a true price for this coin should be in the 45,000 range.
Without carefully evaluating the coin in person, I cannot really comment on the value. However, I would point out that the PCGS price guide is simply a "guide," and a given coin might be worth substantially more or less.
One of my favorite coins from my early dollar set was this AU58 flowing hair dollar. Those who have seen the coin in person can tell you the internet image did the coin no justice. That coin is a truly marvelous PQ specimen. While the images might suggest the coin has noticeable wear, I do not believe it actually ever circulated. Due to the nature of the dies at the time of striking (after having been damaged by a heavy die clash), there was no way for the coin to be fully struck on the high points. Consequently, there are luster breaks in those areas, and that gives the impression of wear, which brings about the PCGS grade of AU58. When that coin sold at auction two years ago, it realized $64,400. If it was available today for the PCGS guide price of $45,000, I would snap it up in a second, but I would probably face stiff competition before even getting the chance.
I just don't think we can fully evaluate the subject coin on its grade or value just on the basis of comparing two internet images and reviewing a published price guide.
Tough to tell for sure from the image, but I like the look of the NGC MS61 example better. It would be pretty to view those two coins in-hand side by side.
Holy cow, you guys are rough. Coins get "improved" all the time and end up upgrading. The coin is what it is, and is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it regardless of what grade or whos holder it's in. The coin is accurately imaged and described in it's current state. My personal oppinion is, the coin is an AU-55, and should bring money accordingly. The group of collectors dropping this kind of money, whether it's 90,000 or 50,000 for this kind of coin are a select few, and this select few will determine the value of this coin, as it should be.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
My guess is that dealers that deal in large quanities of expensive coins sometimes make mistakes, too. Anaconda apologized. Honestly, I don't even think he needs to do so to maintain credibility. Credibility is based on years of buying and selling primo stuff with a positive rep! >>
Ummm...credibility is built slowly or lost quickly with every positive or negative transaction. Anaconda pulled the auction and apologized because he HAS to. And I don't appreciate the casual way in which he dismissed this as if it was a minor mistake either. How would you feel if you had purchased the coin only to find out it was grossly overpriced? I think you would need a bit more than a hug.
Ummm...credibility is built slowly or lost quickly with every positive or negative transaction. Anaconda pulled the auction and apologized because he HAS to. And I don't appreciate the casual way in which he dismissed this as if it was a minor mistake either. How would you feel if you had purchased the coin only to find out it was grossly overpriced? I think you would need a bit more than a hug.
Have you checked out Anaconda's feedback? I'd say it's pretty good (understatement). If I HAD purchased the coin, I would have had the opportunity to look at it in-hand and decide if I wanted to keep it....just like anybody else. I could return it! But if I purchase it for 90k and keep it, then that would also be my choice.
People who spend 90k for coins generally have a pretty good idea about grading.
I agree. If im going to spend that kind of money on that kind of coin Im going to do major research on the coin and probably easily find out its history. You would be a fool not to. I also would not buy a coin like that from a digital photo. I think the buyer of a coin like that has some responsibility here.
<< <i>I agree. If im going to spend that kind of money on that kind of coin Im going to do major research on the coin and probably easily find out its history. You would be a fool not to. I also would not buy a coin like that from a digital photo. I think the buyer of a coin like that has some responsibility here. >>
Here we go, blame the collector. It's all his fault.
What it comes down to me for me is this:
There are two kinds of coin dealers: those that are professional numismatists and those that are just coin sellers. I generally prefer to engage the former, and when I do, there is a certain level of expertise, hand-holding, advice, service, and back-up that I expect. I also expect to pay more for the bells and whistles. When I engage the latter, I expect little or no service, no hand-holding, expertise, service, or buyback possibility. I just want the coin that I want at my price. The problem occurs when you do not know who you are dealing with, as the coin seller may masquerade as the professional numismatist. I am not saying this to diss Anaconda, but my expectation in buying a $90,000 coin would be that I would be dealing with a professional numismatist who provides meets my expectations as listed above, not some coin seller who is just trying to jam me with someone else's coin.
>>>> The cycle goes round and round, everybody in the business wins - oops - except the collectors and the coin's originality.
in 1986 when the tpg started the intent was to lessen the arguements as to the grade of a coin....note the key word lessen....(sounds better than stop anc loser to reality as we see now ) ...this was needed when you had market swings where as pre 1986 a coin ...for example...in an up market there was a lot less argurments about a coins grade...in a down market there was a lot more arguements.....
there biz plan was to make a 100 million ....however in 1990 something changed and i saw it right away....and i have thought this now for 17 years.....and i have found im right
what the market wanted next was a difference in value between coins in the same grade...as there most certainly was a difference and still is today...back then sometime 20%...some time 100%....and even 1000%....as the demand for great looking coins increased and left the not so good looking ones behind....for example a monster toned morgan in 66 vrs a white 66 ...same date...same grade.....the fact was smart people would pay double or more which eventually morphed into to sometimes 1000%
enter gradeflation....in order to show the price difference the tpg took a % away from surface preservation ( lets say 5% or 10%.. what ever ) and put it into the eye appeal %....why did they do that...BECAUSE THATS WHAT THE MARKET WANTED....its my 66 would have 10 times the people wanting it than yours type of thing....therefore its worth twice what yours is...or 10 times...again what ever...but you get my point
this phenom then gave them a bright idea which was to take a 100 million biz plan and turn it into a 500 million biz plan
then enter the registry.....i can assure you that there are registry sets worth 100,000 and registry sets worth 500,000 both with each of the coins being the exact same grade....how so??? the look...pq...flashy...premium....upgradeable...what ever...but THAT IS A FACT......i have had it happen to me where as some newbee bought a ton of swill( for the grade ) and gets a coin or 2 with a higher grade and then goes around saying his set is better than mine.....( personally to me....the quality of a set is determoned by the number of people who would pay for it and what they would pay...not the numerical grade....its called putting your money where your mouth is...thats the way it is to me..maybe not you but i think the majority)
so now the next morph..and final one to date...which btw makes the tpg even more money....
ranking coins....yep...ranking coins....that what they are doing....slowly pushing up the better coins into a higher grade and leaving the lesser coins behind
so what does this mean...its means if you were larry shepherd and you had the best there was in 1990....its still the best today ( albeit a coin does come out of the woodwork once in a while )....however when larry owned it it was a 66 and the highest graded....today its a 68 and the highest graded....
everyone has always heard one of the keys to being successful in this hobby is have a great eye...duh.....great contacts....duh
however there is another which i am very good at and that is having time in the market......yep ..ive been here a long time....while id like to think i have all the above....but the real key for me is...i know what the great coins looks like.....dont laugh and say duh.....when i saw the last word oregon....i knew it and bought it....when i saw the last word washington carver i knew it....and btw its the only "d" mint graded by any service ever....when i saw a monster 93cc in a 64 holder and said to myself this is a moose...i bougth it ( and yes it upgraded 1st time in for a nice 35,000 profit )....when ....ah heck i could go on and on...but you get the point
the secret here is to undertstand where the coin your looking at fits into the population of it...and the hard part is figuring out what to pay because these coins dont trade at sheet levels
one more ditty about this
i had a friend of mine colecting bust dollars....he wanted this coin a dealer friend of mine had...pop 3 none higher....anyway the dealers was as sharp as they come...he paid 160,000 for this coin and tried it 50 times over 2 years...if it worked it would be worth 350,000...anyway he gave up...my friend balked at his 190,000 asking price...i said your nuts...so he makes 30,000 ...the dealer spent 5,000 on fees and 20,000 in holding costs....its the best there is hands down.....well i talked him into it....and guess what...2 years later when he sent in his whole set....bingo upgrade....and he now has 190,000 in a coin worht 350,000
all because he knew where the coin fit in relation to the population
as once more....the market wants their coins ranked
ok now let the sheet hit the fan from the nasayers..
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>People who spend 90k for coins generally have a pretty good idea about grading.
Why do you say that? All it means is they spend a lot of money on coins. >>
In fact, the opposite is true. Many of the high rollers are actually the least knowledgeable because they're too busy earning their living to put in the necessary study time. They become easy marks for a smooth talking dealer.
I just wanted to add an update. NGC took a proactive position and contacted me directly yesterday afternoon regarding this coin and are currently collaborating with the consignor. I've returned the coin to the consignor and right now it's between them and NGC. I feel confident that NGC will take care of things. They've been very helpful in the past and I've never had a problem with them going the extra step to make sure issues were resolved in a quick fashion. I want to commend NGC, and especially Scott Schechter for actively going out of their way to respond to squabbles on internet messages boards about coins they've graded. If I find out anything else, I'll be sure to relay it.
<< <i> No. That is someone desperately trying to cover their ass to maintain credibility for a potential $50K mistake to their clientèle. If this thread never existed, some sucker might have been burned.
Their guarantee only holds so long as Anaconda remains in business. A purchaser of that coin might hold it 20 years only to find out he is out $30-50K for buying an overhyped coin. I appreciate their pulling of the coin and their guarantee, but such careless overhyping and overpricing undermines their credibility and the hobby as a whole.
Certainly there are several other groups perhaps more at fault here. The poor and inconsistent grading by the TPGs being the most obvious. >>
Sorry Barberian, but if Anaconda had a coin that I liked and could afford, then I wouldn’t hesitate to buy from them.
You insinuate that Anaconda has no class, they have more then you. I saw nothing wrong with the ad that they had for the coin in the first place, what do you use for support for referring to it as an “over hyped” coin? How did Anaconda over hype the coin? As they used to say in the Wendy’s commercial, “Where’s the beef?” to support your claim. The only thing that might have been “over hyped” was the grade given by NGC but that is not Anaconda’s fault.
Further more, I read Anaconda’s latest reply, where is the desperation that you refer to about covering his ass? The only thing I see is you trying to take a “bite” out of his? Is there some jealousy here, sour grapes? You also use the word “credibility”, I fail to see how Anaconda lost any credibility here, the ad had no hype that you alluded too; the cosigner probably set the price that he wanted; if someone didn’t like the price then they probably would not make an offer on it – what is the big deal? For you to question their credibility only shines light on yours or lack there of.
>>monsterman - do you agree that the 1795 NGC MS61 dollar is an uncirculated, mint state coin?>>
to be frank i can not tell from the scans....the coin was made with a screw press so obviously not struck up thus flat...luster is caused by metal moving however in 1795 without hercules running the screw press metal didnt move at the hair detail area thus missing luster.....that being said that does not make it au....one other thing...metalurgy back then was not as advanced....a good numismatist should know that the anealing process has a lot to do with the final outcome
just another nuance
if you will look at as many morgans from new orleans....you would also notice many are not struck up....95% of the numismatists think that it was because they decreased the striking pressure to make their dies last longer....and they would be wrong
the correct answer is....their anealing ovens were too small thus the planchets were not heated high enough in order to keep up with production quotas.....they then turned up their pressure and then began brealking dies way too fast....thus they turned the pressue back down to get the needed number of strikes with the end result of a very abnormal number of weak strikes
the conclusion is id have to see it ....and many people here are jumping to conclusions without enough experience....not trying to bust anyone here but that is the way it is
so now you know the rest of the story.....paul harvey....good day
:-)
monsterman
ps...btw...i have a to die for isabella....in ngc pr66......we all should know that proofs are graded differently than minst state where as the tpg are much tuffer on them and expect a lot more from the coin..duh.....since pcgs does not recognize isabella proofs...aka to them they dont exist ( which btw is a bunch of bs but due to them getting their rears handed to them years ago on an error and wont go there again)
since this coin is so monster why wont pcgs put it into a ms68 holder???...or at least a 67
they will someday.....50 or 100 grading fees from now!!!
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
could it be that pcgs missed the grade at au50.....read my post about exatly how this coin was made....maybe ngc has also missed it as its a ms 62......i have graded a few in california myself you know
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
having been in this market since 1973...i have made several discovery coins
one of which was the 21-s morgan proof that i bought in anihiem 1995....the coins was in a pcgs 64pl holder.....i louped it hard...i noticed concave and convex die polishing lines on it thus concluded the die and the planchet were both polished before making this coin....i paid 7500 for this coin....i walked to annacs ( who btw have great graders and are very knowledgable )
anyway i said look at this coin i just bought....they said holy sheet...its looks like ....er...it is a proof
they slabed it as bmpr 64
i then shipped it to pcgs....who said mmmmmm and they called annacs and told them they had to see the rims so if they broke it out would annacs reslab it....they said sure...i got the coin back in the mail a month later in a pcgs bmpr 64 holder.....
now here is the best part.....and sold it for 90,000
ye haw
not braggin..well a little...but the sword cuts both ways
oh...one more thing.....i have done like kind for about 5 others....that some tpg duffus missed....and i wont even mention which one....but you can guess cant you...actually you know already....and again...ye haw
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
here is a very interesting coin....if your a student of commems like me....evryone knows who john sinnock is..cheif minter...and yes...he was known to make a few for himself....as he wanted to have special coins that he made in his career...so he polished up the die and also the planchet and made a few
and here is another one of my coins......if you have a loupe youd take note of the concave and convex die polishing...which cant happen without intent.....well we all know his intent
thus a proof coin.....since it was not authorized it is not considered a class 1 proof.....however if it looks like....smells like...it is special as the intent was there....thus the tpg call it sp 65 specimen.....and what a specime it is too
btw....the other one was in an auction a while back for 95,000
and a sharp guy could of bought it before when it was in a ms 65 slab
mmmmmmm and who was that tpg....you guesed it!!!
monsterman
ps....rick montgomery ex lord/god of pcgs sure does know his coins...fact is...there is nobody better
and thankyou rick for seeing what i see!!!!as it sure is special
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
i'm not taking sides in this, but Monsterman's striking points (as related to when this coin was made), as well as the metallurgy points sound valid to me. It would seem that one grading company is right; if Monsterman's points turn out to be true in regards to this coin and it's method of manufacture relative to it's grade, there will be a lot of crow eaten based on this thread.
<< <i>i'm not taking sides in this, but Monsterman's striking points (as related to when this coin was made), as well as the metallurgy points sound valid to me. It would seem that one grading company is right; if Monsterman's points turn out to be true in regards to this coin and it's method of manufacture relative to it's grade, there will be a lot of crow eaten based on this thread. >>
"In fact, the opposite is true. Many of the high rollers are actually the least knowledgeable because they're too busy earning their living to put in the necessary study time. They become easy marks for a smooth talking dealer."
That hasn't been my experience. Anyway...
Well, this thread has been interesting and informative. For a moment I thought we were going to get treated to a good fight followed by hugs at the end. I always like a good fight. The hugs not so much. Maybe if some of you guys could put on a pot of coffe, you might get some good juices flowing and be ready to go at it again and do it right.
"Have you checked out Anaconda's feedback?"
I won't comment on that but I did want to repeat it.
I wrote: People who spend 90k for coins generally have a pretty good idea about grading.
Russ wrote: In fact, the opposite is true. Many of the high rollers are actually the least knowledgeable because they're too busy earning their living to put in the necessary study time. They become easy marks for a smooth talking dealer.
While I agree that it's SOMETIMES true that there are some "high rollers" out there busier reorganizing their stock portfolios than learning about coin grading, I still think it's true that people who spend 90k for coins GERNERALLY have a pretty good idea about grading.....especially when they spend 90k for ONE classic coin as opposed to 90k for 69-70 bullion.
<< <i>I just wanted to add an update. NGC took a proactive position and contacted me directly yesterday afternoon regarding this coin and are currently collaborating with the consignor. I've returned the coin to the consignor and right now it's between them and NGC. I feel confident that NGC will take care of things. They've been very helpful in the past and I've never had a problem with them going the extra step to make sure issues were resolved in a quick fashion. I want to commend NGC, and especially Scott Schechter for actively going out of their way to respond to squabbles on internet messages boards about coins they've graded. If I find out anything else, I'll be sure to relay it. >>
the key here is.....how is luster made...now that you know its made from metal moving through extreme force and moving the metal through out the die
the next thought would be....what kind of press....now that you know the press type you can conclude they didnt have enough force to move all the metal throughout the whole die...why is that....partly the press type and partly the nex thought
the next thought would be.....anealing....exactly what is anealing....its heating up the planchets so the metal flows BETTER into the die.....
the next thought would be.... obviuosly since the coin is not struck up
I CAN CONCLUDE THE PRESS WAS PARTIALLY TO BLAME AND ALSO THE LESS THAN NEEDED ANEALING PROCESS
this then resulted in metal at the high points not moving at all which is obvious by looking at it
if the metal didnt move at all ( which is obviuos ) then there will be no luster where it didnt move....and that part of the coin would then look like it did when it was a planchet...which it does now
THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT AU
i can certainly see how many a novice ( as well as many intermediate numismatists ) might mistakenly think that the coin has rub.......thus au
i can also see how it got into a pcgs holder at the au50 grade....i could also see that pcgs could also of graded it ms 61 also
in the end...it is a moose coin and just like my 21-s bmpr 64 it is special....only the new price for it went up 300% ...mine went up 1200% and that qudruple the triple.....ouch....anita maxwell ( the previous owner of the 21-s prior to me buying it )
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
Without carefully evaluating the coin in person, I cannot really comment on the value. However, I would point out that the PCGS price guide is simply a "guide," and a given coin might be worth substantially more or less.
One of my favorite coins from my early dollar set was this AU58 flowing hair dollar. Those who have seen the coin in person can tell you the internet image did the coin no justice. That coin is a truly marvelous PQ specimen. While the images might suggest the coin has noticeable wear, I do not believe it actually ever circulated. Due to the nature of the dies at the time of striking (after having been damaged by a heavy die clash), there was no way for the coin to be fully struck on the high points. Consequently, there are luster breaks in those areas, and that gives the impression of wear, which brings about the PCGS grade of AU58. When that coin sold at auction two years ago, it realized $64,400. If it was available today for the PCGS guide price of $45,000, I would snap it up in a second, but I would probably face stiff competition before even getting the chance.
I just don't think we can fully evaluate the subject coin on its grade or value just on the basis of comparing two internet images and reviewing a published price guide.
I don't think the issue is really about the coin itself or the grade. It's not that unusual to see a coin like this in an NGC-62 holder.
It's about the price going from $33K to $91K in a little over a year and that a peice of plastic can cause such an increase.
Oh, and the other stuff about the possible light bath and the dealer involved.
Tough to tell for sure from the image, but I like the look of the NGC MS61 example better. It would be pretty
<< <i>Tough to tell for sure from the image, but I like the look of the NGC MS61 example better. >>
Your comparing a crap Stack's image to a Brandon image. If Cardinal says it's a marvelous PQ specimen, you can bank on it.
Russ, NCNE
JJ
<< <i>Barberian, does somebody need a hug?
My guess is that dealers that deal in large quanities of expensive coins sometimes make mistakes, too. Anaconda apologized. Honestly, I don't even think he needs to do so to maintain credibility. Credibility is based on years of buying and selling primo stuff with a positive rep! >>
Ummm...credibility is built slowly or lost quickly with every positive or negative transaction. Anaconda pulled the auction and apologized because he HAS to. And I don't appreciate the casual way in which he dismissed this as if it was a minor mistake either. How would you feel if you had purchased the coin only to find out it was grossly overpriced? I think you would need a bit more than a hug.
Thank you Russ for the quick research and thank you Cardinal for sharing your knowledge!
Who is John Galt?
Have you checked out Anaconda's feedback? I'd say it's pretty good (understatement). If I HAD purchased the coin, I would have had the opportunity to look at it in-hand and decide if I wanted to keep it....just like anybody else. I could return it! But if I purchase it for 90k and keep it, then that would also be my choice.
People who spend 90k for coins generally have a pretty good idea about grading.
<< <i>I agree. If im going to spend that kind of money on that kind of coin Im going to do major research on the coin and probably easily find out its history. You would be a fool not to. I also would not buy a coin like that from a digital photo. I think the buyer of a coin like that has some responsibility here. >>
Here we go, blame the collector. It's all his fault.
What it comes down to me for me is this:
There are two kinds of coin dealers: those that are professional numismatists and those that are just coin sellers. I generally prefer to engage the former, and when I do, there is a certain level of expertise, hand-holding, advice, service, and back-up that I expect. I also expect to pay more for the bells and whistles. When I engage the latter, I expect little or no service, no hand-holding, expertise, service, or buyback possibility. I just want the coin that I want at my price. The problem occurs when you do not know who you are dealing with, as the coin seller may masquerade as the professional numismatist. I am not saying this to diss Anaconda, but my expectation in buying a $90,000 coin would be that I would be dealing with a professional numismatist who provides meets my expectations as listed above, not some coin seller who is just trying to jam me with someone else's coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>Tough to tell for sure from the image, but I like the look of the NGC MS61 example better. >>
Your comparing a crap Stack's image to a Brandon image. If Cardinal says it's a marvelous PQ specimen, you can bank on it. Russ, NCNE >>
Yes, Cardinal's post pretty much put the issues to bed for me. I'm sorry so much manure is still flying in various directions. --Jerry
I learned a bunch on this thread about early dollars.
<< <i>As the "Official" grader of the ANA and PNG, NGC should hold themselves to a higher standard that is not deceptive to collectors.
I agree 100%. >>
Nah, they pay enough so they don't have to
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
>>>> The cycle goes round and round, everybody in the business wins - oops - except the collectors and the coin's originality.
in 1986 when the tpg started the intent was to lessen the arguements as to the grade of a coin....note the key word lessen....(sounds better than stop anc loser to reality as we see now ) ...this was needed when you had market swings where as pre 1986 a coin ...for example...in an up market there was a lot less argurments about a coins grade...in a down market there was a lot more arguements.....
there biz plan was to make a 100 million ....however in 1990 something changed and i saw it right away....and i have thought this now for 17 years.....and i have found im right
what the market wanted next was a difference in value between coins in the same grade...as there most certainly was a difference and still is today...back then sometime 20%...some time 100%....and even 1000%....as the demand for great looking coins increased and left the not so good looking ones behind....for example a monster toned morgan in 66 vrs a white 66 ...same date...same grade.....the fact was smart people would pay double or more which eventually morphed into to sometimes 1000%
enter gradeflation....in order to show the price difference the tpg took a % away from surface preservation ( lets say 5% or 10%.. what ever ) and put it into the eye appeal %....why did they do that...BECAUSE THATS WHAT THE MARKET WANTED....its my 66 would have 10 times the people wanting it than yours type of thing....therefore its worth twice what yours is...or 10 times...again what ever...but you get my point
this phenom then gave them a bright idea which was to take a 100 million biz plan and turn it into a 500 million biz plan
then enter the registry.....i can assure you that there are registry sets worth 100,000 and registry sets worth 500,000 both with each of the coins being the exact same grade....how so??? the look...pq...flashy...premium....upgradeable...what ever...but THAT IS A FACT......i have had it happen to me where as some newbee bought a ton of swill( for the grade ) and gets a coin or 2 with a higher grade and then goes around saying his set is better than mine.....( personally to me....the quality of a set is determoned by the number of people who would pay for it and what they would pay...not the numerical grade....its called putting your money where your mouth is...thats the way it is to me..maybe not you but i think the majority)
so now the next morph..and final one to date...which btw makes the tpg even more money....
ranking coins....yep...ranking coins....that what they are doing....slowly pushing up the better coins into a higher grade and leaving the lesser coins behind
so what does this mean...its means if you were larry shepherd and you had the best there was in 1990....its still the best today ( albeit a coin does come out of the woodwork once in a while )....however when larry owned it it was a 66 and the highest graded....today its a 68 and the highest graded....
everyone has always heard one of the keys to being successful in this hobby is have a great eye...duh.....great contacts....duh
however there is another which i am very good at and that is having time in the market......yep ..ive been here a long time....while id like to think i have all the above....but the real key for me is...i know what the great coins looks like.....dont laugh and say duh.....when i saw the last word oregon....i knew it and bought it....when i saw the last word washington carver i knew it....and btw its the only "d" mint graded by any service ever....when i saw a monster 93cc in a 64 holder and said to myself this is a moose...i bougth it ( and yes it upgraded 1st time in for a nice 35,000 profit )....when ....ah heck i could go on and on...but you get the point
the secret here is to undertstand where the coin your looking at fits into the population of it...and the hard part is figuring out what to pay because these coins dont trade at sheet levels
one more ditty about this
i had a friend of mine colecting bust dollars....he wanted this coin a dealer friend of mine had...pop 3 none higher....anyway the dealers was as sharp as they come...he paid 160,000 for this coin and tried it 50 times over 2 years...if it worked it would be worth 350,000...anyway he gave up...my friend balked at his 190,000 asking price...i said your nuts...so he makes 30,000 ...the dealer spent 5,000 on fees and 20,000 in holding costs....its the best there is hands down.....well i talked him into it....and guess what...2 years later when he sent in his whole set....bingo upgrade....and he now has 190,000 in a coin worht 350,000
all because he knew where the coin fit in relation to the population
as once more....the market wants their coins ranked
ok now let the sheet hit the fan from the nasayers..
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Why do you say that? All it means is they spend a lot of money on coins.
<< <i>People who spend 90k for coins generally have a pretty good idea about grading.
Why do you say that? All it means is they spend a lot of money on coins. >>
In fact, the opposite is true. Many of the high rollers are actually the least knowledgeable because they're too busy earning their living to put in the necessary study time. They become easy marks for a smooth talking dealer.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>They become easy marks for a smooth talking dealer. >>
What if the dealer doesn't talk smooth and misspells things?
<< <i>What if the dealer doesn't talk smooth and misspells things? >>
Did you mean talk smoothly?
<< <i><< That's class, plain and simple...
<< <i> No. That is someone desperately trying to cover their ass to maintain credibility for a potential $50K mistake to their clientèle. If this thread never existed, some sucker might have been burned.
Their guarantee only holds so long as Anaconda remains in business. A purchaser of that coin might hold it 20 years only to find out he is out $30-50K for buying an overhyped coin. I appreciate their pulling of the coin and their guarantee, but such careless overhyping and overpricing undermines their credibility and the hobby as a whole.
Certainly there are several other groups perhaps more at fault here. The poor and inconsistent grading by the TPGs being the most obvious. >>
Sorry Barberian, but if Anaconda had a coin that I liked and could afford, then I wouldn’t hesitate to buy from them.
You insinuate that Anaconda has no class, they have more then you. I saw nothing wrong with the ad that they had for the coin in the first place, what do you use for support for referring to it as an “over hyped” coin? How did Anaconda over hype the coin? As they used to say in the Wendy’s commercial, “Where’s the beef?” to support your claim. The only thing that might have been “over hyped” was the grade given by NGC but that is not Anaconda’s fault.
Further more, I read Anaconda’s latest reply, where is the desperation that you refer to about covering his ass? The only thing I see is you trying to take a “bite” out of his? Is there some jealousy here, sour grapes? You also use the word “credibility”, I fail to see how Anaconda lost any credibility here, the ad had no hype that you alluded too; the cosigner probably set the price that he wanted; if someone didn’t like the price then they probably would not make an offer on it – what is the big deal? For you to question their credibility only shines light on yours or lack there of.
JMHO,
Tim
>>monsterman - do you agree that the 1795 NGC MS61 dollar is an uncirculated, mint state coin?>>
to be frank i can not tell from the scans....the coin was made with a screw press so obviously not struck up thus flat...luster is caused by metal moving however in 1795 without hercules running the screw press metal didnt move at the hair detail area thus missing luster.....that being said that does not make it au....one other thing...metalurgy back then was not as advanced....a good numismatist should know that the anealing process has a lot to do with the final outcome
just another nuance
if you will look at as many morgans from new orleans....you would also notice many are not struck up....95% of the numismatists think that it was because they decreased the striking pressure to make their dies last longer....and they would be wrong
the correct answer is....their anealing ovens were too small thus the planchets were not heated high enough in order to keep up with production quotas.....they then turned up their pressure and then began brealking dies way too fast....thus they turned the pressue back down to get the needed number of strikes with the end result of a very abnormal number of weak strikes
the conclusion is id have to see it ....and many people here are jumping to conclusions without enough experience....not trying to bust anyone here but that is the way it is
so now you know the rest of the story.....paul harvey....good day
:-)
monsterman
ps...btw...i have a to die for isabella....in ngc pr66......we all should know that proofs are graded differently than minst state where as the tpg are much tuffer on them and expect a lot more from the coin..duh.....since pcgs does not recognize isabella proofs...aka to them they dont exist ( which btw is a bunch of bs but due to them getting their rears handed to them years ago on an error and wont go there again)
since this coin is so monster why wont pcgs put it into a ms68 holder???...or at least a 67
they will someday.....50 or 100 grading fees from now!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
could it be that pcgs missed the grade at au50.....read my post about exatly how this coin was made....maybe ngc has also missed it as its a ms 62......i have graded a few in california myself you know
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Thank you for taking the time to provide the update.
You'll never please everyone, but in my book "y'all are AOK".
having been in this market since 1973...i have made several discovery coins
one of which was the 21-s morgan proof that i bought in anihiem 1995....the coins was in a pcgs 64pl holder.....i louped it hard...i noticed concave and convex die polishing lines on it thus concluded the die and the planchet were both polished before making this coin....i paid 7500 for this coin....i walked to annacs ( who btw have great graders and are very knowledgable )
anyway i said look at this coin i just bought....they said holy sheet...its looks like ....er...it is a proof
they slabed it as bmpr 64
i then shipped it to pcgs....who said mmmmmm and they called annacs and told them they had to see the rims so if they broke it out would annacs reslab it....they said sure...i got the coin back in the mail a month later in a pcgs bmpr 64 holder.....
now here is the best part.....and sold it for 90,000
ye haw
not braggin..well a little...but the sword cuts both ways
oh...one more thing.....i have done like kind for about 5 others....that some tpg duffus missed....and i wont even mention which one....but you can guess cant you...actually you know already....and again...ye haw
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
here is a very interesting coin....if your a student of commems like me....evryone knows who john sinnock is..cheif minter...and yes...he was known to make a few for himself....as he wanted to have special coins that he made in his career...so he polished up the die and also the planchet and made a few
and here is another one of my coins......if you have a loupe youd take note of the concave and convex die polishing...which cant happen without intent.....well we all know his intent
thus a proof coin.....since it was not authorized it is not considered a class 1 proof.....however if it looks like....smells like...it is special as the intent was there....thus the tpg call it sp 65 specimen.....and what a specime it is too
btw....the other one was in an auction a while back for 95,000
and a sharp guy could of bought it before when it was in a ms 65 slab
mmmmmmm and who was that tpg....you guesed it!!!
monsterman
ps....rick montgomery ex lord/god of pcgs sure does know his coins...fact is...there is nobody better
and thankyou rick for seeing what i see!!!!as it sure is special
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>....maybe ngc has also missed it as its a ms 62......
monsterman >>
buy it back and resubmit....
<< <i>i'm not taking sides in this, but Monsterman's striking points (as related to when this coin was made), as well as the metallurgy points sound valid to me. It would seem that one grading company is right; if Monsterman's points turn out to be true in regards to this coin and it's method of manufacture relative to it's grade, there will be a lot of crow eaten based on this thread. >>
That hasn't been my experience. Anyway...
Well, this thread has been interesting and informative. For a moment I thought we were going to get treated to a good fight followed by hugs at the end. I always like a good fight. The hugs not so much. Maybe if some of you guys could put on a pot of coffe, you might get some good juices flowing and be ready to go at it again and do it right.
"Have you checked out Anaconda's feedback?"
I won't comment on that but I did want to repeat it.
Thank you all
People who spend 90k for coins generally have a pretty good idea about grading.
Russ wrote:
In fact, the opposite is true. Many of the high rollers are actually the least knowledgeable because they're too busy earning their living to put in the necessary study time. They become easy marks for a smooth talking dealer.
While I agree that it's SOMETIMES true that there are some "high rollers" out there busier reorganizing their stock portfolios than learning about coin grading, I still think it's true that people who spend 90k for coins GERNERALLY have a pretty good idea about grading.....especially when they spend 90k for ONE classic coin as opposed to 90k for 69-70 bullion.
<< <i>I just wanted to add an update. NGC took a proactive position and contacted me directly yesterday afternoon regarding this coin and are currently collaborating with the consignor. I've returned the coin to the consignor and right now it's between them and NGC. I feel confident that NGC will take care of things. They've been very helpful in the past and I've never had a problem with them going the extra step to make sure issues were resolved in a quick fashion. I want to commend NGC, and especially Scott Schechter for actively going out of their way to respond to squabbles on internet messages boards about coins they've graded. If I find out anything else, I'll be sure to relay it. >>
Good to know that NGC reads these PCGS boards
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
the key here is.....how is luster made...now that you know its made from metal moving through extreme force and moving the metal through out the die
the next thought would be....what kind of press....now that you know the press type you can conclude they didnt have enough force to move all the metal throughout the whole die...why is that....partly the press type and partly the nex thought
the next thought would be.....anealing....exactly what is anealing....its heating up the planchets so the metal flows BETTER into the die.....
the next thought would be.... obviuosly since the coin is not struck up
I CAN CONCLUDE THE PRESS WAS PARTIALLY TO BLAME AND ALSO THE LESS THAN NEEDED ANEALING PROCESS
this then resulted in metal at the high points not moving at all which is obvious by looking at it
if the metal didnt move at all ( which is obviuos ) then there will be no luster where it didnt move....and that part of the coin would then look like it did when it was a planchet...which it does now
THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT AU
i can certainly see how many a novice ( as well as many intermediate numismatists ) might mistakenly think that the coin has rub.......thus au
i can also see how it got into a pcgs holder at the au50 grade....i could also see that pcgs could also of graded it ms 61 also
in the end...it is a moose coin and just like my 21-s bmpr 64 it is special....only the new price for it went up 300% ...mine went up 1200% and that qudruple the triple.....ouch....anita maxwell ( the previous owner of the 21-s prior to me buying it )
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Carol
Proud Participant in Operation "Stone Holey" August 7, 2008