreme condition rarities in the classics market too, which have similar dynamics as the huge gap between (say) 69 and 70 for ultramoderns or even 67 and 68 for modern business strikes.
Anyone who would pay full 65 money for a raw 1884-S or 1896-O Morgan that looks 65 has a large pair of brass ones. Especially knowing that TPGs are almost criminally conservative on these dates in high grades. >>
Yes, including those two dates. You know; there are quite a few collectors out here who are just as good at authenticating and grading a coin as the average TPG grader/authenticator. Also, a lot are coin colelctors who are buying coins and don't give a rat's ass how criminally conservative a particular TPG or grader is. It's about buying and collecting coins. Very nice coins speak for themselves much of the time. Sure, it is difficult to imagine great gems of rare classic dates being out there untouched by TPGs but I assure you they are indeed there. Top dealers know they are still out there and some might even know whose cabinets they are in.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member