Are brilliant white franklins in ms65/66

AU58WALKERS · August 25, 2007 1:32AM

...hard to find?

I think I want to start this set.
I don't much care about FBLs.

EDITED TO ADD: Are there any realistic price sheets?

Jcarney · August 25, 2007 1:46AM

MS66 white coins are much, much more difficult to find than MS65 in white. I have a complete white set in NGC MS65 with 10 or so coins with the FBL designation. The 1949 Philly was by far the toughest to find in true gem white. As far as price sheets, I've found that they are all basically worthless when it comes to Franklins. Look at Heritage, Ebay and Teletrade prices realized to get an idea of true market prices and realize that you'll pay much more for truly PQ examples. BTW, Greysheet doesn't even mention FBL.

coinkat · August 25, 2007 2:38AM

I think your timing is good.

AU58WALKERS · August 25, 2007 3:04AM

<< <i>I think your timing is good. >>

why is that?

supertooth · August 25, 2007 5:04AM

AU58---- Being a Walker guy all my life, I never paid a whole lot of attention to Franklins. I had my circulation sets as a kid---but nothing special. Recently I bought an 'original' bank wrapped role of 1960 Franklins in an accumulation that I purchased. The two end coins had a lot of toning. Thought they would look good in a 'multi--holder' with a nice 'white' one in the middle.

Had two really nice 'white' ones----what I would call about as good as you could get from the mint---so off to NGC one of the white ones and the two toner coins went. Came back that the pretty reverse toner got a 64---the front end toner got a 64 FBL---the totally 'white' coin got a 65.

It was only then that I really thought about checking the population reports of PCGS and NGC. Seems 'most' Franklin UNC. half dollars are graded either MS64 or 65. Personally, I thought that quite strange. But, it would appear that to get a 66 is quite difficult for a lot of the dates and mints.

I was satisfied with my grades---as I had the three holdered for looks more than for any Numismatic value per se. But, it seems a set of Franklins in MS66 might be quite a challenge. Bob [supertooth]

SkyMan · August 25, 2007 1:52PM

I collect toner Frankies, so can't talk specifically to white ones. Bushmaster8 would be a good one to pm about white Frankies.

However, I agree with a variety of the comments made here, regarding Franklins in general. First off, for attractive Frankies throw away the price sheets. Second, the reason the majority of graded Frankies are 64/65 is that no one in their right mind would send a 63 or lower Franklin in for grading... the costs don't justify it. Third, due to their design they show hits quite easily, so it is comparatively difficult to get a 66 and quite difficult to get a 67. I think there is one MS 68 in the whole series graded between PCGS and NGC, out of something like 80,000+ graded. Fourth, the TPG's tend to be stricter technically on grading a white coin than a nicely toned one.

Fifth, you are making the right choice regarding FBL. In many regards it is a marketing gimmick, and particularly for 65's and 66's you are looking at a SIGNIFICANT price differential. Once you learn about strike on Frankies you will find plenty of nicely struck Frankies that are not technically FBL because they are missing some minimal amount of line definition somewhere along the lines. Also, there are quite a few Franklins that have FBL but are poorly struck on other portions of the coin. Finally, due to the wear of the master die, the definition of the details will vary from year to year, basically getting worse from 1948 to 1959, and then looking much better in '60-'63 due to a new master die (although more poorly cut bell lines on this die).

In essence, just like all coin collecting, look at them for a while at shows etc., and then buy what looks good to you for the grade. Have Fun!!!

bushmaster8 · August 25, 2007 11:49PM

For white MS65 Frankies in general, I usually expect to pay about double the going rate of toned example.

Last week I sold this one for $250, a good deal for the buyer as it is a very high -end example:

When you make the jump from 65 to 66 in white , the multiplication factor can be far more than 2X. But it depends a lot on the specific date.

For example, 1953-S and 1955 are both relatively easy to find in white MS65. They can often be had for little or no premium over a toned coin.
But in MS66 it is a totally new ballgame. A white 53-S in 66 goes for $100-$200 and are easy to find. But the 1955 in white 66 is downright scarce! You would have to search for quite sometime, and would likely pay $400+. Add fBL's and you are looking at $1000 for a 1955.

I don't have a many of my white 66's imaged, because one white Frankie tends to look like the next.

There are bargains to be had though if you stay on top of all the selling venues.
I sold this 1949 very cheap on TT last week considering it's scarcity!

1907Quarter · August 26, 2007 12:07AM

they are pretty amazing coins up there past 64!

Windycity · August 26, 2007 12:49AM

Just sold this one on eBay... great coin. MS 65 FBL

jhdfla · August 26, 2007 1:44AM

I've collected toned mint set franklins for years, even before the slab era because I always loved the wild colors the old cardboard holders gave some of the coins. But as has been mentioned in this thread, for most issues the brilliant white pieces are much tougher. The toning sometimes tends to hide marks, especially some of the heavier mint set toning, and the marks on brilliant pieces tend to be much more noticable. Some of the issues tend to be more abraded too than others, the '53 Philly, '49-D for example which are really tough in true 65 or 66, and even more so for brilliant pieces. Many of the dates in the 60's also, even though there were tons minted, they were considered bullion for so many years that it's really tough to find a nice 60-D or '62 Philly for example not all marked the heck up. ( I picked up a memorable '62 Philly in 66 from Jim Sego this year at January FUN, but it had really great color). Beware of dipped out white Franklins too, some came with milk spots and there are guys who dip them to remove the spots. Considering that I collect mostly 19th century seated, the Franklins have still always been a fav of mine nonetheless even though considered as modern junk by some folks, not for the design so much which I think is uninspiring actually, but for the great color on some select mint set pieces, and the fact that there are some truly scarce issues in 65-66. As someone else mentioned, this is a great time to pick them up as prices have been on a steady decline for some time now, much like classic commems. Over the years perceptions on the rarity of dates in the series have changed as well, for example years ago the 49-s was touted as the rare date, but it's come to pass some of the issues in the early '60's are much tougher, esp. in fbl, I've always considered the 49-D and the 53 Philly to be really tough, and of course the rarity of the 53-s in fbl has always been recognized. I remember back at a FUN show in the early 80's a 49-s changing hands between I believe it was Jack Ehrmantraut and Danny Aveno for the then unheard of amount of $1000. Like I say things have changed now, the 49-s is not the rarity it once was perceived as. Back in those days you could buy wildly toned mint set coins for a song, they now trade for many multiples of sheet and still command strong money even as the series has experienced dramatic price declines over the past few years...

John

AU58WALKERS · August 26, 2007 6:03AM

Great pictures, guys.
thank you for the advice. I think this will be a fun set to pursue.

I think I am going to go for white ms65/66 (except for the 10 ms64's I bought from Tom Becker back in the eary 90's).

Man, please keep the pictures and advice coming.....and if y'all have any pq dups, I would love to have a shot.

Bill

ultimatecameo · August 26, 2007 8:42AM

Skyman

"In many regards it is a marketing gimmick"

I'd agree if we are talking about two very well struck Franklin halves, both with excellent bell lines, and for some obscure reason (maybe a tiny tick on the bell?) PCGS chooses not to FBL the coin. The current FBL definition in my opinion does not resemble the original definition, which was basically if the coin exhibited an overall solid strike, and you could see the bell lines with casual inspection, both top and bottom set, with no major hits on the lines, it should be FBL. There are coins coming out of PCGS now that should be no-brainer FBL that are not receiving the designation. These are great coins to pick up if you can get them at the non-FBL price!

And for Au58Walkers, a nice 65 is often a much better deal than a 66. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.

But if you do go after 66's, the best values for your numismatic dollar in this grade (i.e. rarest) are the Franklin halves minted 1955 and later. They are all rare in 66 white, and can usually be acquired for $250 - $1000. These are a great deal considering their rarity - if you can find them!

Many earlier issues are also rare in white 66, but in the condition we are talking about 1955 and later are my favorites. Good luck!

WoodenJefferson · August 26, 2007 9:17AM

Excellent information contained in this thread...kudos to the contributors.

bushmaster8 · August 26, 2007 11:35AM

<< <i> The current FBL definition in my opinion does not resemble the original definition... >>

Truer words were never spoken!!!

Are brilliant white franklins in ms65/66

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