The bottom line is that much of what goes on in today's market results in making us pay a heck of a lot more for coins. Good for dealers, good for coin doctors, good for crackout artists and perhaps good for investors/speculators...but bad for collectors who simply want to accumulate nice coins at less than absurd prices.
Ah, now I see - the same old stuff. Ziggy, I don't buy that many coins outside of the ones that you don't particularly adhere to, but when I get serious about buying a coin, you better bet your booties that I ask questions, get opinions, and then ask some more, in addition to having my own opinion. No sense in spending good money on a coin that you intend to keep if it won't make you happy 5 or 10 years from now.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Laura, Laura, Laura - that's all we ever hear about around here! Can we please just go back to discussing found in rolls, ebay ripoffs and mint product flipping? >>
<< <i>I don't know the woman, but I am sure you're right, Russ. I find this all very intriguing, and this is a major reason I deal mostly with the slimeball Mint. The industry simply cannot and will not police itself - make no mistake. >>
Say what you will about Laura, but I think she is what she is because she doesn't BS with what she thinks people wants to hear and she calls 'em as she sees 'em. That can lead to some pretty serious personality clashes, but I will certainly give the woman serious points for her candor. Now if only someone would out those doctors... >>
I used to think the doctors should be outed, but no more. We know who some are already and it doesn't matter. One even has a website advertising his services and it was like nobody wanted to call him a coin doctor.
<< <i>Sure collectors do rule, but it's the TPG's and dealers who make the Lion's share of the money off the market. Being a ruler is highly overrated.
>>
Just look at the Alaska Gold Rush, even the CA Gold Rush. Those who "made fortunes".....were the third party suppliers ie outfitters, travel, etc.
That concept is not too far off...stake your claim for the Jefferson Spouse...if you can!
<< <i>Kind of hard to blame dealers and TPGs for that. >>
When it leads to gradeflation, crackouts and marketing gimmicks after the collectors abdicated their "rule" to the TPGs, I'm not sure it's all on the collector other than when most of them decided that a slabber's opinion was law. That was about when they abdicated.
<< <i>When it leads to gradeflation, crackouts and marketing gimmicks after the collectors abdicated their "rule" to the TPGs, I'm not sure it's all on the collector... >>
Sure it is. Dealers and TPGs can't eat coins or plastic- if, through their buying choices, collectors demand *whatever*, that is what will be supplied (to the best of the abilities of the suppliers). If you don't like *it*, don't buy *it*. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do when you don't like *it*, but everybody else seems to.
<< <i>...other than when most of them decided that a slabber's opinion was law. That was about when they abdicated. >>
Sorry, but if you (in general, that is- not directed at any specific individual) abdicate your responsibility for *whatever*, you shouldn't expect anybody to take your complaints about the results of your decision seriously.
<< <i>What a fun thread. You call yourself a collector but you don't know enough about coins to grade them. So you rely on the tpgs and then feel cheated that your coins are lower grade than the coins you see on the bourse floor. Folks if the coin is pq then its pq. Stop your worry. Seems people here are missing the point that this is supposed to be a enjoyable hobby to collect not to worry that the 8k coin you just bought is now a month later worth 7700. Old time collectors studied the coins and spent years with the sets they built. Today a person walks into a show with a big wallet and expects to buy the #1 set. in a day. Tpgs are not the problem. They are a tool just like your loupe. Think a few people here need to step back and relax. And for what its worth thank heaven for Laura and the others who work behind the scences trying to help the market and help those who need it. >>
My loupe tells the truth, Tpgs have stopped , I used to be able to buy sight unseen , I no longer can and no longer will, I used to submit coins for grading and no longer will. I am not smart enough to buy raw coins, neither do I have the time or the risk profile. Basically what is wrong with the hobby is taking my discretionary dollar away from the hobby....and probably quite a few others too! Its been a fun ride but it is cute widgets for me from now on.
<< <i>Sorry, but if you (in general, that is- not directed at any specific individual) abdicate your responsibility for *whatever*, you shouldn't expect anybody to take your complaints about the results of your decision seriously. >>
I agree completely!
That was my point, more or less. Despite claims that the collectors "rule," my belief is that the rulers abdicated the throne and gave it to the TPGs, IMO. The collectors, collectively, have no one but themselves to blame for that. Okay, I take that back. At a time it seemed like they had good reason to fall back on the TPGs because of the rampant abuses in the hobby. And for quite a while, it was an unquestionable plus for the hobby.
But power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And once the the TPGs went beyond gaining market acceptance and into the realm of obtaining market domination, IMO that's when we started seeing things that are again damaging the hobby. Instead of merely providing valuable services -- which they did to the extreme benefit of numismatics -- they started making new markets, which I think is, on balance, mostly to its detriment. I still think they are a net benefit to the hobby compared to some of what went on before they made it harder for whizzers, counterfeiters and scrub-a-dub-dubbers to peddle fake or "shiny" coins to suckers who didn't know better...but as I see more of the aftereffects of a time when it's more about the plastic than the coin, the harder and harder it gets for me to continue to accept that.
We LET them take over. We gave up the control. To the extent that some of us don't like the road it's going down, it's largely our own fault for allowing our judgment to be supplanted by that of the slabbers. And now I don't think we could get the control back if we tried.
For those of you increasingly approving of the status quo, I accept your right to your opinion, so I hope you'll return the favor.
<< <i>Sorry, but if you (in general, that is- not directed at any specific individual) abdicate your responsibility for *whatever*, you shouldn't expect anybody to take your complaints about the results of your decision seriously. >>
I agree completely!
That was my point, more or less. Despite claims that the collectors "rule," my belief is that the rulers abdicated the throne and gave it to the TPGs, IMO. The collectors, collectively, have no one but themselves to blame for that. Okay, I take that back. At a time it seemed like they had good reason to fall back on the TPGs because of the rampant abuses in the hobby. And for quite a while, it was an unquestionable plus for the hobby.
But power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And once the the TPGs went beyond gaining market acceptance and into the realm of obtaining market domination, IMO that's when we started seeing things that are again damaging the hobby. Instead of merely providing valuable services -- which they did to the extreme benefit of numismatics -- they started making new markets, which I think is, on balance, mostly to its detriment. I still think they are a net benefit to the hobby compared to some of what went on before they made it harder for whizzers, counterfeiters and scrub-a-dub-dubbers to peddle fake or "shiny" coins to suckers who didn't know better...but as I see more of the aftereffects of a time when it's more about the plastic than the coin, the harder and harder it gets for me to continue to accept that.
We LET them take over. We gave up the control. To the extent that some of us don't like the road it's going down, it's largely our own fault for allowing our judgment to be supplanted by that of the slabbers. And now I don't think we could get the control back if we tried. >>
You get it back by the absolute price your willing to pay for any coin. You control your pocketbook.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Although I had been away from collecting for many years, I still enjoy an attractive coin as opposed to a coin I find unattractive that someone else says is the thing to be collecting. This is the big reason I collect moderns, and by moderns I also include Walkers and Merc dimes. Very popular series such as the Morgan and Peace dollars I see so many coins that have no appeal to me at all. They may be slabbed at MS 63-65 but I don't find bag marks and discolorations all over the fields and devices appealing at all. I realize there are some beautiful coins in these series out there, but for what one of those examples cost, I can purchase quite a few nice moderns. I also don't have to worry about a coin being doctored by someone like the above mentioned who states that he "removes metal, replaces metal and carves"..... to me that is a copy. The hobby has a lot of great people who are willing to teach and enjoy camraderie with other collectors, but there are also a lot of slime balls to whom the pursuit of the almighty dollar overrides any sense of personal integrity.
<< <i>You get it back by the absolute price your willing to pay for any coin. You control your pocketbook. >>
There's the answer in a nutshell.
<< <i>We LET them take over. We gave up the control. >>
Some people did, but I pretty much gave up on collecting US coins a number of years ago because I wasn't satisfied with the way things were heading, even though lots of other collectors seemed to be perfectly happy. I didn't give up control- I quit playing the game.
The beauty of it, though, is that there's a whole wide world of coins out there where you don't have to play the kind of game so many US collectors are becoming disillusioned with.
Title says RYK started thread, first post looks like roadrunner..... stman scratches head. I'll admit I kinda miss Legend Lady. I say this because at least every Sunday after a show, we could count on her to stir the pot. Anything to stir the pot..... then her New Purchases would follow on the BST. Just an observation is all.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
The original post referenced (and linked) to another website topic. In particular it stated that gradeflation and TPG grading was the cause of an 80cc dollar puchased in MS66 back in 1993 as being worth less today. While that is part of the reason, maybe a tiny part, it's not the whole story. Hence my additions to that. When I checked back on this tonight I was surprised to see my reply first. Thought I was seeing things. Looks to be a targeted strike on the first post only ..... sort of like a "smart" bomb.
I too have my own opinions as to what is acceptable to me, yet in many cases I cannot follow that guidance because it conflicts with the new herd's brainwashed mentality. Therefore I have to at least follow on the outskirts of the heard so as not to take a financial beating on coins that were very acceptable in decades past, but not in the new millenium.
Comments
Ah, now I see - the same old stuff. Ziggy, I don't buy that many coins outside of the ones that you don't particularly adhere to, but when I get serious about buying a coin, you better bet your booties that I ask questions, get opinions, and then ask some more, in addition to having my own opinion. No sense in spending good money on a coin that you intend to keep if it won't make you happy 5 or 10 years from now.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Laura, Laura, Laura - that's all we ever hear about around here! Can we please just go back to discussing found in rolls, ebay ripoffs and mint product flipping? >>
I miss Laura here!
myCCset
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't know the woman, but I am sure you're right, Russ. I find this all very intriguing, and this is a major reason I deal mostly with the slimeball Mint. The industry simply cannot and will not police itself - make no mistake. >>
Say what you will about Laura, but I think she is what she is because she doesn't BS with what she thinks people wants to hear and she calls 'em as she sees 'em. That can lead to some pretty serious personality clashes, but I will certainly give the woman serious points for her candor. Now if only someone would out those doctors... >>
I used to think the doctors should be outed, but no more. We know who some are already and it doesn't matter. One even has a website advertising his services and it was like nobody wanted to call him a coin doctor.
Coin Restoration Service
<< <i>Sure collectors do rule, but it's the TPG's and dealers who make the Lion's share of the money off the market. Being a ruler is highly overrated.
>>
Just look at the Alaska Gold Rush, even the CA Gold Rush. Those who "made fortunes".....were the third party suppliers ie outfitters, travel, etc.
That concept is not too far off...stake your claim for the Jefferson Spouse...if you can!
<< <i>No, but as much as we say to buy the holder and not the coin, the bottom line is that a lot of people chase numbers on the slab. >>
Kind of hard to blame dealers and TPGs for that.
<< <i>Lessons from Laura: Collectors Rule! >>
I thought it was...
Lessons from Laura: Cheeseburgers Rule!
<< <i>Kind of hard to blame dealers and TPGs for that.
When it leads to gradeflation, crackouts and marketing gimmicks after the collectors abdicated their "rule" to the TPGs, I'm not sure it's all on the collector other than when most of them decided that a slabber's opinion was law. That was about when they abdicated.
<< <i>When it leads to gradeflation, crackouts and marketing gimmicks after the collectors abdicated their "rule" to the TPGs, I'm not sure it's all on the collector... >>
Sure it is. Dealers and TPGs can't eat coins or plastic- if, through their buying choices, collectors demand *whatever*, that is what will be supplied (to the best of the abilities of the suppliers). If you don't like *it*, don't buy *it*. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do when you don't like *it*, but everybody else seems to.
<< <i>...other than when most of them decided that a slabber's opinion was law. That was about when they abdicated. >>
Sorry, but if you (in general, that is- not directed at any specific individual) abdicate your responsibility for *whatever*, you shouldn't expect anybody to take your complaints about the results of your decision seriously.
edited to clarify a point...
<< <i>What a fun thread. You call yourself a collector but you don't know enough about coins to grade them. So you rely on the tpgs and then feel cheated that your coins are lower grade than the coins you see on the bourse floor. Folks if the coin is pq then its pq. Stop your worry. Seems people here are missing the point that this is supposed to be a enjoyable hobby to collect not to worry that the 8k coin you just bought is now a month later worth 7700. Old time collectors studied the coins and spent years with the sets they built. Today a person walks into a show with a big wallet and expects to buy the #1 set. in a day. Tpgs are not the problem. They are a tool just like your loupe. Think a few people here need to step back and relax. And for what its worth thank heaven for Laura and the others who work behind the scences trying to help the market and help those who need it. >>
My loupe tells the truth, Tpgs have stopped , I used to be able to buy sight unseen , I no longer can and no longer will, I used to submit coins for grading and no longer will. I am not smart enough to buy raw coins, neither do I have the time or the risk profile.
Basically what is wrong with the hobby is taking my discretionary dollar away from the hobby....and probably quite a few others too! Its been a fun ride but it is cute widgets for me from now on.
<< <i>Sorry, but if you (in general, that is- not directed at any specific individual) abdicate your responsibility for *whatever*, you shouldn't expect anybody to take your complaints about the results of your decision seriously. >>
I agree completely!
That was my point, more or less. Despite claims that the collectors "rule," my belief is that the rulers abdicated the throne and gave it to the TPGs, IMO. The collectors, collectively, have no one but themselves to blame for that. Okay, I take that back. At a time it seemed like they had good reason to fall back on the TPGs because of the rampant abuses in the hobby. And for quite a while, it was an unquestionable plus for the hobby.
But power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And once the the TPGs went beyond gaining market acceptance and into the realm of obtaining market domination, IMO that's when we started seeing things that are again damaging the hobby. Instead of merely providing valuable services -- which they did to the extreme benefit of numismatics -- they started making new markets, which I think is, on balance, mostly to its detriment. I still think they are a net benefit to the hobby compared to some of what went on before they made it harder for whizzers, counterfeiters and scrub-a-dub-dubbers to peddle fake or "shiny" coins to suckers who didn't know better...but as I see more of the aftereffects of a time when it's more about the plastic than the coin, the harder and harder it gets for me to continue to accept that.
We LET them take over. We gave up the control. To the extent that some of us don't like the road it's going down, it's largely our own fault for allowing our judgment to be supplanted by that of the slabbers. And now I don't think we could get the control back if we tried.
For those of you increasingly approving of the status quo, I accept your right to your opinion, so I hope you'll return the favor.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sorry, but if you (in general, that is- not directed at any specific individual) abdicate your responsibility for *whatever*, you shouldn't expect anybody to take your complaints about the results of your decision seriously. >>
I agree completely!
That was my point, more or less. Despite claims that the collectors "rule," my belief is that the rulers abdicated the throne and gave it to the TPGs, IMO. The collectors, collectively, have no one but themselves to blame for that. Okay, I take that back. At a time it seemed like they had good reason to fall back on the TPGs because of the rampant abuses in the hobby. And for quite a while, it was an unquestionable plus for the hobby.
But power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And once the the TPGs went beyond gaining market acceptance and into the realm of obtaining market domination, IMO that's when we started seeing things that are again damaging the hobby. Instead of merely providing valuable services -- which they did to the extreme benefit of numismatics -- they started making new markets, which I think is, on balance, mostly to its detriment. I still think they are a net benefit to the hobby compared to some of what went on before they made it harder for whizzers, counterfeiters and scrub-a-dub-dubbers to peddle fake or "shiny" coins to suckers who didn't know better...but as I see more of the aftereffects of a time when it's more about the plastic than the coin, the harder and harder it gets for me to continue to accept that.
We LET them take over. We gave up the control. To the extent that some of us don't like the road it's going down, it's largely our own fault for allowing our judgment to be supplanted by that of the slabbers. And now I don't think we could get the control back if we tried. >>
You get it back by the absolute price your willing to pay for any coin. You control your pocketbook.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Rant done.
<< <i>You get it back by the absolute price your willing to pay for any coin. You control your pocketbook. >>
There's the answer in a nutshell.
<< <i>We LET them take over. We gave up the control. >>
Some people did, but I pretty much gave up on collecting US coins a number of years ago because I wasn't satisfied with the way things were heading, even though lots of other collectors seemed to be perfectly happy. I didn't give up control- I quit playing the game.
The beauty of it, though, is that there's a whole wide world of coins out there where you don't have to play the kind of game so many US collectors are becoming disillusioned with.
It's a Frankieeeeeeeeeeeeee
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
she called these things dogs.
Us widgets just don't suffer the same ills as the rest of the coin world
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Just an observation is all.
myCCset
<< <i>looks like mods have poofed the link to the hot topics report
Cool. Never seen that before.
Collectors rule? OK, put your post back, and reinstate a couple members while you're at it.
I knew it would happen.
In particular it stated that gradeflation and TPG grading was the cause of an 80cc dollar puchased in MS66 back in 1993 as being worth less today. While that is part of the reason, maybe a tiny part, it's not the whole story. Hence my additions to that. When I checked back on this tonight I was surprised to see my reply first.
Thought I was seeing things. Looks to be a targeted strike on the first post only ..... sort of like a "smart" bomb.
I too have my own opinions as to what is acceptable to me, yet in many cases I cannot follow that guidance because it conflicts with the new herd's brainwashed mentality. Therefore I have to at least follow on the outskirts of the heard so as not to take a financial beating on coins that were very acceptable in decades past, but not in the new millenium.
roadrunner