There is a solution to all the bogus self-slabbed crap on eBay.

Russ · June 15, 2007 10:49AM

Since eBay and the ANA are working together, eBay should just have the ANA develop an approved TPG list. And, for anybody who wants to start a REAL grading service, they can provide an application process for inclusion on the approved list. eBay already has an approved list for payment methods, why not TPGs?

Russ, NCNE

ColonialCoinUnion · June 15, 2007 10:55AM

This sounds like a good idea.

VamGuy · June 15, 2007 10:55AM

Didn't the ANA recently accept bids to be an official TPG? Pick a few of those.

Shamika · June 15, 2007 10:56AM

Will eBay be able to police this?

Bochiman · June 15, 2007 10:57AM

The ANA can't even keep its own house clean....too many internal problems.
I agree that something needs to be done but I don't think an "ANA approved list" is the way.

Russ · June 15, 2007 11:00AM

<< Will eBay be able to police this? >>

They already have script bots that crawl the site looking for violations, such as fake designer clothes.

<< I agree that something needs to be done but I don't think an "ANA approved list" is the way. >>

There is no other "way". eBay is not going to listen to anybody else.

Russ, NCNE

fivecents · June 15, 2007 11:07AM

Is Ebay willing to lose all the third world grading service's listing fees? I hope so, but bet not.

21Walker · June 15, 2007 11:08AM

Since eBay and the ANA are working together, eBay should just have the ANA develop an approved TPG list. And, for anybody who wants to start a REAL grading service, they can provide an application process for inclusion on the approved list. eBay already has an approved list for payment methods, why not TPGs?

Here here Russ.............Rick

ModernCrapNut · June 15, 2007 11:10AM

This would require a decision by ANA.....Horrors. If it did come about, it wouldn't take long for the sellers to start using reputable grading services unless they were willing to sell their coins raw.

Russ · June 15, 2007 11:10AM

<< Is Ebay willing to lose all the third world grading service's listing fees? I hope so, but bet not. >>

Good point. Seller's like Centsles, (NNC), and Abon, (SGS), are generating a lot of revenue.

Russ, NCNE

ziggy29 · June 15, 2007 11:16AM

<< eBay already has an approved list for payment methods, why not TPGs? >>

Because eBay doesn't own any TPGs to promote or compete against any of them to shut them out?

Sorry, was that too cynical?

BlindedByEgo · June 15, 2007 11:18AM

<< 

<< Is Ebay willing to lose all the third world grading service's listing fees? I hope so, but bet not. >>

Good point. Seller's like Centsles, (NNC), and Abon, (SGS), are generating a lot of revenue.

Russ, NCNE >>

Not only that, but you are going to ask a huge and slow moving bureaucracy to draw a line in the sand based on rational parameters. Good luck in that.

Even still, where do you draw the line? Say I put a coin in a 2X2 and write a numerical grade on it? How about if I buy it like that? How about if it's there, or on an insert in a Coin World holder, but you can barely read it?

Then... Who is going to set the parameters for the TPG's qualification? The ANA or a working group within them? Will it be based on capitalization or head count or - God forbid, patronage?

I agree that something has to be done - but as always, when something is done, innocents will end up hurt.

Someone's ox is going to get gored - will it be yours? Or mine? Or just someone that we can moralistically point our collective fingers at and say "Thank God it was them"?

mcheath · June 15, 2007 11:24AM

Throwing alot of money to the ANA does not make you reputable.

Russ · June 16, 2007 12:56AM

<< << eBay already has an approved list for payment methods, why not TPGs? >>

Because eBay doesn't own any TPGs to promote or compete against any of them to shut them out?

Sorry, was that too cynical? >>

When it comes to eBay, I'm not sure it's possible to be too cynical.

<< I agree that something has to be done - but as always, when something is done, innocents will end up hurt. >>

What innocent could possibly be hurt by allowing only legitimate TPG's to be listed?

<< Throwing alot of money to the ANA does not make you reputable. >>

This has nothing to do with throwing money at the ANA.

Russ, NCNE

ziggy29 · June 16, 2007 1:01AM

<< What innocent could possibly be hurt by allowing only legitimate TPG's to be listed? >>

The thing is, if we make the ANA the "gatekeeper" for determining which services are allowed to be listed, we need to make sure the ANA is adhering to strict objective criteria and not playing favorites with borderline services who might grease their palms in order to make the cut.

With all the stuff about wanting to sell the "official grading service" tag to the highest bidder, is it really about quality or about who can pay them off the most?

Shamika · June 16, 2007 1:08AM

<< << Will eBay be able to police this? >>

They already have script bots that crawl the site looking for violations, such as fake designer clothes. >>

All you have to do is say "CERTIFIED COIN" in the auction title and show an image of the illegal slab to bypass the script bot. Heck, you can probably just create a jpeg of the written auction diescription saying anything you want and again the script bots are useless. eBay would need employees screening each auction which is just not viable.

Barry · June 16, 2007 1:09AM

Never happen. ANA is too worried about being sued.

Russ · June 16, 2007 1:17AM

<< << << Will eBay be able to police this? >>

They already have script bots that crawl the site looking for violations, such as fake designer clothes. >>

All you have to do is say "CERTIFIED COIN" in the auction title and show an image of the illegal slab to bypass the script bot. Heck, you can probably just create a jpeg of the written auction diescription saying anything you want and again the script bots are useless. eBay would need employees screening each auction which is just not viable. >>

Simple solution is to require that for graded coins the TPG be named in the title, and any auction that just says "certified" or "slabbed", etc gets nuked. Also, there are plenty of people watching and reporting auctions already, so many of those that do slip by would be found without the need for eBay employees to screen each auction.

<< Never happen. ANA is too worried about being sued. >>

The ANA just helps develop the criteria and the list. eBay is the enforcement arm, and eBay has lots of experience with being sued.

Russ, NCNE

bushmaster8 · June 16, 2007 1:31AM

bushmaster8 · June 16, 2007 1:32AM

It is a noble idea.

Now send me smoe of that bud you smokin' Russ. That be trippin' weed!

fc · June 16, 2007 2:47AM

how about people start taking responsibility for being so dumb
and stop blaming ebay or the ANA for not taking action?

if people wish to blindly bid on coins on ebay in some strange slab
without googling to do any research, i could care less about them.

i am tired of listening to people complain for the lowest common
denominator collector. geez.

storm888 · June 16, 2007 3:09AM

"Is Ebay willing to lose all the third world grading service's listing fees?"

Absolutely NOT.

//////

"i am tired of listening to people complain for the lowest common
denominator collector.

If new collectors are not protected/warned, someday there will be
no old collectors.

Writersblock · June 17, 2007 12:18AM

<< << eBay already has an approved list for payment methods, why not TPGs? >>

Because eBay doesn't own any TPGs to promote or compete against any of them to shut them out? >>

Great suggestion, I think I'll propose to eBay that they start their own grading service and forbid anyone to mention a grade in their auctions unless they have paid eBay Grading Service $20 for their services endorsement.

<< how about people start taking responsibility for being so dumb
and stop blaming ebay or the ANA for not taking action? >>

AMEN!

BigE · June 17, 2007 12:49AM

<< Never happen. ANA is too worried about being sued. >>

They have tons in their legal defense fund

-----------BigE

MrEureka · June 17, 2007 1:09AM

This sounds like a good idea.

I disagree. The ANA should keep their distance from this tinderbox. Instead, more effort should be made to educate the public as to what exactly a TPG is and what it can and cannot do.

seatedcollector · June 17, 2007 1:21AM

i agree with fc, 90% of ebay buyers are looking for the proverbial "something for nothing" why is it not the buyers responsibility to at least have some idea what they are buying ? the ANA should maybe place a little effort into cleaning up thier own problems instead of getting involved in others. in reality, ebay has no reason to police themselves, there are plenty of ebay police wannabes

StrikeOutXXX · June 17, 2007 1:25AM

<< This sounds like a good idea.

I disagree. The ANA should keep their distance from this tinderbox. Instead, more effort should be made to educate the public as to what exactly a TPG is and what it can and cannot do. >>

My 1st thought was take the ANA services/The 4 biggies <PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG> and then the few others that most on the boards agree at least try and are legit, but maybe aren't perfect <PCI, few others> and those are the only ones allowed to be listed as "Certified". Make little radio buttons to pick the service you have during listing. If it isn't in the list, your coin gets listed as raw/uncertified.

But Andy, and others are probably right - too much hassle and risk, so thought #2 was every coin listed gets a special header with something like "Consumer Warning Information" at the top, maybe a 1-inch part of the screen with links to any guides or other information coin buyers should read and make themselves aware of before bidding.

airplanenut · June 17, 2007 1:32AM

<< 

<< Is Ebay willing to lose all the third world grading service's listing fees? I hope so, but bet not. >>

Good point. Seller's like Centsles, (NNC), and Abon, (SGS), are generating a lot of revenue.

Russ, NCNE >>

Just remind eBay that the coin that sold for $100 sells for $35,000 in a PCGS holder... think about the final value fees they'd get for that one!

Connecticoin · June 17, 2007 1:37AM

Russ, have you ever forwarded any of these ideas to your personal eBay rep? If so, how have they responded?

Russ · June 17, 2007 1:47AM

<< Russ, have you ever forwarded any of these ideas to your personal eBay rep? If so, how have they responded? >>

I discussed all of it with him on the phone. There are a couple of problems. One is that he's not a coin collector, so there's a lot of difficulty in helping him grasp the concepts involved. The other problem is that eBay reps assigned to sellers don't make these kinds of decisions. They have to pass it along to Trust and Safety for dispensation.

Russ, NCNE

Connecticoin · June 17, 2007 2:10AM

<< They have to pass it along to Trust and Safety for dispensation.

Russ, NCNE >>

DOA

au58 · June 17, 2007 2:44AM

But didn't ANA allow ACG to set up at its shows for many years?

Shortgapbob · June 17, 2007 3:11AM

I personally believe, and have given my opinion this summer, that the ANA should give recognition to a group of approved grading services. I don't think it should have anything to do with giving money to the ANA, as that does not legitimize a grading service. I feel that the ANA should approve grading services as a service to the hobby, not necessarily as a revenue stream......the TPG issues are too important in my opinion. But, it doesn't look like this will happen in the near future.

ziggy29 · June 17, 2007 3:16AM

<< I personally believe, and have given my opinion this summer, that the ANA should give recognition to a group of approved grading services. I don't think it should have anything to do with giving money to the ANA, as that does not legitimize a grading service. I feel that the ANA should approve grading services as a service to the hobby, not necessarily as a revenue stream......the TPG issues are too important in my opinion. But, it doesn't look like this will happen in the near future. >>

This is a reasonable position; the only fly in the ointment is figuring out an objective set of standards to be applied fairly and consistently without regard to favors (or lack thereof) paid to the ANA.

seatedcollector · June 17, 2007 3:45AM

some responses here have inferred that if a certain grading service was to "grease the hand" of the ANA that service may get special treatment of some sort, would the ANA do something as irresponsible as that ? the ANA has shown time and time again, it is an organization FOR the collectors, with no personal agendas, no profit motives, no preferrential treatment regardless of the circumstances. hahahahahahahaaha yeah, that is a joke. as i stated previously, the ANA has enough problems of thier own. just recently these issues have become public knowledge, makes one wonder what other issues have gone on (and are going on) that no one will ever know about. it would make as much sense to PAY the ebay sellers to police each other, with no consequences for the "bad seeds"

ziggy29 · June 17, 2007 3:48AM

<< some responses here have inferred that if a certain grading service was to "grease the hand" of the ANA that service may get special treatment of some sort, would the ANA do something as irresponsible as that ? >>

The ANA has been trying to sell their "official grading service" designation to the TPGs, so yes, the TPGs can curry favor with the ANA through their financial support.

MrEureka · June 17, 2007 4:08AM

If the ANA actually endorses the most competent TPGs, naive consumers may get the idea that all of the grades are "right", and they won't see the critical need to learn how to grade for themselves. I don't think that's healthy for the consumer, for the ANA, or for the hobby in general.

cullenbryant · June 17, 2007 4:19AM

Ebay Coin Grading Service .. interesting idea

bidask · June 17, 2007 4:24AM

Just don't buy it.

Russ · June 17, 2007 4:36AM

<< If the ANA actually endorses the most competent TPGs, naive consumers may get the idea that all of the grades are "right", and they won't see the critical need to learn how to grade for themselves. >>

Yeah, it's a good thing that isn't already happening.

Russ, NCNE

ziggy29 · June 17, 2007 4:45AM

<< If the ANA actually endorses the most competent TPGs, naive consumers may get the idea that all of the grades are "right", and they won't see the critical need to learn how to grade for themselves. >>

I think over-dependence on slabs has already taken us there. Since we're already there, we might as well steer them to the slabs that are the least likely to get them screwed.

seatedcollector · June 17, 2007 5:04AM

i know that i am in the minority, but i believe that people already depend on someone else to grade for them, and so those people SHOULD only buy slabbed coins, but for those of us that can think for ourselves, if i see a coin that is overgraded i dont report it to ebay, i dont call this person, i just DONT BID ON IT is that so difficult to do ?? its already illegal to kill people, why make laws to overemphasize what already exists ? grading is SUBJECTIVE one person's VG is another person's FINE, and someone else's GOOD so if we all LEARN TO GRADE on our own, then we dont have to rely on any TPG to be honest, consistant or even real

Russ · June 17, 2007 5:08AM

<< grading is SUBJECTIVE one person's VG is another person's FINE >>

There is nothing subjective about the grading done by these self-slabbers. The term subjective implies an honest attempt to establish an opinion.

Russ, NCNE

291fifth · June 17, 2007 5:14AM

Why should a businessman be required to submit to review by an outfit like the ANA that accepts money in return for its endorsement of a specific TPG?

They shouldn't.

seatedcollector · June 17, 2007 5:34AM

im glad im not the only one who sees that paying the fox to watch the chickens is a bad idea. are there so many people spending so much money on generic slabs that it is even an issue ? why are these people spending so much money on something they obviously know NOTHING about ??? one seller of horribly overgraded crap is a board member here, his coins are in 2x2's labeled as MS64 but are actually cleaned AU's at best, and they sell for roughly AU money, not MS64 money. he could slab them himself and they probably wouldnt sell for much more. how many people here would buy a diamond on ebay if you knew nothing about diamonds ?? maybe people arent as dumb as others think they are. its thier money why not let them spend it on whatever they want ?? how come no one follows around the local crack addict and tells him not to buy from this dealer or that dealer because the crack isnt the quality its supposed to be ?

ziggy29 · June 17, 2007 5:36AM

<< grading is SUBJECTIVE one person's VG is another person's FINE, and someone else's GOOD >>

True to a point.

If I think a coin is VG, another reasonable opinion could think it's good and another could think it's fine. Or if I thought a coin was MS-63 and someone else thought it was MS-64 (or AU-58 for that matter), that's subjective opinion.

Putting obviously cleaned, polished and whizzed AUs into crap slabs as MS-66 coins goes beyond subjective difference of opinion, IMO.

MrEureka · June 17, 2007 5:47AM

<< If the ANA actually endorses the most competent TPGs, naive consumers may get the idea that all of the grades are "right", and they won't see the critical need to learn how to grade for themselves. >>

I think over-dependence on slabs has already taken us there. Since we're already there, we might as well steer them to the slabs that are the least likely to get them screwed.

I disagree. The cure for ignorance is education, and I see no reason to give up.

ziggy29 · June 17, 2007 5:49AM

<< I disagree. The cure for ignorance is education, and I see no reason to give up. >>

You're obviously more optimistic than me. I do wish your "solution" would work, but I just don't quite have enough faith in human nature. There are always going to be plenty of people who think there's a Santa Claus, and plenty of people who would put on the red robe, beard and boots to take their money.

MrEureka · June 17, 2007 7:40AM

There are always going to be plenty of people who think there's a Santa Claus, and plenty of people who would put on the red robe, beard and boots to take their money.

Agreed, but I believe that in the long run we can help more people by educating them than we can by babying them.

Russ · September 12, 2007 11:02AM

Bump.

Russ, NCNE

Myqqy · September 12, 2007 12:04PM

There are always going to be plenty of people who think there's a Santa Claus, and plenty of people who would put on the red robe, beard and boots to take their money.

Great analogy...

There is a solution to all the bogus self-slabbed crap on eBay.

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