How do you use MS70 (coin cleaner)?

DJCoinz · July 16, 2007 12:59PM

Is it a dip and how is it diluted (if at all)? Thanks.

tightbudget · July 16, 2007 1:01PM

Read the directions.

MadMarty · July 16, 2007 1:01PM

MS70 is soap, I dilute it with water and just swish proofs in it to remove haze, rinse in distilled water and rinse in acetone, pat dry.

DJCoinz · July 16, 2007 1:11PM

Is it like ezest? i.e. will it damage the coin if it's on it too long?

PrivateCoinCollector · July 16, 2007 1:14PM

No it will not hurt the coin, and it is not a dip. Works best with a Q-Tip in a daubing motion. No rubbing, and do not waste your time unless it is an Unc. Coin. Otherwise you have a coin with wear that looks to clean to be worn, etc., But it is very safe.

tr8cer · July 16, 2007 1:16PM

Most guys here will say to dilute the EZest and only dip for 1 sec. type in ezest to search to find out more

pharmer · July 16, 2007 1:22PM

Soap? Here is the warning for MS70, apparently issued by the manufacturer, that I copied from the Brent-Krueger web page:

First Aid Data
Skin - Contact can cause irritation, flush exposed area with tap water for 15 minutes. If irritation persists, consult a physician. Eyes - Can cause irritation or damage to eye tissue. In the event of eye contact, flush exposed area with water for at least 15 minutes and contact a physician immediately. Ingestion - Can cause severe tissue damage to mouth, esophagus and stomach. Do not induce vomiting. Drink large amounts of milk. Consult physician immediately.

I'll believe it's soap when someone names the specific active ingredients. Otherwise, that first aid warning indicates it's something stronger than soap.

DJCoinz · July 16, 2007 1:22PM

thanks everyone

TomB · July 16, 2007 1:27PM

MS70 has at least one caustic solution ingredient and the warnings reflect the ingredient(s).

pharmer · July 16, 2007 1:28PM

Which is?

TomB · July 16, 2007 1:37PM

Most likely sodium hydroxide.

DJCoinz · July 16, 2007 1:39PM

Is it dangerous to you or to the coin? (or both?)

Fletcher · July 16, 2007 1:41PM

"Sodium hydroxide is also the most common base used in chemical laboratories, and it is also widely used as a drain cleaner."

If it is sodium hydroxide, then using MS-70 is considered dipping by PCGS standards:

"Dipped - A term applied to a coin that has been placed in a commercial "dip" solution, a mild acid wash that removes the toning from most coins. Some dip solutions employ other chemicals, such as bases, to accomplish a similar result. The first few layers of metal are removed with every dip, so coins repeatedly dipped will lose luster, hence the term "overdipped"."

Whatafind · July 16, 2007 1:42PM

Qtip and dabing it on, i was told not to use my hands use plastic gloves, rinse with distilled water !
do not let soak . pour it over coin water that is.
take care.

pharmer · July 16, 2007 1:44PM

Thanks. Now I get the labeling "contains no acid!".

So DJCoins, what are you going to use it on?

TomB · July 16, 2007 1:50PM

Please note that I am assuming at this point that sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is included in MS70; I don't have a bottle in front of me to check the label to see any listed ingredients. My experience with NaOH has been from lab work. No doubt if it is present in MS70 that it is fairly dilute, but more concentrated solutions of NaOH can cause burns on the skin and would burn the esophagus if ingested and then vomited. This would be consistent with the warning found on another website and quoted earlier in the thread. I would feel fairly confident that MS70 would likely be safe if the manufacturer's instructions were followed.

An interesting tidbit about NaOH is that it generates enormous quantities of heat when pellets are dissolved in water. It can very quickly bring the temperature of a beaker past the point where one might be able to comfortably handle the beaker.

NumisOxide · July 16, 2007 1:50PM

You don't dip coins in MS70 you apply the solution to the coin via a Q-Tip then rinse with distilled water and pat dry. That's the method I use and it works very nicely.

derryb · July 16, 2007 1:51PM

<< Is it dangerous to you or to the coin? (or both?) >>

The heck with me, is it dangerous to the coin?

pharmer · July 16, 2007 2:05PM

<< 

<< Is it dangerous to you or to the coin? (or both?) >>

The heck with me, is it dangerous to the coin? >>

fletcher's post lays it on the line.

DJCoinz · July 16, 2007 2:12PM

<< 

<< Is it dangerous to you or to the coin? (or both?) >>

The heck with me, is it dangerous to the coin? >>

Thanks for the answers everyone.

DieClash · July 16, 2007 3:50PM

There's nothing on the label to indicate that it contains NA(OH). It has an orange color and an odor of alcohol.

tr8cer · July 16, 2007 4:15PM

Make sure you wear gloves. I've used it and it leaves your fingers irritated for 2 days.

Frankcoins · July 16, 2007 5:05PM

<< Soap? Here is the warning for MS70, apparently issued by the manufacturer, that I copied from the Brent-Krueger web page:

First Aid Data
Skin - Contact can cause irritation, flush exposed area with tap water for 15 minutes. If irritation persists, consult a physician. Eyes - Can cause irritation or damage to eye tissue. In the event of eye contact, flush exposed area with water for at least 15 minutes and contact a physician immediately. Ingestion - Can cause severe tissue damage to mouth, esophagus and stomach. Do not induce vomiting. Drink large amounts of milk. Consult physician immediately.

I'll believe it's soap when someone names the specific active ingredients. Otherwise, that first aid warning indicates it's something stronger than soap. >>

It's called "lye"

tr8cer · July 16, 2007 5:58PM

Every product that has any sort of chemical in it and has to list all possible adverse side effects.

I looked up ivory soap and palmolive dishwashing soap, both very mild soaps. Ivory soap contains Sodium tallowate, sodium cocoate or sodium palm kernelate, water, sodium chloride, sodium silicate, magnesium sulfate, and fragrance. If you ingest it "may cause nausea, vomitting or diarrhea. Ivory Soap MSDS

Palmolive - Contains ethanol - May cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea and central nervous system depression if ingested in large amounts.

Palmolive Dishwashing soap

jmski52 · July 16, 2007 11:25PM

"Sodium hydroxide is also the most common base used in chemical laboratories, and it is also widely used as a drain cleaner."

If it is sodium hydroxide, then using MS-70 is considered dipping by PCGS standards:

"Dipped - A term applied to a coin that has been placed in a commercial "dip" solution, a mild acid wash that removes the toning from most coins. Some dip solutions employ other chemicals, such as bases, to accomplish a similar result. The first few layers of metal are removed with every dip, so coins repeatedly dipped will lose luster, hence the term "overdipped"."

Fletcher, if this is a weak solution of sodium hydroxide and water, it still may not be very reactive toward the metals in coins. I do know that sodium hydroxide solutions can be corrosive toward organic materials, including eyes, skin, and other tissues; in addition it is corrosive toward aluminum, and iron under the right conditions.

But in a weak solution at ambient temperature for a limited exposure, it may well be much more effective in removing slight amounts of surface contamination (such as oils or pvc) rather than the metal surface itself. The only way to know for sure would be to conduct a quantitative chemical test on each and every alloy for which there is a question. Until a conclusive test were conducted, I wouldn't go so far as to call MS-70 a dip, or in any way detrimental to a coin's metallic surface.

Weak sodium hydroxide solutions are routinely used in bottle washes and various cleaners because sodium hydroxide is indeed a strong base. That means, it has a good capability to rinse completely off with clean water, due to its strong dissociation constant. Strong does not necessarily mean "corrosive". Sodium hydroxide solutions may be quite corrosive, but as I mentioned above - it depends on the rest of the conditions in the scenario. It might well be that MS-70 does not remove a measurable quantity of metal, which means that it may not qualify as a "bad actor" in the case of exposure to a coin's surface.

When Marty is calling MS-70 a soap, he is correct in a practical sense because the solution is being utilized as a soap. Indeed, sodium hydroxide is used to manufacture soaps and in solution it feels slippery like a soap. In practice, if a coin has acidic residues on the surface, a brief once-over with a dilute solution of MS-70 might serve to neutralize the acidic ions which could attack the metal surface. It is interesting to note that exposure to sodium hydroxide can "passivate" a metallic surface, preventing corrosive attack by acidic ions, even though a hot, concentrated solution of the same sodium hydroxide could very well cause corrosive pitting on the same metallic surface.

I hope this clarifies matters for you.

I defer to Tom B for his comments.

BobaFett72 · July 16, 2007 11:30PM

I use it as a marinade for pork and fish

TwoSides2aCoin · July 16, 2007 11:33PM

Duly noted

GMan · July 16, 2007 11:41PM

Anyone else use it to remove PVC? I think it does a nice job getting rid of the green gunk on AU+ coins. I don't like handling acetone myself.

jmski52 · July 16, 2007 11:44PM

The fact that Russ uses both acetone and MS-70 might well be a smart approach. The fact is that you don't always know what is on the surface of a coin, and using 2 different types of solubilization agents give you a higher probability of removing an unknown contaminant. As long as both are completely rinsable and do not react with the coin's surface, you probably come out ahead - and so does the coin.

PrivateCoinCollector · July 17, 2007 12:19AM

At the ANA summer session I went to a 2 day seminar hosted by NCS. In very broad non-disclosiing terms they told us the following. We should not try to do what they do at home because of the purity of the chemicals they use, and the safety precautions they have in place. BUT, if WE were to do something to a coin it would be something like the following.

Step 1. You must remove all organic (PVC) material from the surface before doing anything else. This is done by dipping in Acetone and never rubbing the coin. You may daub it with a Qtip gently. Alcohol is also great for removing PCV, it does not work as fast but it is much safer to use.

Step 2: Once all the PVC has been removed. The coin is examined to see if it can be helped with a non-acid wash (fill-in MS 70 here although they do not use that product). This will remove any embedded dirt and verdigres. MS 70 does not do near as good a job as their stuff.

Step 3: Look at the tarnish (all toning is tarnish). If we like the look then we call it toning and stop there. If we think it ugly we call it tarnish and keep going. If it is determined that the coin is tarnished, then a quick (very quick 1/2 second or so) in a diluted commercial Silver dip is needed. The coin should be then rinsed in plenty of clean water and then quickly dipped in a baking soda solution to assure all the acid is neutralized. But this is a one trick pony. If you dip it too long, you ruin the finish of the coin, too short and you are stuck with partial tarnish. You should never try to dip it twice.

Step 4: Send it in for grading. We spent a week looking at coins in PCGS and NGC holders that have had this kind of "work" done to them. Remember it is not so about if a coin has been cleaned but more about if it was improperly cleaned. All cleaning is not bad. That is why NCS has a very good business. I can hear some of you groaning already. But think about the fact that Museum's have been doing this type of "conservation for" years.

There are a host of other in-between things they do (remove copper spots from gold, ultrasonic baths etc.) that I am ommitting so please do not think this is everything.

You guys can shoot the messenger, but this is the reality. But remember, this is risky stuff and one should think long and hard about playing with chemicals like this at home without the appropriate infrastucture. And you would never do much to a circulated coin. It makes no sense for a worn coin to look like anything but a used coin. Maybe remove PVC, but never a dip.

19Lyds · July 17, 2007 1:32AM

Since Fletcher is so adamant about pointing out what PCGS considers doctoring of coins, can someone please explain to me how PCGS handles "spot reviews"?

Specifically, in this thread, one of the posters indicated that spots were present when they were sent in but now they are gone.

And what about this one?

Did PCGS conserve (dip it) the coin?

So, it seems to me that, when warranted, dipping is not considered doctoring.

How do you use MS70 (coin cleaner)?

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