MrEureka gets hosed with a PCI coin...

MrEureka · August 25, 2007 10:52AM

I bought a PCI red tag "AU 58 Cleaned" Dahlonega gold piece this morning. I paid AU 50 money - the dealer's asking price - because the cleaning was trivial, there were no other visible problems, and I figured it could cross to PCGS 55. This would have left me a nice profit.

When I cracked the coin out of the holder, I found that there was a small but obvious test cut on the edge of the coin. The coin would bodybag at PCGS or NGC every time.

I now wonder what PCI was thinking when they decided to call the coin "cleaned" instead of "test cut damage". Was it a case of conspiracy, incompetence or something else? Without a court order to determine who submitted the coin, we may never know the answer.

The bottom line is that I will never buy a PCI coin again without demanding that the coin first be removed from the slab for inspection.

Perhaps others will learn something from my mistake.

Unknown · August 25, 2007 10:55AM

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tjkillian · August 25, 2007 10:56AM

Ouch, I feel for you. I've bought older PCI coins before and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Can you show a picture of the test cut?

coinman420 · August 25, 2007 10:56AM

the coin would have BB becauce of the cleaning, right?

edited to add that you knew it was cleaned(pci red label) and you thought it might slab at pcgs???

Wolf359 · August 25, 2007 10:58AM

It would be interesting to send it back to PCI and see what they do. Then, of course, sell the coin with it's true attributes.

Sucks though, sorry.

coinman420 · August 25, 2007 11:00AM

post a pic?

MrEureka · August 25, 2007 11:01AM

the coin would have BB becauce of the cleaning, right?

Ignoring the test cut, it could BB for cleaning at PCGS, or not. I'd say it would have been a 50/50 shot.

MrEureka · August 25, 2007 11:03AM

It would be interesting to send it back to PCI and see what they do.

You can't seriously think I would pay them to grade a coin, can you?

slumlord98 · August 25, 2007 11:04AM

Sorry to hear about the hosing you took, but if you think NGC might have offered some protection, I offer these images as evidence to the contrary. The coin was tilted just so in the slab and I missed the spot where someone gnawed on this coin, as did the NGC grader, who saw the coin raw.

notwilight · August 25, 2007 11:13AM

I hope this PCI coin will eventually cross....

Aegis3 · August 25, 2007 11:35AM

Of course, since NGC has slabbed the Pittman 1844-O quarter, shouldn't you demand that _all_ slabbed coins be removed for inspection before purchase? While I wouldn't hold PCI on the same level as NGC or PCGS (or some others), isn't this more a problem in mass psychology than it is in numismatics?

Barndog · August 25, 2007 11:37AM

thanks for sharing the story. I hope to remember this lesson you learned next time I look at and consider a PCI coin.

57loaded · August 25, 2007 11:40AM

a sure thing it wasn't after all, eh?

777 · August 25, 2007 12:06PM

These third-world so called grading companies should be held accountable

for all the damage they have done to the numismatic industry.

Zoins · August 25, 2007 12:10PM

<< These third-world so called grading companies should be held accountable

for all the damage they have done to the numismatic industry.

>>

But where do you draw the line? PCGS and NGC net grade market acceptable problem coins in some series that they wouldn't slab in others. Did we ever hear about what happened with that Gobrecht?

One issue is that if every grading services uses their own standards, then perhaps you can't say one is more wrong than another from an objective, technical perspective. I don't believe any of the top TPGs say they use the ANA grading scale and is there even a standard scale for problems?

pocketpiececommems · August 25, 2007 12:20PM

I sometimes think that PCI and ANACS go overboard with the "cleaned" designation. At least with PCGS it is or it isn't for their graders wither we agree or not.

Shortgapbob · August 25, 2007 12:58PM

Seems very common for people to forget to look at the edge, or the third side of a coin. However, it is unacceptable for a grading service to miss something like this, regardless of who the company is.

fc · August 25, 2007 1:08PM

that is too bad. i am also sometimes tempted to buy PCI but the
people selling them on ebay are total losers.

the likes of ernie and such which instantly tells me watch out.

otherwise, yea, you have to wonder why some anacs coins, for
example say cleaned on it when they look better them a lot
of ngc/pcgs coins and demand the same money.

RYK · August 25, 2007 1:12PM

This is an example of why third world slabs are often "worse than raw".

BTW, what was the Dahlonega coin?

notwilight · August 25, 2007 1:18PM

PCI also slabbed Jefferson dollars sent to them before the release date and returned the to the submitter--showing disregard for the US Mint release date.

I believe the PCI old slab (such as I posted above) is seen in a more positive light. Not that I need a good slab on that coin, I'm very happy with it (unless the rim is hosed).

--Jerry

Peaceman · August 25, 2007 1:23PM

Ah yes, the crackout game.... If one should decide to play, one should understand all the possible outcomes....

I cracked one coin this year.... A Top 50 vam that I thought would 65, it was in a PCGS 64 holder.... She went from....

PCGS MS-64
NGC MS-64
PCGS MS-63
NGC MS-64
PCGS MS-64

And I gave up after spending $ 250 on grading fees on a $ 900 coin which could have went $ 1500 maybe....

Lesson learned...

airedale · August 25, 2007 3:22PM

<< I bought a PCI red tag "AU 58 Cleaned" Dahlonega gold piece this morning. I paid AU 50 money - the dealer's asking price - because the cleaning was trivial, there were no other visible problems, and I figured it could cross to PCGS 55. This would have left me a nice profit.

When I cracked the coin out of the holder, I found that there was a small but obvious test cut on the edge of the coin. The coin would bodybag at PCGS or NGC every time.

I now wonder what PCI was thinking when they decided to call the coin "cleaned" instead of "test cut damage". Was it a case of conspiracy, incompetence or something else? Without a court order to determine who submitted the coin, we may never know the answer.

The bottom line is that I will never buy a PCI coin again without demanding that the coin first be removed from the slab for inspection.

Perhaps others will learn something from my mistake. >>

I thought cleaning was a fatal fault in itself. There are different degrees?

Myqqy · August 25, 2007 3:38PM

I would love to see a pic of the test cut. And I'm curious if there is a elite type of coin that could still slab at pcgs or ngc with that type of damage- because of the preferential treatment given to better coins over widgets...

Wolf359 · August 25, 2007 5:19PM

<< It would be interesting to send it back to PCI and see what they do.

You can't seriously think I would pay them to grade a coin, can you? >>

---I now wonder what PCI was thinking when they decided to call the coin "cleaned" instead of "test cut damage". Was it a case of conspiracy, incompetence or something else? Without a court order to determine who submitted the coin, we may never know the answer. ---

Since you were willing to buy one, yes I did.

coinkat · August 25, 2007 10:23PM

sorry to read about this.

Connecticoin · August 25, 2007 10:27PM

I don't touch those red PCI holders with a ten foot pole. PCI will slab cleaned coins as OK, so if PCI says a coin is "cleaned" with the dreaded RED holder then the coin usually has MAJOR problems such as rim damage, corrision, or god knows what.

walkerman · August 25, 2007 11:23PM

Andy: With all due respect how can think you were hosed when you knew exactly what you were doing from the gitgo. I think you already knew that you were taking a long shot at outgaming the gamers. PCI is not much different than the other third world crap graders.
They are the grading company of last resort for PCGS and NGC body bagged coins only because they have retained a small measure of credibility in that they are still listed in the blue sheet on a monthly basis.
At one time in the past I was also among the naive for thinking I could outwit the system by buying this type of coin in this type of holder and somehow getting it crossed into a first class holder.
For every winner there were a half dozen losers.
I then realized a basic truth that should have been obvious from the start---that is-- There was a good reason an apparently nice looking coin is in a holder like that in the first place. It had most likely already been rejected by the two major grading services.
No logical thinking person would would have a perfectly legitimate coin slabbed by this company and suffer an automatic discount in it's value, when if it was ok it would fetch a higher price in a first tier holder.
I also gave up playing the Florida lottery when I realized it was a special punitive tax on people with poor math skills. Still, I'm sorry for your loss. Dave W

David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com

Clutch · August 26, 2007 12:02AM

Have you ever had any experience with a Numistrust (NTC) graded coin?

It was a decent price.

Barberman55 · August 26, 2007 12:07AM

Sorry to hear Andy......it's refreshing to hear a "tough luck" numismatic story coming from a coin dealer versus all the usual rhetoric, "I just sold a bunch of 6 figure coins at my last show, and I just bought a coin in a third tier coin slab and turned a 1000% profit on the coin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If mistakes can happen to knowledgeable coin dealer's, they're certainly going to happen to joe collector......it's all part of the learning process.

Barry · August 26, 2007 12:07AM

We all seen the garbage in gold PCI slabs, so the coins must be REALLY bad for them the red flag it. Guess this proves it.

shorecoll · August 26, 2007 12:16AM

Andy, Thank you for sharing the story. One more nail for 3rd world slabs. I do have some old PCI's, but don't plan to crack them to see the edge. Nice meeting you in Milwaukee, by the way.

saintguru · August 26, 2007 12:16AM

Mr. Eureka seems to be sucking that hose more than ever lately.

Mr. Oblique-a??

CarlWohlforth · August 26, 2007 12:31AM

Test cut huh? What's a test cut?

<<Have you ever had any experience with a Numistrust (NTC) graded coin?>>

I have and it wasn't good. They will slab AT coins and over grade by several points. For example your Morgan may be AU.

jdimmick · August 26, 2007 1:07AM

I had the same situation regarding th edge of a PCI Holdered coin several years ago, although not near the dollar figure as Andy's coin (in fact it was a green holder) . It was an 1853-o Seated Half in PCI-45, the coin was a solid original Au-53/55 easily. I just knew this was an upgrade candadite bigtime until I removed it an found the left side edge to be filed. Was not visible at all in the holder.

It was at a show in Raleigh, so I had to buy based on what was visible????

jim

Lakesammman · August 26, 2007 1:07AM

Thanks for the heads up, making us all smarter. Sorry about your discovery.

Trime · August 26, 2007 1:15AM

Andy,
I agree with the others who said that if an experienced and savy professional like you makes this kind of mistake , it is a heads up for the rest of the collectors. Truly sorry.

cape · August 26, 2007 2:31AM

andy, we all make mistakes!, but you shoud've known better. you yourself knew it was cleaned and you shoud've stayed away.

MrEureka · August 26, 2007 2:52AM

I thought cleaning was a fatal fault in itself. There are different degrees?

Excellent question. No, cleaning is not a fatal fault in itself. It's a matter of degree, and it all boils down to a coin-by-coin judgment call.

Edited to clarify that when we speak of "fatal fault", we're talking about is a problem that is so bad that it would consistently prevent a coin from making it into a PCGS holder.

MrEureka · August 26, 2007 2:58AM

andy, we all make mistakes!, but you shoud've known better. you yourself knew it was cleaned and you shoud've stayed away.

Not really. I buy coins with problems all the time and, for the most part, consistently make money on these purchases.

The mistake I made in this case was not negotiating for a return privilege if the coin had hidden edge damage. In that case, I could have cracked the coin out of the slab before even writing the check. I will not make that mistake again.

BAJJERFAN · August 26, 2007 2:58AM

<< The bottom line is that I will never buy a PCI coin again without demanding that the coin first be removed from the slab for inspection. >>

I wonder how that would fly with a dealer if you made that a condition for buying ANY slabbed coin?

MrEureka · August 26, 2007 3:05AM

I wonder how that would fly with a dealer if you made that a condition for buying ANY slabbed coin?

It might fly on some deals. It would depend on the coin, the dealer, the price, the length of the return privilege, the perceived value of the plastic, whether or not the seller saw the coin out of the holder, etc.

ziggy29 · August 26, 2007 3:08AM

<< I wonder how that would fly with a dealer if you made that a condition for buying ANY slabbed coin? >>

True -- but the thing is, unless a coin was undergraded, there's a good chance that this coin in a top-tier holder will remain there and thus have the edge damage never detected.

It's a particular problem with lower-tier slabbers not *only* because they may be more willing to slab coins with this damage, but (perhaps even more so) because they are MUCH more likely to be cracked out -- and this sort of damage is only noticed when the coin is cracked out.

MrEureka · August 26, 2007 3:08AM

how about a picture??

Not a chance. One day, the coin might somehow end up in a PCGS or NGC holder, someone would recognize it, and all hell would break loose. I'd rather not get blamed for that.

walkerman · August 26, 2007 3:09AM

<< Have you ever had any experience with a Numistrust (NTC) graded coin?

It was a decent price. >>

This is a slabber that has no credibility with me. In my previous post I mentioned my stupid mistakes buying these coins at 3 grades under sheet. I bought 3 of these NTC Saints in ms 67 holders for ms 63 money.
I was ecstatic when the coins arrived as all three looked to be minimum ms 66. The lustre was radiant and surfaces had very few marks. Just like the pictures on ebay.
Then I cracked them out. All three had been rim filed.
These were all bought from an otherwise reputable Orlando firm that I have ceased doing business with.
They did not photo shop the pictures but later I noticed that they never displayed NTC coins at any of the National shows where they set up.
But they loaded ebay up with hundreds of them on a continual basis. They also alluded to the PCGS sheet price when they listed them.
By never trafficking in this crap at coin shows they made it obvious that they were a "double breasted" company and knew their ebay sales were fraudulent while maintaing only top tier slabs in their show sales where other dealers were involved.
Well, it was my own greed that caused me to inflict this financial loss on myself and like Andy I hope my story is a lesson to those who are tempted to believe they can successfully beat these people at their own game.
I still have these coins, waiting for gold to go to $1000 an ounce and buy the way have you cracked this coin out yet. Maybe the price you paid was not so decent. Dave W

David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com

57loaded · August 26, 2007 3:11AM

<< Have you ever had any experience with a Numistrust (NTC) graded coin?

It was a decent price. >>

yours is obviously cleaned

MrEureka · August 26, 2007 3:16AM

Test cut huh? What's a test cut?

A test cut is a sharp, narrow and deep file mark, usually on the edge of a coin. It's a primitive test to see if the coin is "solid gold" or some sort of gold-plated fake.

Confusingly, there is another type of damage that we refer to as "rim file". Typically, a "rim file" coin once had obvious damage to the rim, and someone filed the rim down to smooth out the problem. If the original damage was minor and the rim was expertly filed, this type of "repair" can be very deceptive. More often, a "rim file" is pretty obvious, if you think to look.

RYK · August 26, 2007 3:18AM

<< how about a picture??

Not a chance. One day, the coin might somehow end up in a PCGS or NGC holder, someone would recognize it, and all hell would break loose. I'd rather not get blamed for that. >>

So for now on, every time I look at a slabbed Dahlonega coin, I will have to wonder if it is the one with the bum edge? Perhaps, I am better off buying raw!

In this case, you considered the coin as "raw", but did not have the advantage of a raw coin. In the future, I bet you will crack it out before agreeing to such a purchase.

BAJJERFAN · August 26, 2007 3:20AM

Is it worth trying to get it slabbed at ANACS or other TPG?

MrEureka · August 26, 2007 3:25AM

I then realized a basic truth that should have been obvious from the start---that is-- There was a good reason an apparently nice looking coin is in a holder like that in the first place. It had most likely already been rejected by the two major grading services.

Without the test cut, the coin could easily have bodybagged at PCGS and NGC for cleaning, yet still have a good chance to get slabbed on resubmission. (As I said before, I considered the coin a 50/50 shot.) The bottom line is that I would still never completely rule out a coin simply because it's in the wrong holder.

MrEureka · August 26, 2007 3:27AM

Is it worth trying to get it slabbed at ANACS or other TPG?

No, but the coin still has value. I probably won't lose much on the coin.

coindeuce · August 26, 2007 3:46AM

Conversely Andy, I own two PCGS certified examples of Morgan dollar Mint errors (1878-s and 1881-P Partial Collar Strike, full "railroad rim") wherein the edge of the coin is THE market worthy characterisitic of the coin. How ridiculous is it on the part of a TPG to encapsulate coins like this with no option to view the edge? And ironically modern crap such as the GW "smoothies" are being cranked out in edge view holders at a furious pace for the mass market promoters. They even made edge view holders available for a private collection of early lettered edge Federal coinage that has been brought to market recently, IMHO strictly as PR marketing ploy.

MrEureka gets hosed with a PCI coin...

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