Ebay reporting bad coin sellers to ANA!

derryb · July 19, 2007 12:12PM

BAJJERFAN · July 19, 2007 12:16PM

WHOOPEE DING!! The ANA CONSORTIUM will get right on em.

BlindedByEgo · July 19, 2007 12:17PM

Gosh, gee willikers! While it's a nice sentiment, do you think that any one individual really cares about being "reported" to the ANA? That is right up there with getting a "ticket" from a shopping mall guard

291fifth · July 19, 2007 12:19PM

I'll bet the scam artists are shaking in their boots.

DJCoinz · July 19, 2007 12:24PM

<< Gosh, gee willikers! While it's a nice sentiment, do you think that any one individual really cares about being "reported" to the ANA? That is right up there with getting a "ticket" from a shopping mall guard

>>

fcloud · July 19, 2007 12:35PM

the key word was "might" we might report.

grip · July 19, 2007 12:35PM

<< 

<< Gosh, gee willikers! While it's a nice sentiment, do you think that any one individual really cares about being "reported" to the ANA? That is right up there with getting a "ticket" from a shopping mall guard

>>

>>

LMAO

Shortgapbob · July 19, 2007 12:37PM

Knowing the ANA process in place to deal with these sorts of things, I will refrain from comment.

ScarsdaleCoin · July 19, 2007 12:43PM

really has no bite at all

LindeDad · July 19, 2007 12:46PM

Considering that the ANA has no way to enforce anything on non members. What does this mean?

StrikeOutXXX · July 19, 2007 12:47PM

<< really has no bite at all >>

Probably right, but to try to find some positive in this - what if they're an ANA member? For those who aren't, maybe repeat offenders get put on a blacklist for ANA sponsored events and can't purchase tables, or gain entry... OK, that's the best I can do for positive - at least it's something.

derryb · July 19, 2007 1:12PM

Maybe we'll see and "ANA Approved" blocked bidder's list or a list of seller's to stay away from. Might not be a bad service for its members. I'm not an ANA member but as an Ebay member I should probable have access to such lists.

ModernCrapNut · July 19, 2007 1:22PM

Not only can they be reported to the ANA, but they can also lose their power seller status......that will deter the scammers.

Whatafind · July 19, 2007 1:36PM

Ok!!What ever!!!!!

foundinrolls · July 19, 2007 3:25PM

Actually, I want to make a few points.

The ANA has the ability to remove , by working with eBay, any seller that breaks the rules. The way the pages are written that pertain to the rules and the ANA connection, it is a technicality (and I will have to look for it again if asked, which may take a few days) but the ANA can remove any seller or buyer by reporting violations to Ebay. The ANA chooses not to.

I have been working behind the scenes with the ANA via the current Board, Mr.Cipoletti, and Sue Mc Millan (Customer Awareness Person) to document many of the huge frauds on eBay. Frauds that include shill bidding, overgrading, deceptive ads, sales of counterfeits etc. Nothing happens.

There are several people not connected with the ANA who are "chomping at the bit" to involve law enforcement with respect to the fraud on eBay. There is one person who is expected to work through major media outlets to bring the fraud out to the public.

Until the elections are done, I am not pushing the issue with the ANA.

With the help of Sue McMillan, who is doing an excellent job And a few people on the board who are in my corner there is apparently little to be done until I see what the outcome of the elections will be.

The same day that the ANA website sets it up that the new Board gets the emails sent through the site, I am picking up the torch again and I will use all my NY charm to bust chops as much as possible until something visible really happens.

In the meantime, I started something (much more to do) on my askaboutcoins page to try to help. The link is at the bottom of this page. If you would like, check out the "article" on Coins: Suspected Counterfeits, Forgeries and Fraud etc...

Anyway, there are some sympathetic ears at the ANA. We'll see what can be accomplished after the elections.

Thanks,
Bill

Shortgapbob · July 19, 2007 3:39PM

<< Actually, I want to make a few points.

The ANA has the ability to remove , by working with eBay, any seller that breaks the rules. The way the pages are written that pertain to the rules and the ANA connection, it is a technicality (and I will have to look for it again if asked, which may take a few days) but the ANA can remove any seller or buyer by reporting violations to Ebay. The ANA chooses not to.

I have been working behind the scenes with the ANA via the current Board, Mr.Cipoletti, and Sue Mc Millan (Customer Awareness Person) to document many of the huge frauds on eBay. Frauds that include shill bidding, overgrading, deceptive ads, sales of counterfeits etc. Nothing happens.

There are several people not connected with the ANA who are "chomping at the bit" to involve law enforcement with respect to the fraud on eBay. There is one person who is expected to work through major media outlets to bring the fraud out to the public.

Until the elections are done, I am not pushing the issue with the ANA.

With the help of Sue McMillan, who is doing an excellent job And a few people on the board who are in my corner there is apparently little to be done until I see what the outcome of the elections will be.

The same day that the ANA website sets it up that the new Board gets the emails sent through the site, I am picking up the torch again and I will use all my NY charm to bust chops as much as possible until something visible really happens.

In the meantime, I started something (much more to do) on my askaboutcoins page to try to help. The link is at the bottom of this page. If you would like, check out the "article" on Coins: Suspected Counterfeits, Forgeries and Fraud etc...

Anyway, there are some sympathetic ears at the ANA. We'll see what can be accomplished after the elections.

Thanks,
Bill >>

Great post! I have high hopes for the future after the elections.

RedTiger · July 19, 2007 4:02PM

<< Maybe we'll see and "ANA Approved" blocked bidder's list or a list of seller's to stay away from. Might not be a bad service for its members. I'm not an ANA member but as an Ebay member I should probable have access to such lists. >>

This could be evolve into something useful, if the ANA compiles a list of Ebay IDs and Ebay publicizes and links to the ANA list. Another idea is for Ebay to start adding some kind of visible icon for the bad coin sellers. Perhaps something like a Scarlet letter "A" icon? Now that might have a real impact on bids if that was visible on every coin listing by a bad seller. It also could make a seller listing themselves as a member of the ANA more useful. This could be good for the ANA, because more Ebay sellers would want to join if they saw that membership prompted higher bids.

Some auctions are removed before any transaction is completed, so these might be outside of the feedback system. These removed auctions could be in this ANA loop and discourage such listings.

Ebay auction listings are down, year to year, and perceived risk of fraud is one of the reasons cited. The recent incident with fake ANACS slabs being made and sold certainly hasn't helped matters, and that was late in the current fiscal quarter. The Chinese are faking almost everything, from luxury goods, to DVDs, to consumer electronics, to coins. The fakes are likely to get a lot better in the next few years. A lot of this fake or pirated stuff is being moved on Ebay. Confidence can be a fragile thing. Once it is lost, it will be near impossible to regain, so Ebay has a huge stake in this.

cmerlo1 · July 19, 2007 9:16PM

Great thread!

I met with an attorney yesterday with regard to just this kind of thing on the auction site we're starting. Fraud prevention is a double-edged sword...you must be able to build intregity by providing users protective measures against fraud, but by doing that, you open yourself up to all kinds of liabilities. A good user agreement is good protection, but is not total protection.

This eBay policy walks that line well. It shows concern and action on their part, and doesn't put them in a situation where they could be held liable for the action they take.

--Christian

ilikebuffaloes · July 19, 2007 9:31PM

I'd like to see some type of "blacklist" of buyers and sellers that is published and updated.

But someone would need to review the evidence and make sure that adding someone to this list is deserved. I've seen a few posts here where somone bashes a dealer and many others say that the dealer is fine. In some cases the basher was unreasonable and the dealer dealt with them as best as they could.

Maybe the list needs 2 levels: risky and scam artist.

But I appreciate those who post their bad experiences here (and I will do the same) so I can block them (my choice of course). I think it helps the community.

I used to sell on Yahoo! auctions (a few years ago) and had good results there for a while, but eBay just seemed to bring in the bidders so I stopped. But an alternative site with better pricing will get my business. And if you ban and help law enforcement with the scam artists, that would be great.

Do you think that hyping a coin in an auction listing is wrong if the statements that are made are true?

TwoSides2aCoin · July 19, 2007 10:17PM

Check out all them agreements with the Terms of Service when you signed up.
eBay could have saved lots of money leaving the lawyers out of it and just saying:

Enter at your own risk.

It's been like this ever since Al Gore gave birth to the internet

This venue is not for the seller, it's for the buyer !

TwoSides2aCoin · July 19, 2007 10:58PM

I'm living proof that eBay doesn't like titles with GO FISH ~PCGS and EBAY, teaming up with a POWERSCREWER.

They didn't even bother to ask me, they just slapped me on the wrist , cancelled my auction and said it was misleading

I'm a bad seller. Somebody call the ANA !

Writersblock · July 19, 2007 11:29PM

After checking out the link I looked at the date to see just how old this ancient post was that got dragged to the top. Surprise it is a current post!

I hate to bust your bubble, but this eBay "policy" has been in force for over a year, possibly close to two years. You can see how well it cleaned up the coin section of eBay.

By the way though, the link in that first post IS where you want to go to report eBay coin scams. At the bottom of the page there is a hyperlink "Report". That link is SPECIFICALLY for reporting coin auction complaints, scams etc. It will let you report up to ten auction numbers AND gives you a dialog box where you can explain exactly what is wrong with the auctions. (Be specific!) Complaints reported through that link are more successful at getting auctions pulled than auctions reported through the generic "Report this auction" link found at the bottom of every auction page. Also you don't have to try and find the "Proper catagory" for making the report (which is hard because there often ISN'T a proper catagory)

Russ · July 20, 2007 2:11AM

<< Another idea is for Ebay to start adding some kind of visible icon for the bad coin sellers. Perhaps something like a Scarlet letter "A" icon? >>

Russ, NCNE

cmerlo1 · July 20, 2007 2:25AM

Russ, NCNE >>

foundinrolls · July 20, 2007 2:49AM

<< 

<< Maybe we'll see and "ANA Approved" blocked bidder's list or a list of seller's to stay away from. Might not be a bad service for its members. I'm not an ANA member but as an Ebay member I should probable have access to such lists. >>

This could be evolve into something useful, if the ANA compiles a list of Ebay IDs and Ebay publicizes and links to the ANA list. Another idea is for Ebay to start adding some kind of visible icon for the bad coin sellers. Perhaps something like a Scarlet letter "A" icon? Now that might have a real impact on bids if that was visible on every coin listing by a bad seller. It also could make a seller listing themselves as a member of the ANA more useful. This could be good for the ANA, because more Ebay sellers would want to join if they saw that membership prompted higher bids.

Some auctions are removed before any transaction is completed, so these might be outside of the feedback system. These removed auctions could be in this ANA loop and discourage such listings.

>>

Two things here...the first is that all of eBays methods of signifying whether or not a seller is honest, is feedback driven. One of the Biggest scammers on eBay has over 60 thousand suspected frauds sold...but they are sold to people who don't know MS-70 from WD-40.

The guy has excellent feedback but he is a huge suspected, (I use that word to keep my rear from being sued) fraud.

The people who buy from him leave good feedback because they get a shiny coin in a Scam Grading Service holder. The buyer just doesnt know any better.

The next issue is that if a seller with 60000 sales gets a NEG feedback it means less than 0 (Zero) to his overall feedback rating.

If a guy with 500 sales buys ten coins from the Scam grading Service, and Negs the seller ten times and the seller negs the buyer ten times, there is a huge effect on that buyers feedback. Also, the Scam Grading Service has about 10 other suspected allies, suspected shills, and suspected co-conspirators who hop in and destroy the buyers rep even though the buyer has every right to complain about the products he received.

Buyers are trained therefore, not to leave negative feedbacks for fear of retaliatory ones.

I for example have one negative feedback in my dealings on eBay. I would have loved to have maintained a perfect feedback rating. I "negged" a guy that never paid me for an item and thus screwed up one of my auctions bigtime. He gave me a negative feedback in retaliation for my calling him a non-payer.

I have documented close to 300 complaints against one Scam Grading Service, I have documented his chain of shills, I've documented the use of the same photos by all his shills selling the same coin at the same time.

Ebays response was ZERO, the guy is still selling , the shills are still shilling and photos are still being shared and misused based upon eBays rules. This is after 2 1/2 years of documenting the suspected scams. The ANA has all this info as well.

By all accounts using the system ebay has set up, all these guys are great sellers. You cant get eBay to move on a guy or remove a seller that appears to be good based upon feedback no matter how crooked you suspect he is. The undisputed proof means nothing as eBay is making money on every one of the 60000+transactions.

I am not an attorney but the user agreement is probably not the only issue. Since eBay has been made aware of the scams and does nothing to intercede, they would probably be found liable as a co-conspirator to the frauds that are perpetrated.

As for a list of suspected scammer, That is what i am intending to create under the article heading Counterfeits, Forgeries and Frauds on my askaboutcoins website. If it takes off, I'll create a specific website for it.

Years ago, there was a good dealer /bad dealer list that was being maintained by an individual. It was on the net but I dont think it has been maintained for quite awhile, although i could be wrong about that. Anyway, follow the instructions found in the article and we can get something going.

Thanks,
Bill

foundinrolls · July 20, 2007 2:51AM

<< I'd like to see some type of "blacklist" of buyers and sellers that is published and updated.

But someone would need to review the evidence and make sure that adding someone to this list is deserved. I've seen a few posts here where somone bashes a dealer and many others say that the dealer is fine. In some cases the basher was unreasonable and the dealer dealt with them as best as they could.

Maybe the list needs 2 levels: risky and scam artist.

>>

This is exactly what I am attempting to do...
Bill

foundinrolls · July 20, 2007 2:58AM

Twosides2acoin said:

I'm living proof that eBay doesn't like titles with GO FISH ~PCGS and EBAY, teaming up with a POWERSCREWER.

They didn't even bother to ask me, they just slapped me on the wrist , cancelled my auction and said it was misleading

I respond.........and thats the kind of crap that eBay has to stop doing. There was nothing wrong with your listing. Some power sellers and Scam Grading Service sellers get away with all kinds of "suspected" fraud in their listings and not one item has been removed.

The whole system at ebay needs a major overhaul, but since eBay would lose mucho dinero, they have no incentive to do anything. At this point, the ANA , getting paid a fee of some sort by ebay to be connected to them has no desire to make waves either.

I cant wait for the new board to get in:-) It seems to me that if there is so much concern over leaflets and flyers left on tables at ANA sponsored coin shows with respect to electing certain persons that there would be more concern about being perceived as a part of the "suspected" fraud on eBay. I will raise that level of concern as soon as I am able!

Thanks,
Bill

Russ · July 20, 2007 3:23AM

<< Scam Grading Service >>

Rhymes with Avon.

Russ, NCNE

grip · July 20, 2007 3:29AM

eBay does not permit the sale of coins or paper money that are fraudulent or improperly described. Sellers who knowingly fail to disclose information about the authenticity of coins or paper money, alterations to coins or paper money, or other information that might have a material impact on the coin or paper money value may be reported to the American Numismatic Association (ANA

foundinrolls · July 20, 2007 3:37AM

<< 

<< Scam Grading Service >>

Rhymes with Avon.

Russ, NCNE >>

So Very Perceptive:-) Also lovingly known as Abomb!

FEVER · July 21, 2007 4:36PM

<< Another idea is for Ebay to start adding some kind of visible icon for the bad coin sellers. Perhaps something like a Scarlet letter "A" icon? >>

Wait a minute - this gives me an idea. Ebay needs to start delving out ............."STICKERS!" Placed on the forehead of every bad seller with super glue that can NEVER BE REMOVED! Then we will all be safe!

Edgar

P.S. I'm sorry but no money making company purposely shoots themselves in the foot.

Ebay reporting bad coin sellers to ANA!

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