Where are the Deep Cameo experts? Take a look at this!

Boom · July 4, 2007 6:03PM

I remember Russ making mention of this very sort of phenomenon. Maybe he can look at this and enlighten us as to what is going on here.

Man, this IS scary. To think that this is manmade and made it past the graders here boggles the mind.

Boom · July 4, 2007 6:18PM

08HALA20 · July 4, 2007 6:25PM

Hi Boom,

Here is a link to a thread on artificial frost.

Russ-artificial frost

It is scary.

Joe

Boom · July 4, 2007 6:39PM

Thanks Joe. I think I recognize the seller and if it's who I think it is I must say that I am shocked that he hasn't sent it back to PCGS rather than off it on some person in just a few hours. I HAD posted a lonk but deleted it in case something strange is going on as this would definitely be way out of character of him.

Cameonut · July 4, 2007 8:09PM

The reason why these make it past the graders is that they are (were) extremely hard to detect when originally submitted. The problems don't show until much later. I bought the coin below and it did not exhibit the telltale signs of artifical frost until many months after purchase. In my case, PCGS bought the coin back a couple of years ago and made me whole. This is one reason why the vast majority of my coins are in PCGS holders.

The cert number of my coin was 21037572 - that suggests that there is an extremely good chance that this coin was doctored by the same person as the coin pictured.

Sorry for the crummy pics - I took them in a hurry before I sent the coin back. I only wish I had taken better pics of this coin and the others I have found that had been doctored.

RickMilauskas · July 4, 2007 8:15PM

WOW...that is quite an eye-opener!!

Boom · July 4, 2007 9:41PM

Hey Rick. Hope you're doing well. I'm glad you're still here.

I had written the seller ... I THINK we know him so out of respect I didn't mention his Name.

Sure enough he wrote back and was polite but for a collector with a great eye he cannot see this problem.

I told him about some banter we had here on this very topic as of late and that the coin obviously had been tampered with AT SOME POINT IN TIME and that I didn't think HE would do anything like this.

As cameonut just said, I mentioned to him that this does not happen overnight & that he needed to send it to PCGS and get it off the Market. I hope nobody bids or buys that thing and that he does the right thing ... for everyones' sake.

We shall see.

Good Day,
BOOM

Tiny · July 4, 2007 9:52PM

I don't see the problem with the coin. I have cut many cameos out proof sets
with that same color or haze as you might say. It is a way of toning in MO

Boom · July 4, 2007 10:21PM

Tiny, are you serious? You mean to say that you see NO PROBLEM with the coin in the Original Post or the one above by a Cameo Expert?

Boom · July 4, 2007 11:32PM

RUSS, have a look at this. What do you say?

TorinoCobra71 · July 4, 2007 11:37PM

Sure is FOGGY - er - HAZY around here. Could it be that it is in a 67 holder for being hazy? maybe a quick RUSS DIP™ will clear it up so that it can make it into a 69DCAM holder.....

TorinoCobra71

segoja · July 4, 2007 11:41PM

The 55 in the first post most likely hazed up in the PCGS holder. If it was poorly dipped and not rinsed properly....AND submitted in the old PVC flips, it could easily have made it past the graders and then spotted.

I've seen that happen many times.

As for artificialy frost....I don;t think so. How can you get it on all the devices including lettering and not have any of it spill over to the fields????

A Russ dip and it's back in business.

Cameonut · July 4, 2007 11:47PM

It is hard to show the artificial frost in these pics. When you look at it under a glass, you can see that the frost does not look quite right. Initially, it looks good enough to get past the graders but then the frost bleeds into the fields and starts to look fuzzy and unnatural. When it bleeds into the fields, it is a dead giveaway.

As far as giving it a dip, it will come clean and look much better, but much of the frost will also disappear making it difficult to get it into a dcam holder at PCGS.

This is the third early 50's quarter I have seen this done to. I have owned two of them. One was bought back by PCGS, the other was returned to me and downgraded to a cameo (but included a check for the difference).

The holder numbers are a dead giveaway on this one.

CarlWohlforth · July 4, 2007 11:50PM

It doesn't look like the haze I see on coins directly from mint packaging.

It is circumstantial evidence to note that Cameonut's coin was bought back by PCGS as a problem coin AND that the serial number of his coin is 1 number apart from the example Boom notes AND that it is the same year denomination. However those facts sure make be suspicious of this coin.

Boom · July 5, 2007 12:29AM

I feel for the present owner and know him to be a man of Integrity, He certainly is not responsible for this. I refuse to believe it and because of this, when I saw who the seller was (the liting ended with no buyer and it ran it's course with no interference) I deleted what had been a link in my OP. I had no desire to blast a man of such outstaning moral turpitude and could feel his genuine belief that it was just "toning that way."

No harsh words were exchanged as there was no need for any. I mentioned that recently Russ had spoken on this very issue and the he should consider sending it to PCGS to be taken off the Market as PCGS would definitely make him whole, in this instance.

I'm confident he will, especially if it is brought to his attention that another one exists and was from the same submission, being off by 1 number. Maybe if someone brings this thread and Cameonut's Proof to his attention along with Russ' recent say on this very topic, it would convince him of the fact that odds are it IS doctored.

Russ · July 5, 2007 12:39AM

The coin is artificially frosted. In fact, it even comes from the same submission as two others I've encountered.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · July 5, 2007 12:45AM

Here's another one from that submission:

Russ, NCNE

Russ · July 5, 2007 12:57AM

<< I had no desire to blast a man of such outstaning moral turpitude >>

BTW, Boom, moral turpitude is a bad thing.

Russ, NCNE

StrikeOutXXX · July 5, 2007 1:03AM

<< The coin is artificially frosted. In fact, it even comes from the same submission as two others I've encountered.

Russ, NCNE >>

I am glad PCGS does the buyback thing to make owners whole, but do they ever go after the creaters/submitters? It would seem with 3 coins in the same submission, they would have a pretty good idea who did this, or at least where to start looking. Do they send private investigators to do interviews, flag that persons future orders, or anything of the sort?

Russ · July 5, 2007 1:04AM

<< 1955 PROOF Quarter...PCGS PR67DCam...Beautiful Toning >>

Russ, NCNE

Russ · July 5, 2007 1:06AM

<< but do they ever go after the creaters/submitters? >>

They do, indeed. The first time I encountered one of these, almost five years ago, they told me they knew exactly who the submitter was and that they do pursue them. Not always possible to recover anything, though.

Russ, NCNE

Boom · July 5, 2007 1:26AM

Thank you Russ.

Cameonut · July 5, 2007 3:01AM

<< The coin is artificially frosted. In fact, it even comes from the same submission as two others I've encountered. >>

There you go Boom - Russ has spoken.

Man Law!

Russ · July 5, 2007 3:22AM

I just confirmed your assessment.

Russ, NCNE

fc · July 5, 2007 3:31AM

interesting post to say the least.

grabba · July 5, 2007 3:39AM

Great thread and very informative. We can always use more pictures of artificial frost to help discern the differences.

Thanks for the pictures.

Russ · July 5, 2007 3:46AM

<< We can always use more pictures of artificial frost to help discern the differences. >>

Here you go:

Russ, NCNE

grabba · July 5, 2007 4:11AM

<< 

<< We can always use more pictures of artificial frost to help discern the differences. >>

Here you go:
Russ, NCNE >>

Is that the one you just picked up?

Cameonut · July 5, 2007 4:13AM

To add a few words on what to look for since the pictures that we have are all after they have 'turned' in the holders.

When I first bought three artificially toned coins (BTW - all from different sellers and venues, but all in PCGS holders) it was very difficult to detect the artificial frost. The coins looked natural and worthy of the grade assigned. It wasn't until after months and months of storage that the coins began to change their appearance. On the copper cent, the frost just began to look 'fuzzy' and there was clearly something bleeding into the fields. A very unnatural look - most people would not buy a coin that looked like that - no matter who's holder it was in as it was that fugly. Far different than the jewel I thought I bought.

A 1950 silver quarter was given some 'help' on the obverse only, the reverse was already cameo and there was no need to doctor it. When submitted to PCGS for review, they conserved it and sent it back to me with a 'no cameo' grade and a check. The coin is a nice coin - it just misses cameo. Apparently the artificial frost is easily removed.

The reverse of the 55 quarter I posted earlier in this thread was given much more 'help' than the obverse, but you can see the unnatural bluish haze and 'fuzziness' beginning to form. Also note the unusual 'frost breaks' and the mottled frost. This is not what you usually see in cameos - even right out of the packaging. Anyway, by then I had seen a couple of problem coins and knew what the outcome would be so off to PCGS it went.

This is not to say that all coins with bluish haze are doctored. As stated by others, it is often encountered on proof silver coins right out of the mint packaging. That type of haze is usually on the fields and devices (actually more often in the fields in my experience), it isn't concentrated on the devices like the artificial frosting is.

grabba · July 5, 2007 4:17AM

What is used exactly to artificially frost a coin?

I don't have a clue.

Rampage · July 5, 2007 6:24AM

With all these coins from the same submissions it is too bad PCGS cannot track the submitter and take action. Maybe she/he is still submitting bogus stuff?

Boom · July 5, 2007 2:45PM

Oh, I'm pretty confident they can look back thru the records and find out who it was.

Russ · August 6, 2007 9:01AM

<< I mentioned that recently Russ had spoken on this very issue and the he should consider sending it to PCGS to be taken off the Market as PCGS would definitely make him whole, in this instance.

I'm confident he will, especially if it is brought to his attention that another one exists and was from the same submission, being off by 1 number. >>

Apparently, he didn't believe you, Boom.

Russ, NCNE

shmort6552 · August 6, 2007 9:07AM

Like a lot of others, I am wondering exactly what is used to do this. Is it a chemical reaction with something? Something that can be done by anyone?

Last, is there a fairly reliable to detect this for those of us who don't have the experience of Russ and others??

Bruce

TorinoCobra71 · August 6, 2007 9:07AM

Now I know who stuck the Hand Grenade in BOOMs underwear............

TorinoCobra71

Mark · August 6, 2007 9:08AM

Well, at least the coin probably hasn't lost any of its "beauty" in the month since these posts started....

a039 · August 7, 2007 10:45AM

Where are the Deep Cameo experts? Take a look at this!

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