Proof & Mint Sets... MS-69/70 or PR69/70
llafoe
Posts: 7,220 ✭✭
Okay... I've read the dissenting "modern" coin / bullion "crap" postings. Inevitably, someone mentions that ALL modern crap shouldn't be slabbed because ALL coins in proof sets are either PR-69 or PR-70 and all mint sets should be either MS-69 or MS-70.
As for the proof sets... the average proof coin is PR-69DCAM (or PF69UCAM at the other TPG). This may be true, but there are some PR70DCAM and some others that are PR67, PR68 and some that are only CAM while others have no cameo effect. Obviously, the better coins are picked and submitted to a TPG. The longer a proof set has been minted, the less likely you'll be able to cherrypick a good DCAM from a coin show. What is the harm in slabbing the cream coins?
Now for the mint sets... the average mint coin is a MS-66 or MS-67 (MS-68 or MS-69 for SMS). It is VERY rare to see an MS-70 coin (not bullion). In theory, a mint coin should be equal to a proof coin in that they're in the same state once they leave the mint (The proof set should have mostly perfect coins -69, with a few perfect coins produced by first strikes - 70 and a few produced by worn dies - 68. The same should be true for mint sets... most should be 69s with a few being perfect for EVERY coin produced -70 and a few produced by worn dies - 67 or 68. (since they don't retired mint dies as quickly as they retire proof dies.)) Why is there a difference between proof and mint grades?
Having said all of this... why does bullion always seem to get a 69 or 70 when coins tend to receive much lesser grades? Aren't they produced using the same techniques? Aren't they minted at the same facilities? NONE of the coins or bullion in the mint or proof sets have been circulated? Why the delta?
As for the proof sets... the average proof coin is PR-69DCAM (or PF69UCAM at the other TPG). This may be true, but there are some PR70DCAM and some others that are PR67, PR68 and some that are only CAM while others have no cameo effect. Obviously, the better coins are picked and submitted to a TPG. The longer a proof set has been minted, the less likely you'll be able to cherrypick a good DCAM from a coin show. What is the harm in slabbing the cream coins?
Now for the mint sets... the average mint coin is a MS-66 or MS-67 (MS-68 or MS-69 for SMS). It is VERY rare to see an MS-70 coin (not bullion). In theory, a mint coin should be equal to a proof coin in that they're in the same state once they leave the mint (The proof set should have mostly perfect coins -69, with a few perfect coins produced by first strikes - 70 and a few produced by worn dies - 68. The same should be true for mint sets... most should be 69s with a few being perfect for EVERY coin produced -70 and a few produced by worn dies - 67 or 68. (since they don't retired mint dies as quickly as they retire proof dies.)) Why is there a difference between proof and mint grades?
Having said all of this... why does bullion always seem to get a 69 or 70 when coins tend to receive much lesser grades? Aren't they produced using the same techniques? Aren't they minted at the same facilities? NONE of the coins or bullion in the mint or proof sets have been circulated? Why the delta?
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<< <i>Now for the mint sets... the average mint coin is a MS-66 or MS-67 (MS-68 or MS-69 for SMS). It is VERY rare to see an MS-70 coin >>
Unless you're talking about satin finish coins, the average mint set coin is nowhere near MS66 or MS67, and there is no such thing as an MS70.
Russ, NCNE
The early 60's to 70's sets are even harder to find high grade coins. I've pulled several cam and dcam Kennedy's from the 60's and 70's that I thought would be high grade but in essence they would probably grade 65-68. It takes a lot to make a high grade in those particular coins and the conditions when they were minted must be optimal to score high. Try and score a DCAM in the early 1970's and you will see what I am talking about. I'm not a good grader of coins yet as I am still green but I think others here who have more experience would echo these sentiments are agree to them in part.
I believe the techniques in minting them have improved dramatically in the last 10-20 years and CAM and DCAM are more common but still DCAM/CAM is only part of the grade as other things will dictate the grade of the coin.
Now mint set grades....I'm still trying to determine how they are graded as not as much TLC is used in minting them and it is mostly a crap shoot as is everything else. Just my opinion.
This leaves the impression in the pop reports that the vast majority of all SAE's are 69's, but if you try submitting loose one's yourself, you'll find a differrent story.
I think the main contention in the OP is that mint set coins should also be 68-70 as are proofs, because they likewise never "circulated" - the problem with this logic is that the proof coins are specially handled atthe mint to avoid contacts, and the mint set coins are just regular business strike coins pulled from the bin after all of the regular banging about. So, theoretically, they may be better than bank rolled UNC's, because they never went through that process, but the picking and sealing process for sets might inflict just as much oppotunity for marks...
Rex
<< <i>
<< <i>Now for the mint sets... the average mint coin is a MS-66 or MS-67 (MS-68 or MS-69 for SMS). It is VERY rare to see an MS-70 coin >>
Unless you're talking about satin finish coins, the average mint set coin is nowhere near MS66 or MS67, and there is no such thing as an MS70.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's kind of my question... if a direct from the mint proof set has a few PR70, then why wouldn't a direct from the mint - mint set have a few MS70? Are the standards for mint and proof sets synonymous? e.g., meaning that an MS70 would mirror (no pun intended) a PR70 without the mirrors? If that's true, then why are some bullion graded MS-70, but very, VERY few coins are graded MS70?
Or... to flip it around, why doesn't the average proof set coin mirror the average mint set coin? One could argue proof coins are collector coins... but aren't mint set coins collector coins too? Aren't mint sets first run uncirculated coins?
<< <i>That's kind of my question... if a direct from the mint proof set has a few PR70, then why wouldn't a direct from the mint - mint set has a few MS70? >>
Because the production methods are radically different. Proof set coins are processed one at a time and carefully handled. Mint set coins are processed thousands at a time and dumped in hoppers.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I think the main contention in the OP is that mint set coins should also be 68-70 as are proofs, because they likewise never "circulated" - the problem with this logic is that the proof coins are specially handled atthe mint to avoid contacts, and the mint set coins are just regular business strike coins pulled from the bin after all of the regular banging about. So, theoretically, they may be better than bank rolled UNC's, because they never went through that process, but the picking and sealing process for sets might inflict just as much oppotunity for marks...
Rex >>
That sounds good if TPGs were objective... but as we all know, the TPGs grade on a sliding scale, e.g., a 1950-D will receive a FS rating with only 85-90% FSs whereas a 2006 FS must be 100% FSs. If perfection is subjective, then theoretically every issue should have at least one MS-70/PR-70 coin as a reference of perfection for that issue. That would then mean that a lot more coins should would grade higher.
Wasn't PCGS looking at having a "Master Set" of coins per issue for graders to reference? If this were true, then they would concur that EACH issue / mintmark grades differently. Why wouldn't they just want a single coin from each series in each grade if this weren't true?
...and he's right!!
Rex
<< <i>Within 3 hours Ricko will post to this thread and say that all grading will be by computer inspection in the near future, and it will eliminate these problems...
...and he's right!!
Rex >>
Then there will be HPGC, DELLGC and IBMGC slabs!
<< <i>
That sounds good if TPGs were objective... but as we all know, the TPGs grade on a sliding scale, e.g., a 1950-D will receive a FS rating with only 85-90% FSs whereas a 2006 FS must be 100% FSs. If perfection is subjective, then theoretically every issue should have at least one MS-70/PR-70 coin as a reference of perfection for that issue. That would then mean that a lot more coins should would grade higher.
Wasn't PCGS looking at having a "Master Set" of coins per issue for graders to reference? If this were true, then they would concur that EACH issue / mintmark grades differently. Why wouldn't they just want a single coin from each series in each grade if this weren't true? >>
Well, yes, and no.
There is a sort of average, worst and best for each date which is highly variable
but the best for one date might fall far short of anything that can be considered
MS-70 because of marking or other problem.
Some mint state coins, like an '88-D cent, can fall very close to perfection and there
actually is a 2003 cent graded MS-70 but most mint set coins are obviously well shy
of being perfect. It's not just dumping into bins and being loaded into magazines
that damage these coins but for some (like the '80-D half) it's being scraped by the
loading equipment or being run through a cement mixer like contraption to dry them.
Two mint sets out of three will contain at least one MS-64+ or better coin. This, too,
varies by date though and the post '04 sets are far better.