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A Double Die Issue
PocketEasyTreasures
Posts: 153
A Double Die coin is valuable and highly collected, but other forms of doubling are not. Many collectors consider Machine Doubling, Strike Doubling, etc, as damage, and has no extra value.
A double die is from the die design being engraved with doubled features, while other types of doubling can be from lose machine parts at the mint (according to Cherry Pickers Guide). I said that as simplistic as possible because my point is not how doubling occurs, but why is other forms of doubling less valuable?
I know some series show doubling damage for almost all coins for that year, 1955 Roosevelt, as one example. But what about other denominations that are not as numerous in machine doubled examples? If 1,000,000 coins are minted for a particular coin, and out of that number, say, 50,000 are machine doubled, then why not an extra value?
We know that Love Tokens and Hobo Nickels are damaged coins, but they have extra value. Plus, they didn't happen at the mint. At least, all the forms of doubling did happen during the minting process, and in most cases are more rare than the normal struck coin of any denomination or series.
I just wondered about some of your thoughts on this. The Poor Man's Double Die is the most popular example of machine doubling, and is in no way a doubled die. But the doubling is there and the majority of the 1955 Cents do not show any doubling, but this coin is still considered damaged with no extra value.
A double die is from the die design being engraved with doubled features, while other types of doubling can be from lose machine parts at the mint (according to Cherry Pickers Guide). I said that as simplistic as possible because my point is not how doubling occurs, but why is other forms of doubling less valuable?
I know some series show doubling damage for almost all coins for that year, 1955 Roosevelt, as one example. But what about other denominations that are not as numerous in machine doubled examples? If 1,000,000 coins are minted for a particular coin, and out of that number, say, 50,000 are machine doubled, then why not an extra value?
We know that Love Tokens and Hobo Nickels are damaged coins, but they have extra value. Plus, they didn't happen at the mint. At least, all the forms of doubling did happen during the minting process, and in most cases are more rare than the normal struck coin of any denomination or series.
I just wondered about some of your thoughts on this. The Poor Man's Double Die is the most popular example of machine doubling, and is in no way a doubled die. But the doubling is there and the majority of the 1955 Cents do not show any doubling, but this coin is still considered damaged with no extra value.
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i guess because one type of doubling is much more common.
<< <i>Many collectors consider Hub Doubling, Machine Doubling, Strike Doubling, etc, as damage, and has no extra value. >>
Hub doubling is what caused the 1955 Doubled die!
Lincoln set Colorless Set
Strike doubling, machine doubling, errosion doubling, ejection doubling are errors not varieties. Each coin can be unique, they're not from one specific die. If you look too close at coins almost every coin has some microscopic errors. To me they detract from the coin unless it's a conversation piece but in any case they don't have much value.
Someone might collect them just like people collects die cracks, gouges, worn out dies but these are minor errors and typicaly low value (unless that gouge is special or a leaf on your Wisconsin quarter).
It's fine to collect anything you like!
"ejection" or "machine" doubling coins
appears to be a relatively "low" number,
and the question is "why don't they have
a premium?", the answer is pretty simple:
There's approx. 49,950 more coins available
than there are collectors of such doubling.
Also, this type of doubling is "as struck", and
has been mentioned earlier, it is not an error,
but part and parcel of the striking operation.
It's on many many Millions of coins each year.
is often not repeated exactly with each strike. The press or carriage
will develope motions which are independent of the point in the cycle
or nearly machines will impart movement chaotically. This results in
successive coins having different parts doubled.
This is discouraging to collectors since there can be hundreds of varia-
tions of the same doubling. Collections of these might be massive.
People tend to respond by not collecting them at all resulting in very
low demand.
It is an error that can't easily be reproduced outside the mint. Or is it?
Here is the coin I found made me look twice at MDD coins.
My TV Blog
I wrote an ebay guide on the poorman's double die, because people try to make their machine doubled 1955's appear related to the 1955 DD. However, I don't see anything wrong with listing a machine doubled coin as long as it is described properly, and how this happened to the coin.
Point One...the term is doubled die with a d on the end of the word.
Coins struck from dies with multiple hubbings and therefore doubled, tripled and even quadrupled images engraved in the dies themselves are, in the overall scheme of the minting process, incredibly rare. The dies effected will produce coins that except for the die state, are identically doubled, tripled, quadrupled, etc. Once the bad die is discovered, as they often are by trained Mint employees, the die is usually pulled and replaced. If its use is not discovered, then only the coins struck from that particular die will become issues that are considered die varieties since the anomaly can be traced back to a particular die by comparison to other coins struck by the same die. There are diagnostic markers on coins that we use to identify them. The run on a double die , for example is limited.
Mechanically doubled coins are as common as dust. A loose die can hop a little during a strike and create a doubled appearance. The process of ejection from a die can damage the surface of a coin and that can cause the appearance of doubling. Since any die and billions of coins can be affected by the mechanical processes of a strike, they are not really sought after by collectors as technically they are , in fact a damage to the coin caused by the scraping of metal on the surface.
The 1955 "Poorman's Double, as it is called was a hyped coin due to the discovery of the 1955 Doubled Die variety.
The "Poorman's double filled a hole in an album that was labeled as the 1955 Doubled die. The actual cause was due to the deterioration of the dies. In the mid fifties, they used the dies to death, so to speak. Continued hammering of the dies created wear around the edges of the letters and digits in the date that were hyped as doubling. There is a form of doubling that we call die deterioration doubling that is seen on millions and millions of 1955 cents. It is not rare, just hyped. You can see die deterioration doubling equally as often on 1954 and 1953 cents. It is very common.
The rarity of true double, tripled, quadrupled etc. dies , is the reason they are valuable and collected by variety specialists.
The fact that machine or "mechanical doubling" is on huge numbers of coins and that probably 50% of all coins struck will show some form of mechanical doubling somewhere on the coin makes them fairly worthless as a numismatic collectible. The idea that 50,000 out of 1,000,000 coins would have mechanical doubling is way on the low side. But even if that was the case, a little more than 1,000,000,000 cents were struck in 1945 in Philly alone. That would mean even on the low side with a faulty low estimate of numbers, there would be 50,000,000 1945 cents with mechanical doubling of some sort. That is not rare by any stretch of the imagination.
I hope this helps,
Thanks,
Bill
myurl http://www.foundinrolls.com
There is no premium paid for a coin that does not have all its details based upon the fact that the die is worn to the point of almost being pulled.
Thanks,
Bill
myurl http://www.foundinrolls.com
<< <i>I'm trying to get a little deeper than how many people don't want them, uninformed collectors collect whatever the informed dealer or seller say they should collect. What I'm trying to say is, why is doubling from the machine held in lower esteem than hub doubling. It's referred to as damage by many, but no more damaged occured to the coin than to a true DD. I do understand they occur differently, and are more numerous and varied, but why the disrespect?
I wrote an ebay guide on the poorman's double die, because people try to make their machine doubled 1955's appear related to the 1955 DD. However, I don't see anything wrong with listing a machine doubled coin as long as it is described properly, and how this happened to the coin. >>
A die variety is not a damage.....
Machine doubled coins are disrespected because it is very often that people try to sell them as something more valuable than the valueless coins that they are. People who don't understand the minting process equate doubling to valuable.
educated collectors know the difference between doubled dies and mechanically doubled coins. They know the relative rarities of the two descriptions.
Even listing mechanically doubled coins on Ebay is frowned upon by numismatists whether they are accurately described or not. The last line in a description should warn a buyer that these are coins considered as damaged by mainstream coin collectors and they have no numismatic value. Anything less is like the stuff they advertise on the TV coin shows. It leaves the important issue out of the equation and that is that the coins are valueless to collectors unless they are so new that they don't know that yet.
myurl http://www.foundinrolls.com
And the 1955 "Poor man's double die" is the result of die deterioration doubling, not Machine Doubling.
Additionally, machine doubling is sporadic and not very consistent whereas a doubled die coin will be produced the same as all the other coins from that die set.
The very fact that there are so many out there tells me that they have little value unless, of course, they have value to you.
Rarity in coin collecting does not necessarily dictate value as much as the old supply and demand formula where supply outweighs demand which means prices go up!
If you can figure out a way to successfully market machine doubling to the masses then you will create a market and a demand which will cause prices to go up. Its basic economics.
The name is LEE!