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A FC Productions, 1845O L.H.E. Analysis, BAB sponsored research. (log into heritage first)
fc
Posts: 12,805 ✭✭✭
I only have one coin next to me besides my wheat pennies so I thought I would review this coin.
Before I show any pictures I would like to discuss the coin. For those who are impatient, please just scroll down and view the visual part of the post.
This 1845-O Liberty Half Eagle is graded by PCGS as a VF35. I remember paying around 550 for it from a forum member. Winter estimates that there are 85-95 1845-O half eagles extant. The total populations from both NGC (108) and PCGS (77) is 185. One should also note ANACS has 6 half eagles and ICG has 1 half eagle in Heritage's archives. Heritage has sold a total of 34 of this date/mint in about 20 years.
Winter also says that the 1845-O typically comes with "extensive abrasions and this is an extremely hard coin to find without deep clusters of marks". I do not have Winter's experience but I do have Heritage's coin archive which is quite impressive and provides a sampling of 1845Os over a period of time.
But before I show the pictures, here are some more "facts" and interesting information most of us use in some way.
Here is a description of the coin when it was for sale.:
A good example of how PCGS net grades a coin...and one that I have no problem net grading. First off, the coin has a mintage
of 41,000 pieces. PCGS has graded a total of 77 coins. This coin has AU details but was lightly wiped some time ago. Prior to
circulation it was fully prooflike, and still retains those qualities in the protected areas. The eye appeal is quite lovely. The only
mark that can be seen without a glass is a moderate mark on the right facing wing of the eagle. It is old, not shiny (nor are the
hairlines, which have to be tilted just right to see). Overall, just a great coin. If this were a barber quarter...how much do you think
it would bring? For reference, a piece of garbage ANACS XF40 details, Ex. Jewelry coin sold earlier this year for 400$. Do not miss
this coin.
A quote from stman who had to state what he did because quite a few people were saying it was original, "Not a "Bad" coin...... but I'll go against the grain (as usual) and say it's obviously been at least wiped, if not cleaned. I have no idea what the grading company would call it. After all, the top 2 don't net grade."
A quote from daveg, "This coin is a great example of the balancing act that a southern gold collector has to go through each time he sees a coin. There are probably only a small handful of "original" coins available in whatever grade we've targeted, so you either have to pay up for a nicer coin or accept a coin with some problems. (And, of course, just because it's in a PCGS/NGC slab doesn't mean the coin is problem-free.)"
PCGS price guide
VF-400 EF-675 AU-5500 60-11000 61-14000 62-19000 63-29000
Using Heritage's archive I can see that the VF price is about right, while the EF is a bit low. The AU price is in the right ballpark but Heritage has never sold a MS 1845O. Coinfacts.com does not even have a picture of this date for me to look at, ussually one of the finest known :-(
So how would an organization like BAB make a judgement on my coin? Do they have the expertise like a Winter to do this type of specialized grading that is needed for Southern gold?
Lets view some VF coins from the Heritage archives. Here is a link to the heritage archives that I am using to create this post. Create an account and enjoy this post more fully. Link to archives.
sold for 345 in 2006.
sold for 242 in 2003.
sold for 517 in 2005.
sold for 430 in 2001.
Well then, those were your choices of buying a VF 1845O from heritage. I wish I was collecting in 2001 eh? Imagine Heritage has never sold one in a lesser condition. We are going to have to work our way up from here to get an idea if I made a mistake buying this coin (i still like it, my only O), if PCGS made a mistake grading this coin, and would BAB certify it? (Would BAB certify any of this date? Maybe a handful? Lets continue).
Please take note I can only post the coins that have pictures available. Quite a few of these 1845Os were sold during the 1990s and Heritage was not saving pictures back then.
sold for 2760 in 2004.
sold for 1466 in 2000.
sold for 920 in 2003.
That is it for sales with pictures in XF. I like how the pics keep going so I will continue with all the rest Heritage has up to AU58. A total of 13 XF were sold by Heritage making it by far the easiest grade to pick up but very few sold recently in the last 10 years.
sold for 2070 in 2003.
sold for 4025 in 2001.
sold for 6325 in 2004.
sold for 1500 in 2007.
sold for 2070 in 2007.
sold for 2450 in 2000.
sold for 2415 in 2003.
sold for 4025 in 2006.
sold for 6037 in 2003.
sold for 6037 in 2005.
This should give you a much better idea of what choices you may or may not have over the next 20 years in the way of 1845O half eagles. In my next post I will show my coin because I am worried I will lose all this typing :-) cut and paste time.
Before I show any pictures I would like to discuss the coin. For those who are impatient, please just scroll down and view the visual part of the post.
This 1845-O Liberty Half Eagle is graded by PCGS as a VF35. I remember paying around 550 for it from a forum member. Winter estimates that there are 85-95 1845-O half eagles extant. The total populations from both NGC (108) and PCGS (77) is 185. One should also note ANACS has 6 half eagles and ICG has 1 half eagle in Heritage's archives. Heritage has sold a total of 34 of this date/mint in about 20 years.
Winter also says that the 1845-O typically comes with "extensive abrasions and this is an extremely hard coin to find without deep clusters of marks". I do not have Winter's experience but I do have Heritage's coin archive which is quite impressive and provides a sampling of 1845Os over a period of time.
But before I show the pictures, here are some more "facts" and interesting information most of us use in some way.
Here is a description of the coin when it was for sale.:
A good example of how PCGS net grades a coin...and one that I have no problem net grading. First off, the coin has a mintage
of 41,000 pieces. PCGS has graded a total of 77 coins. This coin has AU details but was lightly wiped some time ago. Prior to
circulation it was fully prooflike, and still retains those qualities in the protected areas. The eye appeal is quite lovely. The only
mark that can be seen without a glass is a moderate mark on the right facing wing of the eagle. It is old, not shiny (nor are the
hairlines, which have to be tilted just right to see). Overall, just a great coin. If this were a barber quarter...how much do you think
it would bring? For reference, a piece of garbage ANACS XF40 details, Ex. Jewelry coin sold earlier this year for 400$. Do not miss
this coin.
A quote from stman who had to state what he did because quite a few people were saying it was original, "Not a "Bad" coin...... but I'll go against the grain (as usual) and say it's obviously been at least wiped, if not cleaned. I have no idea what the grading company would call it. After all, the top 2 don't net grade."
A quote from daveg, "This coin is a great example of the balancing act that a southern gold collector has to go through each time he sees a coin. There are probably only a small handful of "original" coins available in whatever grade we've targeted, so you either have to pay up for a nicer coin or accept a coin with some problems. (And, of course, just because it's in a PCGS/NGC slab doesn't mean the coin is problem-free.)"
PCGS price guide
VF-400 EF-675 AU-5500 60-11000 61-14000 62-19000 63-29000
Using Heritage's archive I can see that the VF price is about right, while the EF is a bit low. The AU price is in the right ballpark but Heritage has never sold a MS 1845O. Coinfacts.com does not even have a picture of this date for me to look at, ussually one of the finest known :-(
So how would an organization like BAB make a judgement on my coin? Do they have the expertise like a Winter to do this type of specialized grading that is needed for Southern gold?
Lets view some VF coins from the Heritage archives. Here is a link to the heritage archives that I am using to create this post. Create an account and enjoy this post more fully. Link to archives.
sold for 345 in 2006.
sold for 242 in 2003.
sold for 517 in 2005.
sold for 430 in 2001.
Well then, those were your choices of buying a VF 1845O from heritage. I wish I was collecting in 2001 eh? Imagine Heritage has never sold one in a lesser condition. We are going to have to work our way up from here to get an idea if I made a mistake buying this coin (i still like it, my only O), if PCGS made a mistake grading this coin, and would BAB certify it? (Would BAB certify any of this date? Maybe a handful? Lets continue).
Please take note I can only post the coins that have pictures available. Quite a few of these 1845Os were sold during the 1990s and Heritage was not saving pictures back then.
sold for 2760 in 2004.
sold for 1466 in 2000.
sold for 920 in 2003.
That is it for sales with pictures in XF. I like how the pics keep going so I will continue with all the rest Heritage has up to AU58. A total of 13 XF were sold by Heritage making it by far the easiest grade to pick up but very few sold recently in the last 10 years.
sold for 2070 in 2003.
sold for 4025 in 2001.
sold for 6325 in 2004.
sold for 1500 in 2007.
sold for 2070 in 2007.
sold for 2450 in 2000.
sold for 2415 in 2003.
sold for 4025 in 2006.
sold for 6037 in 2003.
sold for 6037 in 2005.
This should give you a much better idea of what choices you may or may not have over the next 20 years in the way of 1845O half eagles. In my next post I will show my coin because I am worried I will lose all this typing :-) cut and paste time.
0
Comments
are similair to my "problem coin".
ok, time to get my pictures in order.
Please take my word for it, that in hand without magnification, this coin is rather pleasant. Some angles it looks awesome, but at one or two other angles you can see the old cleaning.
Here is a link to my webpage that has an index of 6 more very large pictures that try to capture what is going on with this coin.
http://boston.g4.net/coins/1845O/
So now you know basically as much as me! Experts of course know more but I truly wonder how much research people put into coins???
I am ready to hear what people think.
My coin should probably not get a BAB sticker?
Did I overpay? Should I keep it considering I have never bought a coin for more then 750 and will probably not get anything nicer in the next years?
Should PCGS have body bagged this coin and/or should I send it back to them?
Your thoughts? thanks.
I liked the coin from the beginning. Despite the ancient cleaning, it has a nice appearance, from the photo.
The best one that I have seen was the ex-Bass coin (PCGS MS-61) in the Pinnacle collection. When Reece upgraded his coin, I was lucky to get the opportunity to buy his cast-off PCGS AU-58. I have a photo of it, but it is not very good.
One has to wonder when half eagles will take off. When one considers how much money people spend on coins, what is the big deal about picking up a challenging set like L.H.E.?
Individuals are known to do it because dealers on occasion sell their basically almost complete set.
i have a feeling that would get the BAB A sticker too.
i can see how the 8 is repunched and how the denticles just below
the 8 is like mine. not quite struck well enough right down there.
"Winter estimates that there are 85-95 1845-O half eagles extant."
"PCGS price guide
VF-400 EF-675 AU-5500 60-11000 61-14000 62-19000 63-29000"
Even if Winter's estimate is off and we double the amount of coins, this would still seem like a low number of available coins, making this a truly rare coin.
The differences in value quoted in the price guide from VF and EF to AU are astounding - $675 then jumping to $5,500? Wow. I'm not a southern gold collector, but maybe I should be! Seems like an EF example of this coin packs a lot of value!
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<< <i>Great post! Two things caught my eye...
"Winter estimates that there are 85-95 1845-O half eagles extant."
"PCGS price guide
VF-400 EF-675 AU-5500 60-11000 61-14000 62-19000 63-29000"
Even if Winter's estimate is off and we double the amount of coins, this would still seem like a low number of available coins, making this a truly rare coin.
The differences in value quoted in the price guide from VF and EF to AU are astounding - $675 then jumping to $5,500? Wow. I'm not a southern gold collector, but maybe I should be! Seems like an EF example of this coin packs a lot of value! >>
PCGS price guide is way off for circulated southern gold
<< <i>PCGS price guide is way off for circulated southern gold >>
Fair enough...If I'd paid closer attention to the actual auction prices for the coins I would have seen that.
Clearly PCGS price of 675 for EF is off. But still, I think EF would be a great "optimum collector grade" for these coins..if enough exist in that grade given their rarity.
on overall eye appeal. You can see an older holder above went for moon money and strikes me as choice.
Way out of my league.
I have a newp coming up i cannot wait to get my paws on.
I hope to do another post like this because you can really get to
know a date/mint while putting this all together.
<< <i>I hope to do another post like this because you can really get to
know a date/mint while putting this all together. >>
Looking forward to it! Thanks for the post.
looks like this rare coin was shuffled from dealer to dealer
over the last years and keeps going up in price.
where will it ever end and why do people buy such expensive
coins only to sell them minutes, er months, er a few years later?
just thought i would add to this thread so it keeps track of
these coins. i wish to compare pictures/price etc over time.
the coin sure looks dead luster wise for an au53.
I used to own this coin and sold it to fc, so you can see in the sellers description what I thought of the coin.
To answer your question if you overpayed or not, the answer is certainly not. You could put that coin in a heritage auction right now and make AT LEAST 10% after the juice. I specifically left some money on the table on this coin because you were a new customer, a new(er) collector and a new board member. I always try to leave a bit of money on the table if possible. It is a good business practice. Bottom line...dont worry about what you paid. You are in the coin at a very good level.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com