Jayson Stark's Overrated List
markj111
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I just picked up his recent book re the most overrated players of all time. I have resisted the urge to look at each position. I must say that the three choices I have seen would at least be on my short list of most overrated.
RHP-Ryan
LHP-Koufax
1B-Garvey
RHP-Ryan
LHP-Koufax
1B-Garvey
0
Comments
But hey, that's why people have opinions.
<< <i>I just picked up his recent book re the most overrated players of all time. I have resisted the urge to look at each position. I must say that the three choices I have seen would at least be on my short list of most overrated.
RHP-Ryan
LHP-Koufax
1B-Garvey >>
I would have to seriously question the basis by which any of these three players could be considered overrated. Ryan and Koufax, especially Koufax, dominated the game. Garvey's statistics may not be worthy of the Hall of Fame but if you were there and watched him play and saw what he meant to his team he would never be on a list like this. Depending on your point of view though I suppose Phil Niekro, Dale Murphy, and Chipper Jones could also all be on this list. That wouldn't make you too popular in Atlanta though.
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denny neagle
yikes
j
RIP GURU
<< <i>anyone that considers Koufax overrated doesn't have a clue IMO >>
Agreed
<< <i>Koufax's peak value was tremendous, but his peak was quit short. If I had a choice between having either Koufax or Spahn for my team, I would take Spahn in a heartbeat. You would be a a little better for five years, I would be a lot better for the next fifteen. >>
and who has more world series rings? yeah, I'll take Koufax
RHP-Ryan
LHP-Koufax
1B-Garvey >>
Sometimes i wonder if people actually even watch baseball with some of the comments i read. Hell let's put Manlte up on that list...maybe Jackie Robinson...and while we're at it...i really think we should vote Julio Franco into the Hall...i mean he peaked for 10 years and is still playing after 20+ years
This is why i don't drink in the afternoon anymore...
mathew
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<< <i>I just picked up his recent book re the most overrated players of all time. I have resisted the urge to look at each position. I must say that the three choices I have seen would at least be on my short list of most overrated.
RHP-Ryan
LHP-Koufax
1B-Garvey >>
Yeah, two of the most dominating pitchers of all-time. Sure, they'd make my list. [/sarcasm]
Disclaimer: I'm VERY well aware of both pitchers stats, and I know why people would say this. I know how many HRs Ryan allowed, how many walks he had etc. BUT....consider:
7 no hitters
5300+ strikeouts
300+ wins
383k's in a single season
etc, etc, etc
Overrated? No.
LHP-Koufax
1B-Garvey
When it comes to Jason Stark and his east coast favoritism, it doesn't surprise me that all 3 of these players spent there playing days predominately on the west coast.
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
Great point about Stark. His regular shilling for all things New York, Boston, and Philadelphia causes me to vomit in my mouth on occasion. But at least he's given up trying to make his voice sound exactly like Peter Gammons, which was his bit a few years ago.
Ron
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"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
Big Deal. Jason is crunching numbers against the best of the best.
Ryan was the most dominate pitcher I ever saw in 40 years of going to games. He could still hit 98/100 MPH after thowing 130 pitches. When he was on his game. He just flat out blew hitters away like nobody else could. I saw him toss a one hitter once. Second/third guy up on the Bosox got a bleeder of a single and that was it for the game. At one point he struck out 9 batters in a row. Nobody could touch him
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
<< <i>$51 million, 19 wins total 23 losses for 2 years in colorado!!!! >>
I'd completely forgotten about Denny Neagle! If someone asked me that as a trivia question I'd have guessed David Nied or Mike Hampton.
With regards to Nolan Ryan, I have a book that's 20 years old called "Baseball Confidential" which was a book of of responses of surveys passed out to major leaguers at the time. Their most feared hitter? You guessed it. To quote Whitey Herzog, "Nolan has more effect on a team than any other opposing pitcher. That's because the players think about facing him the day before he pitches, the day he pitches, and the day after he pitches. On Monday they say 'Oh shi*, Ryan is pitching on Tuesday.' On Tuesday they say, "Oh shi*, look at his fastball.' And on Wednesday they say, 'Wow, did you see how fast he was?"
As for bad contracts. The Dodgers have the Rockies beat in a landslide. The following stats cost the Dodgers 5 years and $57 million dollars. 9 wins and 15 losses.
Year Ag Tm Lg W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
2001 29 LAD NL 4 7 16 16 0 0 0 0 94.7 89 62 54 11 47 91 6 10 416 0 0 5.13 4.01 78 1.437
2002 30 LAD NL DID NOT PLAY
2003 31 LAD NL 4 4 10 10 0 0 0 0 60.3 58 29 27 6 25 67 0 3 261 0 1 4.03 4.03 100 1.376
2004 32 LAD NL 1 4 60 0 0 0 9 1 50.7 43 25 25 5 36 63 0 5 227 2 0 4.44 4.14 93 1.559
2005 33 LAD NL DID NOT PLAY
Surely he must have earned that money before he signed the big contract, right? Sure, 39 Wins and 45 losses in 6 years.
Of course this is the infamous Darren Dreifort. He really proved the Moneyball theory of drafting college pitchers rather than high school players. He was d=rafted right after some kid named Alex Rodriguez.
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And anyone who has pitched in any sort of organized baseball league for any length of time as a starter.......the discussion about Nolan begins and ends at the number 7. Every time you step out on that mound, you want to get everyone out. If you get everyone out, they can't win. If you get everyone out, you have shown the maximum amount of dominance on that day. If you get everyone out, you could not have helped your team out more. Pitchers...back me up here! When that first hit would happen and you lost the possibility of the no-hitter, you die a little bit. That is what being a competitor is all about.
If you turn those seven no-hitters into one-hitters, he's still an awesome pitcher, historically. But those seven no-hitters are for real, and that makes him legendary in THAT sense. I'm not sure anyone would argue that he was the all around best pitcher ever considering all factors. But so what? That doesn't make him any less legendary. These guys are remembered for wowing people. These are the guys the little kids imitate when they throw balls against the brick wall. That is worth something.
If you are all about greatness over time, maybe Koufax and Ryan don't measure up. Pedro will be thought of the same way, probably. But to be called "overrated"?!?? I don't know. It seems so relative to me. Once we all agree on the definitions of all things, maybe then we can talk about who is rated where and whether they deserve that spot or not. In the meantime, I'll rate the guys who wowed me the highest.
...and don't even get me started on wins. What kid is out there right now, pitching against a wall, doing the play by play, and imagining that he is being pulled after 6 and two thirds innings with a 6-4 lead. Who celebrates that? Wins are nice, but they are a team stat.
thats a ridiculous statement. Spahn was one of the greatest players of all time. Rings are a reflection of the whole team, not just one person. Perfect example:
Barry Bonds has no rings, Dave Justice does.
Ill take Diamond Dave! Seeing things a bit clearer now?
Koufax had the greatest five year stretch in history. Yet there are a few pitchers in history who had five years at the top of the league. Plus at least another decade of being very good. Maybe not even the best pitcher of his generation
<< <i>"and who has more world series rings? yeah, I'll take Koufax"
thats a ridiculous statement. Spahn was one of the greatest players of all time. Rings are a reflection of the whole team, not just one person. Perfect example:
Barry Bonds has no rings, Dave Justice does.
Ill take Diamond Dave! Seeing things a bit clearer now? >>
you really figured that one out didn't you. My comment was intended to be as most of my posts, sarcastic. Spahn at his best was no Sandy Koufax, just ask former players or people who watched both.
<< <i>Of course this is the infamous Darren Dreifort. He really proved the Moneyball theory of drafting college pitchers rather than high school players. >>
To be fair, Dreifort had a lot of arm troubles that he was never able to get over. His talent was undeniable and he will always be one of the best pitchers to have played for Wichita State.
<< <i>$51 million, 19 wins total 23 losses for 2 years in colorado!!!!
denny neagle
yikes
j >>
julen forgot to mention:
1 hooker (at least)
Koufax was 40-42 after his 1st 5 yrs in the bigs
then had 6 super yrs........6 great yrs is not a HOF'er in my opinion.........
take any HOF'er & compare their best 6 yrs to Koufax's......I don't know if he will be near the top
if arthritis didn't curtail his career no doubt he would have put up a monster career
& for Garvey, once I was having a conversation with reggie jackson in the mid 80's & we were discussing who was going into the Hall down the road, I mentioned Garvey & Reggie laughed & said in NO uncertain terms NO way he's going to Cooperstown unless he buys a ticket at the admission window...good player but NOT HOF calibre, one of dozens of solid players who will be discussed for Cooperstown but NEVER EVER get in
The big problem with baseball fans is they think anyone they like should be a HOF'er like a Roger maris
A HOF'er has to play a minimum of ten yrs & has to be the best of his era
Koufax won three unanimous Cy Young awards when they only gave one out to the entire league. How many pitchers in history were that much better than anyone else three times? Maybe Martinez at his best, maybe Grove or Walter Johnson, possibly Maddux. No one else. Then consider that Koufax still had three other All-Star seasons. Then four other years where he still helped the Dodgers. The Hall-of-Fame has inducted plenty of players who did less over an equally short time. Sandberg didn't give the Cubs much more than 10 years. Kiner and Hack Wilson. Dizzy Dean and Don Drysdale made the Hall-of-Fame
The real test for Koufax is that there is not a single pitcher not in the Hall-of-Fame that did more to help their team win. Bert Blyleven makes a case that the same can't be said about Ryan. But he falls well short on the Fame side
<< <i>A HOF'er has to play a minimum of ten yrs & has to be the best of his era >>
So only one player from each era is allowed to be in the Hall-of-Fame, according to this?
I don't think the Hall-of-Fame has ever worked like that
Considering Morgan, Schmidt, Yastrzemski, Seaver, Brett, Yount, and Rose, I doubt even Reggie Jackson could be considered the best of his era. Yet all of them are from the same generation and all of them are in the Hall-of-Fame (along with Palmer, Perry, Carlton, Carew. . . ) Koufax played for longer than 10 years and was absolutely no worse than the third best pitcher of his era, and more likely first or second
P.S. Why is some new guy using Stone's picture thing next to his name? I don't think that's right.
I did pay $500 to have that picture tattooed on my leg. If it's not right, it will be changed -- the digital picture, not the tattoo