What is the most efficient and safest way to distribute counterfeit slabs?

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 3:42AM

Now that counterfeit slabs (not PCGS, yet) are turning up on Ebay, it occurs to me that we need to be more vigilant in all trading venues. One of the ways to protect ourselves is to anticipate where and how the fake slabs are likely to be sold. Towards that end, please put on your evil thinking caps and share your thoughts on how we might be able to get away with selling fake slabs.

DorkGirl · July 8, 2007 3:46AM

Ebay 1 day auctions and BIN's are the quickest and easiest way that I can think of.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 8, 2007 3:50AM

When in Rome do as the Romans
When in China use a reasonable facsimile.

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 3:51AM

Remember, you don't want to get caught. How do you get away with the crime?

AUandAG · July 8, 2007 3:53AM

If I was selling counterfeit slabs I'd make sure not to use the macro and have just a bit of a blur and blame
my scanner or such. Large blurry close ups of the coin and not the slab would do just fine. I'd make sure
that I emphasized that it was a TPG slab and was accurately graded! Probably do that in RED print too.
bob

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 3:54AM

My first evil genius thought is that I'd be a heavy user of the TPG's reholder service.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 8, 2007 3:55AM

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 3:58AM

My second evil genius thought is that I'd be a strong buyer of replaceable coins that are solidly graded or PQ. I'd crack them and keep the inserts for nefarious purposes. Of course I'd resubmit the raw coins.

IGWT · July 8, 2007 4:10AM

LindeDad · July 8, 2007 4:18AM

TV?

Aaron04 · July 8, 2007 4:24AM

I tend to dump most of mine on ebay and flea markets.

UtahCoin · July 8, 2007 4:39AM

Go to a big show (Long Beach, ANA, Baltimore, etc). Find a new dealer back in the back who is having a very horrible first show experience because his table location. Ask him if he is buying, then lay on the story about these were your dad's coins and are they worth anything...

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 5:45AM

Go to a big show (Long Beach, ANA, Baltimore, etc). Find a new dealer back in the back who is having a very horrible first show experience because his table location. Ask him if he is buying, then lay on the story about these were your dad's coins and are they worth anything...

Tough to do much volume that way. I want a way to distribute hundreds of millions of dollars worth of the stuff. Otherwise, the scheme would be more pathetic than brilliant.

mrearlygold · July 8, 2007 5:46AM

telemarketers, tv evangelists, er coin sales

STONE · July 8, 2007 5:50AM

This is why buying raw is the way to go!!!

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 5:56AM

This is why buying raw is the way to go!!!

Hardly. If you know how to buy coins raw, counterfeit slabs can't harm you.

Petescorner · July 8, 2007 6:00AM

I might try to sell to pawn shops. I think that most pawn brokers are knowledgable in many areas, but not necessarily experts in all of them. If a coin comes into their shop in a major TPG service slab, I would bet their thought process is "man, this is going to be an easy one to make an offer on" as they reach for the price guide. Granted, the offer is likely to be low (maybe half of what it should be) but who cares, you're only there to get rid of your counterfeit items. Take the money and run.

Pentimento · July 8, 2007 6:01AM

<< My second evil genius thought is that I'd be a strong buyer of replaceable coins that are solidly graded or PQ. I'd crack them and keep the inserts for nefarious purposes. Of course I'd resubmit the raw coins. >>

And then what do you do with the ugly coins in fake slabs with real labels. We are back to square one.

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 6:16AM

And then what do you do with the ugly coins in fake slabs with real labels.

First, they don't need to be ugly. They can be nice looking coins and only slightly overgraded.

Second, I'd market them through retailers that don't display their coins at coin shows. I wouldn't want my suppliers stumbling on too many upgraded coins in one showcase. It might arouse their suspicions.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 8, 2007 6:22AM

GrumpyEd · July 8, 2007 7:49AM

Good subject to ponder!

Seems like most fakes (that have been noticed) were easy to spot, mostly dollars in old small anacs holders with problems listed from China with low feedbacks. Maybe they give the fake coins some fake wear to hide being fake and they have a source for those small slabs. They look like they faked the labels, slabs and coins.

My guess is the next thing they will change to unload more of them is the listings, they might get some US people to list them with better worded listings. I'd be looking closer at feedbacks before buying, if they bought a bunch of 1 cent ebooks and didn't have a record of real sales with good feedback be careful! The next ones might not be listed direct from China. If they get more sneaky they might just try swapping real coins and inserts to up the grades on coins but that's a big shift from fake coins & slabs & inserts so my bet is they will try better listings.

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 8:00AM

Clearly, someone on the inside of the business would be far better off using real coins, real inserts and fake plastic. And clearly he would have more success than an outsider. He might not even get caught.

BBN · July 8, 2007 8:25AM

anyone have a photo of any PCGS or NGC counterfeit slabs?

PerryHall · July 8, 2007 8:39AM

There is no safe way to distribute counterfeit slabs. Dealers and collectors will see that the coin is fake or grossly overgraded and then notify the grading service who will then hunt down the counterfeiter by tracing the coin back to its source. It happened once before with the first PCGS slab and the perp was huinted down, prosecuted, and sentnced to a long prison term.

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 9:05AM

There is no safe way to distribute counterfeit slabs. Dealers and collectors will see that the coin is fake or grossly overgraded and then notify the grading service who will then hunt down the counterfeiter by tracing the coin back to its source. It happened once before with the first PCGS slab and the perp was huinted down, prosecuted, and sentnced to a long prison term.

In that case, the perp counterfeited the slab inserts. Because he used "just miss" coins, I wonder if he might never have been caught if he had used real inserts.

IGWT · July 8, 2007 10:28AM

-- "In that case, the perp counterfeited the slab inserts. Because he used "just miss" coins, I wonder if he might never have been caught if he had used real inserts." --

Was there something about the inserts that gave him away?

fc · July 8, 2007 10:37AM

you need to obfuscate the auction and basically delay the buyer
figuring out the slab is fake. you need to live in a country where
the USA gets little to no respect when it comes to solving a crime
for us.

ebay. 1 day auction. i agree with that.

Mark · July 8, 2007 11:42AM

IGWT:

There were a couple of small "errors" with the font on the counterfeit PCGS slabs. They were quite small...but numismatists, more so than most people, frequently look for small differences, so these small typographic errors were enough to give them away.

Bodie · July 8, 2007 1:03PM

Ask a friend to list them for one day auctions.

RedTiger · July 8, 2007 3:45PM

<< There is no safe way to distribute counterfeit slabs. Dealers and collectors will see that the coin is fake or grossly overgraded and then notify the grading service who will then hunt down the counterfeiter by tracing the coin back to its source. It happened once before with the first PCGS slab and the perp was huinted down, prosecuted, and sentnced to a long prison term.

In that case, the perp counterfeited the slab inserts. Because he used "just miss" coins, I wonder if he might never have been caught if he had used real inserts. >>

The safest way is to use real inserts. Some one with dealer connections could easily buy them by the bushel load for say $1 each for common coins, more for valuable coins, or for special favors. A knowledgeable thief could use just miss coins or slider coins and make a very good living if they have access to the plastic shells made to spec. Making the shells doesn't seem like a difficult task. The inserts and holograms are tougher, but even those could be faked. Still seems easier to buy real inserts, if a person can get access to them.

If a person has slider coins with real inserts, they could sell them just about anywhere. The chances of getting caught would be close to zero. A cynical and suspicious person might say it is already being done, and that is why so many low-end for the grade coins are on the market. The keys are to buy real inserts, and to make the plastic shells to exact specs, but again, those seem like modest hurdles to overcome, for the pay off.

Hugegut · July 8, 2007 7:11PM

Boiler room operation. Phone sales to really old people who will buy as an "investment". The slabs won't be discovered as fakes until the victim sells, which will probably be years away, if ever.

SanMiguel98 · July 8, 2007 7:36PM

over in the currency forum, it was pointed out that the scammers in china are getting smarter. they used normal-sounding usernames & usa item locations. the auctions mentioned had a lot of people taking the bait, and the final sales tally was near $6000. if all the slab counterfeiters followed suit, a lot of people would buy the fake slabs without being the least bit suspicious.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=23&threadid=595160

dorkkarl · July 8, 2007 9:22PM

i am so glad i don't collect pla$tic.

K S

basestealer · July 8, 2007 9:52PM

Get a fake ID. Put an ad in the paper stating that you are selling your certified collection. Explain that you will undercut eBay prices by 10%. Encourage potential buyers to research what the online marketplace is fetching for the coins--have nothing to hide, and hide nothing (except the nuts behind the scam). Any coin viewings should take place at a public location and you should take public transportation there. When you do unload them, whoever buys them will either flip them and take the blame for the counterfeits, or keep them and never know one way or the other. Another way to do it would be to use that same fake ID and rent a spot in an antique mall--dump them on the unwary and you don't even have to be present. Price them low enough so that they sell out within one month's rent. Pick up the commission check and never set foot in there again.

Of course the above is said in jest and I assume no responsibility for the legal consequences (or otherwise) that might befall anyone who takes my sarcastic advice. Remember to wear your sticky-back handlebar mustache for any face to face meetings.

PerryHall · July 8, 2007 9:58PM

<< i am so glad i don't collect pla$tic. >>

Yea. We know that there is never a problem with raw coins being counterfeited or overgraded.

dorkkarl · July 8, 2007 10:12PM

<< 

<< i am so glad i don't collect pla$tic. >>

Yea. We know that there is never a problem with raw coins being counterfeited or overgraded.

>>

there is'nt if you know what the he11 your doing.

but how moronic does the hobby have to be when people start worrying about counterfeit chunks of PLASTIC???

K S

Andrew289 · July 8, 2007 10:20PM

<< Now that counterfeit slabs (not PCGS, yet) are turning up on Ebay, it occurs to me that we need to be more vigilant in all trading venues. One of the ways to protect ourselves is to anticipate where and how the fake slabs are likely to be sold. Towards that end, please put on your evil thinking caps and share your thoughts on how we might be able to get away with selling fake slabs. >>

I love it. In the name of protection, let's all tell the crooks and wanna be crooks how to perfect their ways. You might as well write a "how to" book for ripping folks off online.

I also love those threads that talk about safes and where to hide your coins at home. Jim Bob, "I keep mine in the laundry room in an old cigar box and I also have some hidden in the guest bedroom closet in an old shoe box, oh, and don't forget the kitchen cabinets, on the very top shelf, its hard to reach, so I know they will be safe there." Oh ..the jockularity.

IGWT · July 8, 2007 10:27PM

-- "Oh ..the jockularity." --

Andy is an athlete?

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 11:24PM

I love it. In the name of protection, let's all tell the crooks and wanna be crooks how to perfect their ways. You might as well write a "how to" book for ripping folks off online.

The crooks don't need our advice. They'll devote many hours to perfecting a plan.

We, on the other hand, will spend only a few minutes trying to anticipate their methods. This may not be enough, but at least our odds will improve.

MrEureka · July 8, 2007 11:30PM

One thing I'd like to come out of this thread is an initiative by PCGS whereby all coins of significant value are imaged. Anyone should be able to enter a cert number and get an online image of the coin.

One side benefit of this would be a greater incentive to turn in tags on crackouts, which would then be removed from the database. After all, you wouldn't want the world to know how low your coins were graded in the past.

PerryHall · July 9, 2007 12:19AM

<< 

<< 

<< i am so glad i don't collect pla$tic. >>

Yea. We know that there is never a problem with raw coins being counterfeited or overgraded.

>>

there is'nt if you know what the he11 your doing.

but how moronic does the hobby have to be when people start worrying about counterfeit chunks of PLASTIC???

K S >>

Duh. Counterfeit slabs will only house overgraded coins or counterfeit coins. If you can grade and authenticate coins, counterfeit slabs will not be a problem for you.

Regulated · July 9, 2007 3:31AM

Anyone doing this would have to be an insider and would have to have the sense not to put too many dramatically overgraded coins out there. Working the 45/53 line or the 58/61 line (like many of the upgrade guys) would probably be enough to make you LOTS of money over time. It would also make sense for the person doing this to be perceived as someone that isn't a big grader of coins... That being said, I will bet the individual probably would use regrade and crossover invoices frequently.

The individual (or individuals) would probably never sell his own product directly. I am sure that there are plenty of big retailers of "market acceptable" material that could do this for the counterfeiter.

The question I would have is who in the business would have access to the technology to counterfeit slabs?

MrEureka · July 9, 2007 3:40AM

The question I would have is who in the business would have access to the technology to counterfeit slabs?

Plastic isn't exactly high tech. But if you have to narrow the field somehow, I'd suggest compiling a list of sociopaths with strong numismatic skills and plenty of capital.

Regulated · July 9, 2007 3:44AM

As an aside, I would probably try and fake several generations of older slab. A TPG can photo cert all of its issues going forward, but how could they possibly protect themselves against coins that were ostensibly slabbed 10 years ago (or two for that matter)?

Regulated · July 9, 2007 3:50AM

Of course the best way to do this would be to figure out a way to open slabs without damaging them, then reseal them the same way that the services do it - it would be totally undetectable.

MrEureka · July 9, 2007 4:08AM

One more thing a TPG could do to prevent such activities is to send one of its finalizers to auction lot viewings. If the finalizer recognizes coins in his company's holders that are not graded as he remembers grading them, an investigation can begin.

Obvious as this is, I don't know if it has ever been done.

Regulated · July 9, 2007 4:12AM

If the coins are in "old" style holders, I doubt that the finalizer would realize that they weren't right.

mercurydimeguy · July 9, 2007 4:19AM

I would take an alternate low volume approach versus high volume approach and pick coins where there is a HUGE price move from MS64 to MS65...buy 64's and put them in 65 holders. There are a 1/2 dozen in the Merc series alone and if you were to look across all the series there are probably 1,000 such coins. Some of the price differences could average $4k-$5k per coin and with low volumes it would be hard to pinpoint because the POP reports aren't accurate anyways (because of all the crack-outs...there are even some coins with larger POP's than believed mintages).

There currently is, and will always be, an ongoing debate between 64 and 65...there are nicer 4's than 5's, and not all 5's look like 5's anyway, so if a coin came out of a 4 holder I would bet 99 out of 100 times it would never be questioned in a 5 holder...at least no more than it is today.

So, that would be my approach -- less is more -- more profit, less coins, and pick coins where the difference between a 4 and a 5 is perennially debated.

...oh and sell them online only!! ...with disclaimer that you are not a professional numismatist but rather buy and sell slabs only...and NO refunds on slabbed coins.

Regulated · July 9, 2007 4:24AM

If you sold them online, they could trace them back to you. Somebody else needs to sell them.

MrEureka · July 9, 2007 10:19AM

If you sold them online, they could trace them back to you. Somebody else needs to sell them.

But if they get caught, you'll get caught.

On the other hand, if you spread the coins around well enough maybe nobody will ever get caught.

MrEureka · July 9, 2007 10:09PM

So what else can the TPGs do to make sure this doesn't happen? (Yes, you may now remove your evil thinking caps!)

What is the most efficient and safest way to distribute counterfeit slabs?

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