Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. “9” is recut, showing at right. Lips parted. (Same obverse as O-111.)
Reverse: “D” and “S” are very close. Line 3 of stripe 4 extends below shield. “I” centered under right side of “T”. This late die state has a crack at top of “TATES OF AMERI”, and from leaves across to arrowheads. (Same reverse as 1828 O-118.)
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Obverse: All stars 1 & 7 & 8 & 13 point between dentils. A long scribe line show below date, just above dentils. Mouth is slightly open. (Obverse shared with O-116.)
Reverse: “50 C” is high, and “C” is large. On the EDS of this marriage, the short stubby V-shaped top on “5” is recut; recutting does not show on this specimen. First “A” in “AMERICA” is filled at its top. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-118.)
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
The O-106 is a hard marriage to pin down against the O-107, which shares the reverse. On the O-106, the digits in the date are equally spaced from the rim. On the O-107, they are not.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Obverse: All stars 1 & 7 & 8 & 13 point between dentils. Mouth is slightly open. This LDS shows a faint crack from above “9”, across curls, and to star 11. (Obverse shared with O-117.)
Reverse: In the space left of stripe 4, a pointed protrusion shows in the lower third. Second “T” in “STATES” is low, and its lower right serif is very thin. Legend had medium size letters, larger than normal. A rusty die is cause for a clump of lumps below and above eagle’s head, and at various other locations. Arrowheads nearly touch “A”, and “U” nearly touches left wing tip. This LDS shows a crack spanning the entire reverse, also a lump on the “R”, showing at middle right. Right sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
Note: This specimen has a rotated die.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Here's an 1829, O-101 1829/1827, R1. Someday I'll probably send this one in to NCS and let them do some non destructive conservation. Still, I like the strike.
Here is another missing 1829 die marriage: The 1829 O-109, R4+. Both the EDS and the LDS?
I don't know why but this was another one of the 1829 die marriages that it was difficult for me to find in problem-free examples. Perhaps the R4+ rarity is a hint with only 81 to 120 specimens thought to exist.
The goal of my die state collection is to collect both the EDS and the LDS of each die marriage, but I suspect neither of my two coins 100% meet these requirements. Why? I will explain after the die marriage discussion. Also I am not happy with the grade of my O-109, but sometimes collecting Busties we cannot have our wishes met everytime.
This 1829 die marriage was the third Bust Halve die marriage struck in the calendar year 1830. The Mint struck the 1830 O-106, R2 first. Then the 1829 O-108, R2. ...and then this 1829 O-109 die marriage.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 5. This was the second and last use of this die. The die was used immediately prior to strike the 1829 O-108.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die F. This was the first of two uses of this die. The die was used immediately after to strike the 1830 O-113.
The quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) At the top of the "F" of OF, protruding just left of the serif, there is a short die line. A similar die line goes left from the bottom left serif of the first A in AMERICA. (2) There is a die line connecting the upper pair of olive leaves to the middle left pair of olive leaves. It passes thru the stem of the upper berry. (3) There are die lines "evident on most specimens" (per the O/P book) between the end of bust and the edge. (I cannot see them on my coins, unless I am looking in the wrong spot.)
THE "A-MODEL" or Late Die State or O-109a---as it is numbered---is the same as the O-109 except there is a die crack at the top of UNITED and another at the top of S OF AM. The O/P book also states that the tops of all three A's are filled.
SIDENOTES: (and then questions regarding my specific coins)
(a) On my "O-109" there is a hint of the beginning of a die crack (you will not see it in the photo) just under the 3 dentils between the D and S. This means that first die crack that is one of the diagnostics of the O-109a started here and then progresses---through die usage---across the top of UNITED and ends finally at the milling opposite the upper left pair of leaves. This tells me that my coin is really an Intermediate Die State and not the EDS. Because the die states of this DM ALL carry the R4+ rating, I am free to call my coin the O-109.
(b) Also in the diagnostics of the reverse of the O-109 there is no mention of any filled A's. The O-109a diagnostics state that ALL the A's are filled. On my "O-109" the 1st A has a small die chip in it, the 2nd and 3rd A's are about 80% fillled. On my "O-109a"---complete with ALL of the diagnostic die cracks---the 1st A has the small die chip in it (just like my O-109), but the 2nd and 3rd A's are only about 50% filled. This means---because the A's are not ALL filled---my "O-109a" is a later IDS than my "O-109" IDS.
QUESTIONS:
If my "O-109" was struck first---as evidenced by the lack of the complete die crack(s), why are its A2 and A3 apparently filled more than they are on my "O-109a" with the die cracks?
Per the O/P book the A's should be filled on the LDS of this DM. After striking the O-109a, the reverse die was then used to strike the 1830 O-113. ...the on the 1830 O-113 the O/P book states that "A2 and A3 are usually filled solid...A1 is often partly filled." If the A's were filled (the die chipped, that is) on the 1829 O-109a, how did at least the A1 on the 1830 O-113 get "partly filled" (now the die only HALF chipped, that is)? How does the die get un-chipped? How do we go---as we progress through die usage---from a "filled A" to a "partly filled A?"
Edmerlr, The down and dirty answer is "It can't". Now with that said, the longer answer is, there are a lot of other weird things that can happen along the way, but first you'll need more examples, or preferably several examples of each (not necessarily an easy thing to do unless you have BHNC members bring them to ANA). These examples need to be studied under a stereo microscope and several examples need to be put in their proper progression showing the die cracks/ filling of the A's. I never go precisely by the O/P book because as you know Al was never into the various die states of the same variety - so any information regarding this is questionable (in my opinion) as it was beyond the scope and knowledge of the O/P book authors. Now, again, with that said, any "guess" as to how this could have, did or didn't occur would just be blind guesses.
Remember the 1809 Jerry W. found about a year ago that looked like clear recutting on the "0" and "9"? Just like we see recutting on dozens of other pieces or even remnants of overdates (see below).
Some thought a possible new marriage, others thought "I have no idea" and still others wanted to have several BHNC members personally view it before comments were made. So, no one was ready to state one way or the other until it could be viewed in hand, up close, under extreme magnification. Several did. What was it? Well, with a little careful examination and physical prodding by D.F. it finally came right off the coin! Mystery solved!
Or, like the study I did on the 1820/19 (over 18), O-101 in Bust Half Fever (pg. 452) concerning that specific possibility, originally brought out by William Atkinson some 15 years ago. Thru that study more information was brought out and presented - but sometimes it take years or decades to get the true answer. It usually is worth the wait to get it right - but these things can drive one nuts in the meantime (you know - BUST HALF NUTS!).
So, at this point it time, without actually studying several pieces - I have no idea! If anyone else would like to take a stab at this, like you, I'm all ears too!
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. 18 is recut showing at top. 29 is recut showing below bases. The curl base 2 is cut over a square base 2. (Obverse shared with O-102.)
Reverse: Left base of A2 (First A in AMERICA) is recut, showing below base. A diagonal line extends up into the feathers from the apex of the shield. Close 50 C is high and large. Top of nearly closed C is weak, and close to olive stem. Left sides of I and T are in line.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I haven't read thru the entire post, but here are two dies states to look for, O.118 without filled As, very tough, may only be a few extant, as 118 seems to be very rare, maybe R5+, and this one, a 107 with bisecting crack from right of date to star 6 (?) and a curving crack along the tip of the bust-
Ed, You said "...My 1829 O-118 has about 90-95% of the 2nd A filled." If it didn't have that old toning/dirt in the crevasse how would it look? As the filling tapers down to the crossbar of "A". If you look at Mozin's O-117, Rev. N shared by the two marriages. His 2-A is filled...But thats because the O-118 was struck before the O-117 (via L/G). And you can see the upper part of the crossbar of "A" too! Stuff that in your pipe...And think Mike...
O/P also states it, and get this...." A-2 is filled solid at the top on most, partly filled on a few"
I read your post and took a moment out of my busy schedule to think.
The reverse die was used first on the 1829 O-118 and then on the 1829 O-117.
Looking at A2 on my O-117's reverse I can see that it is not 100% filled. Hard to see in the photo below, but there is a tiny open space above the A's cross bar.
Per O/P regarding the O-118: "A2 is filled at top on most, partly on a few, and on some not filled."
How die we get - on the O-118 - from [completely, is MY assumption with the use of the following word:] filled at top on most, and then not 100% filled on the O-117 which was struck after?
I guess - with no fault implied here - it all boils down to one's definition of the word "filled."
A person could spend a lot of time studying the DM's with the filled letters. ...and then comparing the coins found with the O/P book diagnostics.
So much to do. So much to study. So much to think about. ...and so little time, because life (and other needs) keeps getting in our way.
See Ed you don't have to read all that deep into it. Just look at what is in front of you! Compare, compare, compare. In the end it comes out. And I will second your opinon for the love of a Bustie. Mike...
Regarding your questions about intermediate 109s, remember that cracks can be partially or totally effaced by lapping, but die chips are forever. You can't fix chips, not in 1829. Perhaps modern welding methods would allow it, I haven't a clue. So use the chips to set your timeline. And yes, 109 exists as a true prime; I once owned the finest before it went to deOlden. http://www.stacks.com/lotdetail.aspx?lrid=AN00020961
As for the apparent inconsistencies in Overton, Fever stated it well- Overton and Don just didn't care about all the intermediate states that they knew existed but didn't care to catalog. Their only goal was to identify each die and each die marriage in the early half dollar series, and in this, they succeeded remarkably well. No new turban die or die marriage has been discovered since 1983, although #34 is convinced that an 1832 will be found currently attributed as something else, a la 1807 O.115. BTW, this member is very knowledgeable and likeable and is someone you should get to know.
A few preturb DMs have been discovered since the 3rd ed. was published, but 1794 O.111, a unique AG 3, was found by the old Bowers and Merena group; a possibly unique 1795 O.132, G 6, rumored to exist in Beistle, turned up in a So. Cal. coin shop; a unique VF 1806 O.128 was discovered by a well known bloodhound; a POS holed 1806 O.129 was discovered here on the forum; a unique VF-EF O.130 muling of known dies was discovered earlier this year by the keen eyed Mark Borckardt; and 1807 O.115, reliably misattributed, was discovered here on the forum. If that sounds like a lot, I'd disagree! That's only 8 coins and six die marriages found since 1990, out of how many total preturbs in existence? That's a pretty good record!
Hopefully this will help you understand why I've preached that Overton should only be used as a guide for die states. Most of what exists isn't in the book and it's up to us to write a comprehensive die state book, even if it's here on the forum.
The O-109 die state is identical to the O-109a except that A1 and A2 are not filled.
The jury is out as far as the true rarity of this die state. There is some possible confusion:
(1) In the 3rd Edition of the O/P book this die state is listed as R5, i.e., RARE.
(2) In 1998 the Bust Half Nut Club reviewed the rarity and gave it a R3, or scarce rarity rating.
(3) In the 4th Edition of the O/P book the die state is listed a R3.
(4) Steve Herrman in his "Auction & Mail Bid Price Records" (AMBPR) shows that here have only been 4 total completed (and reported) sales of this die state in the last 12 years. Because of these too few records, Herrman suggests a probable correct rarity of R5+. He also states that to be a R5+, BOTH A1 and A2 are not filled.
(5) Checking Rutherford's "Bust Half Prices" you will find 16 auction records in the last 16 years. ...but many of the coins listed have at least A1 or A2 filled. Rutherford lists this die state as a R5.
Here is a missing die STATE from our thread: the 1829 O-108, R2
The O-108 is the same as the O-108a, except that A3 is not filled.
Key identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) On the obverse there are die lines between the end of the bust and the edge. (2) Top of the 5 is recut. The 5 is higher than the 0 and tipped to the left. The C of 50 C. is also sharply tipped to the left.
My coin has two curious "things" on the reverse. These will be mentioned after the photo of the reverse.
Photos of my 1829 O-108, R2:
There are numerous die spots within the area of the leaves. This was caused by a rusty die.
I cannot figure out what is between the C and A of AMERICA. This is not debris or crud on the coin. It appears to be die cracks, but this is not present on my 1829 O-108a. It is definately not a mark or scratch on the coin. WHAT IS IT? DOES ANYBODY OUT THERE HAVE AN IDEA? (There is a die spot caused by the rusted die below A3.)
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Star 7 points to upper half of dentil, and to top of curl. 9 is high. Mouth is open. (Obverse shared with O-118.)
Reverse: Many lines from stripes 5 and 6 extend too far downwards, into field, and on to upper claw. Many crossbars extend too far right, and into wing. A in STATES is recut, showing at left. Left sides of I and T are in line.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
All right, no one's posted anything here in about a week so here is another 1829/1827 (the entire date is overpunched - and the curl base 2 is over a square base 2). This one is O-102a, R5 (with crack from edge, through 9, to hair above, to clasp). Ed (edmerlr) gave an excellent description of his piece earlier in this thread. Also, compare to Mozin's earlier post of this variety. I've also included a close-up of the crack mentioned.
Your 1829/7 O-102a looks to have strong AU details. Bet PCGS would call it AU 55. Nice cherry for the R5 die state, worth almost triple the earlier die state.
Edgar That's an awesome overdate, is it the finest known? Looks AU62 to me. Quite a nice reverse strike, I've been looking it over since you posted it. What do you think caused the obverse die to crack? Also, wasn't there a numeric punch change in 1829? (to smaller numbers) But as always, a Fever Crusty Busty!!! Nice Find! Mike...
I had to pay almost a mortgage payment for my 1829 O-102a, but yours was probably only the cost of a few trips to McDonalds. I am not the jealous type, but...
Here's a missing die state of the 1829 O-110, R2. The "Large Letters" variety. The O-110a, R2 has already been shown:
Cool-E-O Ed... That'll be the day MacDonalds gives out Busties in change, maybe we can get them to start a numismatic giveaway contest....? Where are we on the last updated marriages and die states? I've lost the link. Mike
Thanks for the nice comments on the 1829/1827 O-102a. I don't know what PCGS would grade this piece. I've fooled around with it under the stereo microscope and can't really find anything in the way of definite wear. There is a slight strike weakness in the Eagle's right claw, opposite Miss Liberty's Cap - but other than that I see no wear. The surfaces appear to be original (there are NO hairlines) and the luster (satiny) is full cartwheel with no breaks (my scanner blows out the luster on coins but is great capturing the detail).
i.e. Finest Known? Steve Herrman's AMBPR lists/tracks eleven pieces with the finest, to date, being the former Chuck DeOlden piece (ex Prouty, ex Higgins) - a PCGS AU58. That piece is the finest known listed and the next finest known listed was sold in 2001 and is from the Superior - Long Beach Auction and was listed as AU55. I'll probably forward the image of this one to Chuck and Brad and see what they think concerning strike comparison.
Mike, I haven't had the chance to study the cause of the die crack on the obverse, in detail, but I'll bet it was due to a clash. You know, there is NEVER enough time to study everything and the list keeps growing!
Edgar
P.S. Anyone that is trying to keep track of Auction and Mail Bid Prices Realized for Capped Bust Half Dollars REALLY needs a copy of Steve Herrman's AMBPR - (Auction and Mail Bid Prices Realized), which Steve meticulously keeps up to date. A Gem! Inexpensive and worth twice the price!
Here are a few pics of my O-109 that I purchased from Ed. This coin was shown earlier in the thread, but.......some may not know this so hush hush.... Ed doesn't always capture the real uummpphh of his coins. I know that may come as a shock to some but... So I will just show some of the die characteristics of a 109. On the obverse this one shows some of the die lines between the end of the bust and the edge. On the reverse there is a strong die line crossing the branch and joining the upper and lower pair of olive leaves, a die line to the left of the left serif of F, and a die prong coming from the left wing under the head, as well as the filled A's, not completely filled in this die state. Thanks for this one Ed.
Hey Mike, Yes this one is the IDS that Ed talked about earlier. I can see a nice die crack above the D S and the early crack forming above UNITED. There are also nice split serifs showing on the second T in states and to a more minor degree on the first T, as well as recutting on the E in UNITED. There is also good doubling on all the incuse letters of EPU. Interesting coin...just like I like them.
Here is another O-111a in an old scratched little ANACS slab. Sorry for the older poor pics but this is a nice colorful crusty busty with some of her characteristics shown.
Comments
Edgar
Some diagnostics for Large Letter 1829 O-110A R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. “9” is recut, showing at right. Lips parted. (Same obverse as O-111.)
Reverse: “D” and “S” are very close. Line 3 of stripe 4 extends below shield. “I” centered under right side of “T”. This late die state has a crack at top of “TATES OF AMERI”, and from leaves across to arrowheads. (Same reverse as 1828 O-118.)
I like your 1829, O-102a! Nice and "crusty" too!
Here's a few more for comparison pieces - even though I think examples have been listed.
Edgar
First us is the 1829 O-103. I wish all my set pieces looked like this one!
Edgar
Edgar
Some diagnostics for 1829 O-117 R2:
Obverse: All stars 1 & 7 & 8 & 13 point between dentils. A long scribe line show below date, just above dentils. Mouth is slightly open. (Obverse shared with O-116.)
Reverse: “50 C” is high, and “C” is large. On the EDS of this marriage, the short stubby V-shaped top on “5” is recut; recutting does not show on this specimen. First “A” in “AMERICA” is filled at its top. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-118.)
I'll update with better pics when I get the coin in hand.
The O-106 is a hard marriage to pin down against the O-107, which shares the reverse. On the O-106, the digits in the date are equally spaced from the rim. On the O-107, they are not.
Some diagnostics for 1829 O-116a R3:
Obverse: All stars 1 & 7 & 8 & 13 point between dentils. Mouth is slightly open. This LDS shows a faint crack from above “9”, across curls, and to star 11. (Obverse shared with O-117.)
Reverse: In the space left of stripe 4, a pointed protrusion shows in the lower third. Second “T” in “STATES” is low, and its lower right serif is very thin. Legend had medium size letters, larger than normal. A rusty die is cause for a clump of lumps below and above eagle’s head, and at various other locations. Arrowheads nearly touch “A”, and “U” nearly touches left wing tip. This LDS shows a crack spanning the entire reverse, also a lump on the “R”, showing at middle right. Right sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
Note: This specimen has a rotated die.
Edgar
This is one of several Proof-like Busties in my collection.
Proof-like Busties are gorgeous, but every darn little scratch or ding appears mulitplied ten-fold in the coin's field.
Photos of my 1829 O-113, R3:
Same as O-105 except:
(1) On the obverse the clasp is faintly struck.
(2) On the reverse the arrowshafts near the claws are lapped away.
Photos of my 1829 O-105a, R1:
I don't know why but this was another one of the 1829 die marriages that it was difficult for me to find in problem-free examples. Perhaps the R4+ rarity is a hint with only 81 to 120 specimens thought to exist.
The goal of my die state collection is to collect both the EDS and the LDS of each die marriage, but I suspect neither of my two coins 100% meet these requirements. Why? I will explain after the die marriage discussion. Also I am not happy with the grade of my O-109, but sometimes collecting Busties we cannot have our wishes met everytime.
This 1829 die marriage was the third Bust Halve die marriage struck in the calendar year 1830. The Mint struck the 1830 O-106, R2 first. Then the 1829 O-108, R2. ...and then this 1829 O-109 die marriage.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 5. This was the second and last use of this die. The die was used immediately prior to strike the 1829 O-108.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die F. This was the first of two uses of this die. The die was used immediately after to strike the 1830 O-113.
The quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) At the top of the "F" of OF, protruding just left of the serif, there is a short die line. A similar die line goes left from the bottom left serif of the first A in AMERICA.
(2) There is a die line connecting the upper pair of olive leaves to the middle left pair of olive leaves. It passes thru the stem of the upper berry.
(3) There are die lines "evident on most specimens" (per the O/P book) between the end of bust and the edge. (I cannot see them on my coins, unless I am looking in the wrong spot.)
THE "A-MODEL" or Late Die State or O-109a---as it is numbered---is the same as the O-109 except there is a die crack at the top of UNITED and another at the top of S OF AM. The O/P book also states that the tops of all three A's are filled.
SIDENOTES: (and then questions regarding my specific coins)
(a) On my "O-109" there is a hint of the beginning of a die crack (you will not see it in the photo) just under the 3 dentils between the D and S. This means that first die crack that is one of the diagnostics of the O-109a started here and then progresses---through die usage---across the top of UNITED and ends finally at the milling opposite the upper left pair of leaves. This tells me that my coin is really an Intermediate Die State and not the EDS. Because the die states of this DM ALL carry the R4+ rating, I am free to call my coin the O-109.
(b) Also in the diagnostics of the reverse of the O-109 there is no mention of any filled A's. The O-109a diagnostics state that ALL the A's are filled. On my "O-109" the 1st A has a small die chip in it, the 2nd and 3rd A's are about 80% fillled. On my "O-109a"---complete with ALL of the diagnostic die cracks---the 1st A has the small die chip in it (just like my O-109), but the 2nd and 3rd A's are only about 50% filled. This means---because the A's are not ALL filled---my "O-109a" is a later IDS than my "O-109" IDS.
QUESTIONS:
If my "O-109" was struck first---as evidenced by the lack of the complete die crack(s), why are its A2 and A3 apparently filled more than they are on my "O-109a" with the die cracks?
Per the O/P book the A's should be filled on the LDS of this DM. After striking the O-109a, the reverse die was then used to strike the 1830 O-113. ...the on the 1830 O-113 the O/P book states that "A2 and A3 are usually filled solid...A1 is often partly filled." If the A's were filled (the die chipped, that is) on the 1829 O-109a, how did at least the A1 on the 1830 O-113 get "partly filled" (now the die only HALF chipped, that is)? How does the die get un-chipped? How do we go---as we progress through die usage---from a "filled A" to a "partly filled A?"
Photos of my 1829 O-109, R4+
***************
Photos of my 1829 O-109a, R4+:
The down and dirty answer is "It can't". Now with that said, the longer answer is, there are a lot of other weird things that can happen along the way, but first you'll need more examples, or preferably several examples of each (not necessarily an easy thing to do unless you have BHNC members bring them to ANA). These examples need to be studied under a stereo microscope and several examples need to be put in their proper progression showing the die cracks/ filling of the A's. I never go precisely by the O/P book because as you know Al was never into the various die states of the same variety - so any information regarding this is questionable (in my opinion) as it was beyond the scope and knowledge of the O/P book authors. Now, again, with that said, any "guess" as to how this could have, did or didn't occur would just be blind guesses.
Remember the 1809 Jerry W. found about a year ago that looked like clear recutting on the "0" and "9"? Just like we see recutting on dozens of other pieces or even remnants of overdates (see below).
Some thought a possible new marriage, others thought "I have no idea" and still others wanted to have several BHNC members personally view it before comments were made. So, no one was ready to state one way or the other until it could be viewed in hand, up close, under extreme magnification. Several did. What was it? Well, with a little careful examination and physical prodding by D.F. it finally came right off the coin! Mystery solved!
Or, like the study I did on the 1820/19 (over 18), O-101 in Bust Half Fever (pg. 452) concerning that specific possibility, originally brought out by William Atkinson some 15 years ago. Thru that study more information was brought out and presented - but sometimes it take years or decades to get the true answer. It usually is worth the wait to get it right - but these things can drive one nuts in the meantime (you know - BUST HALF NUTS!).
So, at this point it time, without actually studying several pieces - I have no idea! If anyone else would like to take a stab at this, like you, I'm all ears too!
Edgar
Some diagnostics for 1829/1827 O-101 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. 18 is recut showing at top. 29 is recut showing below bases. The curl base 2 is cut over a square base 2. (Obverse shared with O-102.)
Reverse: Left base of A2 (First A in AMERICA) is recut, showing below base. A diagonal line extends up into the feathers from the apex of the shield. Close 50 C is high and large. Top of nearly closed C is weak, and close to olive stem. Left sides of I and T are in line.
29 107
A BHNC member showed me this die state several years ago, but I never found one til this coin was sold.
My 1829 O-118 has about 90-95% of the 2nd A filled.
My 1829 O-107 has no die cracks.
Bummer.
Here's photos of my worn 1829 O-118, R4+: (I haven't found a really nice one, yet.)
You said "...My 1829 O-118 has about 90-95% of the 2nd A filled."
If it didn't have that old toning/dirt in the crevasse how would it look?
As the filling tapers down to the crossbar of "A".
If you look at Mozin's O-117, Rev. N shared by the two marriages.
His 2-A is filled...But thats because the O-118 was struck before the O-117 (via L/G).
And you can see the upper part of the crossbar of "A" too!
Stuff that in your pipe...And think
Mike...
O/P also states it, and get this...." A-2 is filled solid at the top on most, partly filled on a few"
I read your post and took a moment out of my busy schedule to think.
The reverse die was used first on the 1829 O-118 and then on the 1829 O-117.
Looking at A2 on my O-117's reverse I can see that it is not 100% filled. Hard to see in the photo below, but there is a tiny open space above the A's cross bar.
Per O/P regarding the O-118: "A2 is filled at top on most, partly on a few, and on some not filled."
How die we get - on the O-118 - from [completely, is MY assumption with the use of the following word:] filled at top on most, and then not 100% filled on the O-117 which was struck after?
I guess - with no fault implied here - it all boils down to one's definition of the word "filled."
A person could spend a lot of time studying the DM's with the filled letters. ...and then comparing the coins found with the O/P book diagnostics.
So much to do. So much to study. So much to think about. ...and so little time, because life (and other needs) keeps getting in our way.
God, I love Busties!
Photo of my 1829 O-117's reverse:
Just look at what is in front of you!
Compare, compare, compare.
In the end it comes out.
And I will second your opinon for the love of a Bustie.
Mike...
Regarding your questions about intermediate 109s, remember that cracks can be partially or totally effaced by lapping, but die chips are forever. You can't fix chips, not in 1829. Perhaps modern welding methods would allow it, I haven't a clue. So use the chips to set your timeline. And yes, 109 exists as a true prime; I once owned the finest before it went to deOlden. http://www.stacks.com/lotdetail.aspx?lrid=AN00020961
As for the apparent inconsistencies in Overton, Fever stated it well- Overton and Don just didn't care about all the intermediate states that they knew existed but didn't care to catalog. Their only goal was to identify each die and each die marriage in the early half dollar series, and in this, they succeeded remarkably well. No new turban die or die marriage has been discovered since 1983, although #34 is convinced that an 1832 will be found currently attributed as something else, a la 1807 O.115. BTW, this member is very knowledgeable and likeable and is someone you should get to know.
A few preturb DMs have been discovered since the 3rd ed. was published, but 1794 O.111, a unique AG 3, was found by the old Bowers and Merena group; a possibly unique 1795 O.132, G 6, rumored to exist in Beistle, turned up in a So. Cal. coin shop; a unique VF 1806 O.128 was discovered by a well known bloodhound; a POS holed 1806 O.129 was discovered here on the forum; a unique VF-EF O.130 muling of known dies was discovered earlier this year by the keen eyed Mark Borckardt; and 1807 O.115, reliably misattributed, was discovered here on the forum. If that sounds like a lot, I'd disagree! That's only 8 coins and six die marriages found since 1990, out of how many total preturbs in existence? That's a pretty good record!
Hopefully this will help you understand why I've preached that Overton should only be used as a guide for die states. Most of what exists isn't in the book and it's up to us to write a comprehensive die state book, even if it's here on the forum.
This is the same as the O-112, R1 except that the quite prominate die lines below star 13 have been removed by the lapping of the die.
Photos of my 1829 O-112a, R2:
The O-109 die state is identical to the O-109a except that A1 and A2 are not filled.
The jury is out as far as the true rarity of this die state. There is some possible confusion:
(1) In the 3rd Edition of the O/P book this die state is listed as R5, i.e., RARE.
(2) In 1998 the Bust Half Nut Club reviewed the rarity and gave it a R3, or scarce rarity rating.
(3) In the 4th Edition of the O/P book the die state is listed a R3.
(4) Steve Herrman in his "Auction & Mail Bid Price Records" (AMBPR) shows that here have only been 4 total completed (and reported) sales of this die state in the last 12 years. Because of these too few records, Herrman suggests a probable correct rarity of R5+. He also states that to be a R5+, BOTH A1 and A2 are not filled.
(5) Checking Rutherford's "Bust Half Prices" you will find 16 auction records in the last 16 years. ...but many of the coins listed have at least A1 or A2 filled. Rutherford lists this die state as a R5.
Photos of my 1829 O-104, R5+?:
The O-108 is the same as the O-108a, except that A3 is not filled.
Key identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) On the obverse there are die lines between the end of the bust and the edge.
(2) Top of the 5 is recut. The 5 is higher than the 0 and tipped to the left. The C of 50 C. is also sharply tipped to the left.
My coin has two curious "things" on the reverse. These will be mentioned after the photo of the reverse.
Photos of my 1829 O-108, R2:
There are numerous die spots within the area of the leaves. This was caused by a rusty die.
I cannot figure out what is between the C and A of AMERICA. This is not debris or crud on the coin. It appears to be die cracks, but this is not present on my 1829 O-108a. It is definately not a mark or scratch on the coin. WHAT IS IT? DOES ANYBODY OUT THERE HAVE AN IDEA? (There is a die spot caused by the rusted die below A3.)
Some diagnostics for 1829 O-119 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Star 7 points to upper half of dentil, and to top of curl. 9 is high. Mouth is open. (Obverse shared with O-118.)
Reverse: Many lines from stripes 5 and 6 extend too far downwards, into field, and on to upper claw. Many crossbars extend too far right, and into wing. A in STATES is recut, showing at left. Left sides of I and T are in line.
Edgar
Edgar
1829/1827 O-102a
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Nice to see a lady joining us. We now have 138 CU members contributing to our CBH series.
Your 1829/7 O-102a looks to have strong AU details. Bet PCGS would call it AU 55. Nice cherry for the R5 die state, worth almost triple the earlier die state.
===========================================================
Boom,
You are not officially a member of the CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series until you show a coin in the proper year thread.
That's an awesome overdate, is it the finest known?
Looks AU62 to me.
Quite a nice reverse strike, I've been looking it over since you posted it.
What do you think caused the obverse die to crack?
Also, wasn't there a numeric punch change in 1829? (to smaller numbers)
But as always, a Fever Crusty Busty!!!
Nice Find!
Mike...
...some people have all the luck.
I had to pay almost a mortgage payment for my 1829 O-102a, but yours was probably only the cost of a few trips to McDonalds. I am not the jealous type, but...
Here's a missing die state of the 1829 O-110, R2. The "Large Letters" variety. The O-110a, R2 has already been shown:
That'll be the day MacDonalds gives out Busties in change, maybe we can get them to start a numismatic giveaway contest....?
Where are we on the last updated marriages and die states?
I've lost the link.
Mike
Thanks for the nice comments on the 1829/1827 O-102a. I don't know what PCGS would grade this piece. I've fooled around with it under the stereo microscope and can't really find anything in the way of definite wear. There is a slight strike weakness in the Eagle's right claw, opposite Miss Liberty's Cap - but other than that I see no wear. The surfaces appear to be original (there are NO hairlines) and the luster (satiny) is full cartwheel with no breaks (my scanner blows out the luster on coins but is great capturing the detail).
i.e. Finest Known?
Steve Herrman's AMBPR lists/tracks eleven pieces with the finest, to date, being the former Chuck DeOlden piece (ex Prouty, ex Higgins) - a PCGS AU58. That piece is the finest known listed and the next finest known listed was sold in 2001 and is from the Superior - Long Beach Auction and was listed as AU55. I'll probably forward the image of this one to Chuck and Brad and see what they think concerning strike comparison.
Mike, I haven't had the chance to study the cause of the die crack on the obverse, in detail, but I'll bet it was due to a clash. You know, there is NEVER enough time to study everything and the list keeps growing!
Edgar
P.S. Anyone that is trying to keep track of Auction and Mail Bid Prices Realized for Capped Bust Half Dollars REALLY needs a copy of Steve Herrman's AMBPR - (Auction and Mail Bid Prices Realized), which Steve meticulously keeps up to date. A Gem! Inexpensive and worth twice the price!
This is to wake up this thread again.
You will find a few 1829's on these Dansco pages:
Here's another duplicate die marriage from my collection and a missing die state for this thread.
It is the 1829/27 O-101a, R1.
This die state is identical to the O-101 die state EXCEPT on the reverse of the O-101a the die has been heavily lapped.
This lapping has removed the tail feathers, the feathers at the right side of the shield and a large portion of the arrow shafts at the claws.
but.......some may not know this so hush hush.... Ed doesn't always capture the real uummpphh of his coins. I know that may come
as a shock to some but...
So I will just show some of the die characteristics of a 109.
On the obverse this one shows some of the die lines between the end of the bust and the edge.
On the reverse there is a strong die line crossing the branch and joining the upper and lower pair of olive leaves,
a die line to the left of the left serif of F, and a die prong coming from the left wing under the head, as well as the
filled A's, not completely filled in this die state.
Thanks for this one Ed.
Did you notice the recut "O"?
Is this the IDS?
"A" not fully filled?
Mike
Yes this one is the IDS that Ed talked about earlier. I can see a nice die crack above the D S and the early crack
forming above UNITED. There are also nice split serifs showing on the second T in states and to a more minor degree on
the first T, as well as recutting on the E in UNITED. There is also good doubling on all the incuse letters of EPU.
Interesting coin...just like I like them.
1829 Capped Bust Half Dollar
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Sorry for the older poor pics but this is a nice colorful crusty busty with some of her characteristics shown.
For kicks and grins
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
1829 O-110a
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com