<< <i>I've never been sure that I agree with the concept behind a "rip." It's better, I think, for a transaction to be a win-win situation for both sides. Sellers are entitled to a fair profit on their coins and buyers are entitled to a fair price for a coin. When one side or the other has a rip, well then, someone has been taken advantage off. >>
You think that the dealer I bought that SGS slab from didn't make a profit selling it? It was a BIN of a three coin set. I doubt he set the BIN at a level where he would lose money.
You think dealers from whom I buy proof sets where I get a rip are losing money? These guys are buying what comes through the door at back of bid and I've been known to pay as much 10x bid to get a set I want. I've gotten my share of rips ponying up strong premiums, but the dealers also made nice fat profits.
I definitely think a rip involves more than just luck. Finding a rare, valuable coin in a big collection after purchasing the group is just luck if you didn't know it was there. It may be a good deal, but I would not call it a rip.
To me, a rip involves using specialized knowledge and skill to identify some type of amazing bargain, such as Russ did with the SGS 1967 SMS Kennedy.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
when you have clearly purchased a coin for far less than it is actually worth
I agree with this- to me, a rip has nothing to do with the amount of value received for the money invested- it's just knowing that I would have gladly paid more money for the same coin....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
I'm experiencing a real ethical dilemma here. I've just been following a thread on these boards where a dealer bought a coin from a collector that later turned out to be a counterfeit, in this case most of the responses have been that the dealer should get his money back as it was not the genuine artifact. Now in this thread we're talking about getting a great deal because the dealer was stupid enough to give a great deal out of ignorance as well. Seems either it should be a win-win, or a very nasty survival of the fittest attitude. Not sure which side I've decided to go with so far.
Pauljuno, as you continue to read and post on this forum you will quickly come to the realization that ethics for many people on the board is based strictly on what individual made the kill. In other words, if one of the members knowing ripped off an unknowing seller by paying 10 cents on the dollar then everybody cheers. If, one the other hand, some dealer pays 50 cents on the dollar to a seller then the membership wants to hang him. I have yet to see where the difference lies, but the membership assures me that there is one.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>Pauljuno, as you continue to read and post on this forum you will quickly come to the realization that ethics for many people on the board is based strictly on what individual made the kill. In other words, if one of the members knowing ripped off an unknowing seller by paying 10 cents on the dollar then everybody cheers. If, one the other hand, some dealer pays 50 cents on the dollar to a seller then the membership wants to hang him. I have yet to see where the difference lies, but the membership assures me that there is one. >>
Another wild statement of misrepresentation. Please name some examples of what in the hell you're talking about.
Another wild statement of misrepresentation. Please name some examples of what in the hell you're talking about. >>
There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady".
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
The difference I see between a collector ripping a dealer and a dealer ripping a collector is the fact that the dealer is expected to have a certain level of knowledge and the collector isn't.
Dealer vs granny = the knowledgable ripping off the ignorant (bad)
collector vs dealer = knowledgable ripping off the knowledgable (or should be).
Not a huge ethical difference there but there is a distinction.
<< <i>There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady". >>
It is specious to compare a collector cherrypicking a dealer to a dealer ripping off a little old lady. The dealer voluntarily stepped on to the numismatic battlefield and set himself up as a professional. The little old lady did not. Your argument is without merit.
I still don't see the distinction. In both cases the seller is less knowledgable then the buyer. Should a dealer spend the time and effort to determinine what he has? Sure, but so should Granny--if it is no more than asking more than one dealer for a quote. Either way, with or without knowledge, the seller is going to receive at least what the coins are worth--TO HIM/HER or the sale won't be made.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady". >>
It is specious to compare a collector cherrypicking a dealer to a dealer ripping off a little old lady. The dealer voluntarily stepped on to the numismatic battlefield and set himself up as a professional. The little old lady did not. Your argument is without merit.
Russ, NCNE >>
And that little old lady voluntarily stepped into the shop without doing any research.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
Another wild statement of misrepresentation. Please name some examples of what in the hell you're talking about. >>
There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady". >>
<< <i>There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady". >>
It is specious to compare a collector cherrypicking a dealer to a dealer ripping off a little old lady. The dealer voluntarily stepped on to the numismatic battlefield and set himself up as a professional. The little old lady did not. Your argument is without merit.
Russ, NCNE >>
And that little old lady voluntarily stepped into the shop without doing any research. >>
Nope. She went to a professional for advice and a fair offer. Big difference.
<< <i>None of those facts makes it right, IMHO, Russ.
I can't understand or agree with that comment. >>
Let me try and further explain.
I have no problem with getting a good or great deal. That goes both ways for collectors and dealers. When I refer to rips being somewhat seemy is when someone is unfairly taken advantage of in the process. If a dealer missed a $3,000. coin and mistakenly put it in a ten buck bin, personally, I would think of it as stealing from him/her if it were me. On the other hand, if a dealer was selling me crap and I took his/her word that it was good, that would also be stealing in my opinion. These are the contexts in which I object to "rips".
Case in point, a neighbor a couple of years ago, was having his church's yard sale in his large front yard. I wasn't interested in buying but as a neighbor, I went over. Lo and behold, I discovered several outstanding classic commems (which I heavily collect) that someone had donated. They were priced between $2. and $10. bucks, if memory serves me. These were clearly MS65 coins by either of the top two standards. We are speaking of an eye appealingly toned: Hudson, Hawaiian, Isabella and about a dozen or so more. I could have picked up the whole lot for less than $100. Church sale or not, getting those coins for that total cost would have been, immoral, to me as a purchase. I told them what they had, helped them get them certified and advised them in the sale which brought them significant, big bucks.
Maybe I'm not as clear on the term "rip" as others here. That to me would have been a rip. "Rip" being short for ripoff.
Negotiating a 20-30 plus percent discount....ok, that to me would be a great deal but also a good rip. Ditto for selling something in the same manner.
However, using one's knowledge to just beat the bejeebers out of another, moneywise, to me....is just not ethically right. That's where "rip"off comes into play.
Please know and understand that I am not accusing anyone of anything here. I don't think there is a dishonest bone in any regular here. Far from it. I would buy, sight unseen from almost any regular here and I have done so from a couple in the past. I would hope that people would feel the same way about buying from me.
It a question, for me, of what constitutes a great deal as a buyer or seller versus what constitutes taking advantage of someone else.
Yes, we should have the full knowledge of what we buy or sell. I expect that of the big pros. Many of us, though, as collectors know specific areas and, occasionally, make mistakes even within them. I wouldn't want to take a fellow collector for a ride as a result of a situation such as that, nor would I want someone to do that to me.
Think of what I'm trying to say as "the numismatic Golden Rule".
I hope I've explained myself clearly enough so as to not have ruffled any feathers or left anyone feeling insulted. Please know that was never my intent and if anyone took anything I said in that manner, I apologize.
<< <i>.......................and to follow up on Russ' thought-----That's no better than the stereotypical used car dealer down the steeet with his corner car lot, is it?
i think the principal difference is that when we consider something a "Rip" it generally means that the buyer has some type of knowledge advantage over a seller who's asking a price for an item that he feels is reasonable. with the used car salesman as we typically understand them to be portrayed, they are effectively defrauding the buyer in some fashion by misrepresenting the car.
the two are in no way even close to the same thing. >>
Points well taken. I'm most concerned with one person, like anyone here....taking unfair and undue advantage of another person, like anyone here....or someone who knows little about coins. That's where I think the positive part of "rip" becomes the negative "rip"off.
<< <i>I You think dealers from whom I buy proof sets where I get a rip are losing money? These guys are buying what comes through the door at back of bid and I've been known to pay as much 10x bid to get a set I want. I've gotten my share of rips ponying up strong premiums, but the dealers also made nice fat profits.
Russ, NCNE >>
Those would be win-wins for both people then Russ, IMHO. Perhaps it's my (mis)understanding (?) of the term "rip", that is fundamental to this discussion.
<< <i>I'm experiencing a real ethical dilemma here. I've just been following a thread on these boards where a dealer bought a coin from a collector that later turned out to be a counterfeit, in this case most of the responses have been that the dealer should get his money back as it was not the genuine artifact. Now in this thread we're talking about getting a great deal because the dealer was stupid enough to give a great deal out of ignorance as well. Seems either it should be a win-win, or a very nasty survival of the fittest attitude. Not sure which side I've decided to go with so far. >>
You're summing up a number of my thoughts and feelings on this topic.
<< <i>Case in point, a neighbor a couple of years ago, was having his church's yard sale in his large front yard. I wasn't interested in buying but as a neighbor, I went over. Lo and behold, I discovered several outstanding classic commems (which I heavily collect) that someone had donated. They were priced between $2. and $10. bucks, if memory serves me. These were clearly MS65 coins by either of the top two standards. We are speaking of an eye appealingly toned: Hudson, Hawaiian, Isabella and about a dozen or so more. I could have picked up the whole lot for less than $100. >>
That is not a rip. At least not the way I define a rip. To my mind that situation would be no different than a dealer with a B&M store taking advantage of the newb who just inherited a collection.
A rip is when I do a deal with a knowledgeable seller and nail a score because he's either too lazy to do his market research, or doesn't really care about the specific area of coins that I'm buying.
For example, I once paid $50 for a 1964 proof set from a local dealer. That was five times Greysheet and was negotiated down from the $70 he started at. He wanted that kind of money because the Kennedy was a cameo. Now, I know damned well that he paid back of bid for the set because that's what all the dealers in this area do. What this dealer didn't know was that the cameo Kennedy was an Accented Hair. It graded PR68CAM, and I sold it for $1200.
Knowledge is power. People who DUMP their dead husband's coins or ESTATE stuff... or dealers who don't know or collectors who don't... should have been a little smarter and spent a little more time researching WHY her husband spent more time with coins than doing "NORMAL" things or WHY some guy has all them NUMISMATIC books on VAMS, or whatever ... This is a very nice thread for teaching !!!
The rip isn't about ethics. It is a "TERM" used for obtaining something lower than what it would cost on the open market, or for selling something for way more than it is worth on the open market. It's what makes COINS fun ! Use knowledge and learn, don't hang the guy who's smart ! I treat others with respect. Sometimes I get ripped on purpose to see just how honest or dishonest others are. How else do we gain knowledge ?
I see a distinct difference between these two scenarios:
1: "Granny" walking into a dealer and wanting to sell what her husband left her.... The dealer sees a rare date or variety but neverthelless offers FAR less than market value for the item. In this instance she is relying upon the expertise and integrity of the dealer to make a fair wholesale offer for the lot (or a coin)....
2: A collector views a DEALER'S stock, sees a rare variety amongst them and priced at far less than market value for the rare variety but a fair price for the comon variety, and purchases the coin at the dealer's quoted price...... The dealer knows what he paid for the item and has priced it at what he considers a fair price and with a markup that is acceptable to him (probably more, since he probably allows a little haggle room in the marked price)..........
Scenario one would be "Ripping Off" granny in the BAD NEGATIVE connotation of the term and would morally wrong and unethical..... Scenario two would be a "RIP" in the "acceptable" and "positive" sense....
I will grant however, that if in scenario 1, the dealer does not notice the rare variety till LONG AFTER the deal is consumated (many dealers buy stock and don't get to sort though it for weeks or months sometimes), THAT situation provides for a grey area of what is ethical.... He may or may not know where a particular coin was acquired from and has no means of contacting the original seller.... However, if for example he buys several rolls of silver dollars that were stored in tubes as common dates would be, and subsequently discovers some of them to be rolls of, for example, common Carson CIty coins, then I believe he would be obligated to pay the difference to the original seller inasmuch as he was NEGLECTFUL, and did not study the lot properly and therefore did not place the proper value on the coins involved.
In scenario 2, if the dealer happened to show the collector a coin that he had but know little about, but that he knew the collector specialized in, then the collector (the ACKNOWLEDGED expert in this case) has the moral and ethical obligation placed upon him.....
The bottom line is that dealers are supposed to be the experts.... I realize that NO dealer can be expected to know everything about all coins... That's why there are specialists..... You would NOT go to a proctologist for brain surgery (LOL: I'm aware of the analogy, which is why I chose it)..... Just as there are different doctors for different specialties, there are different attorneys for different areas of the law......
If a doctor or lawyer can not provide you with the help you need, he/she will refer you to someone that can.... By the same logic a dealer, should not take advantage of the consumer that does not have his training...... If somone brings in Ancients and he knows nothing about the, he should refer the to a dealer who has knowledge of Ancients... He should NOT simply buy it at rock bottom prices and take his chances on them..... Conversely, if he does know about the coins being offered, and he he was approached as an expert (as is a doctor or lawyer), he is ethically (and of course morally) bound to make a fair and honest offer for the coins.....
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>I've never been sure that I agree with the concept behind a "rip." It's better, I think, for a transaction to be a win-win situation for both sides. Sellers are entitled to a fair profit on their coins and buyers are entitled to a fair price for a coin. When one side or the other has a rip, well then, someone has been taken advantage off. >>
You think that the dealer I bought that SGS slab from didn't make a profit selling it? It was a BIN of a three coin set. I doubt he set the BIN at a level where he would lose money.
You think dealers from whom I buy proof sets where I get a rip are losing money? These guys are buying what comes through the door at back of bid and I've been known to pay as much 10x bid to get a set I want. I've gotten my share of rips ponying up strong premiums, but the dealers also made nice fat profits.
Russ, NCNE >>
None of those facts makes it right, IMHO, Russ.
I definitely think a rip involves more than just luck. Finding a rare, valuable coin in a big collection after purchasing the group is just luck if you didn't know it was there. It may be a good deal, but I would not call it a rip.
To me, a rip involves using specialized knowledge and skill to identify some type of amazing bargain, such as Russ did with the SGS 1967 SMS Kennedy.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
I can't understand or agree with that comment.
Free Trial
I agree with this- to me, a rip has nothing to do with the amount of value received for the money invested- it's just knowing that I would have gladly paid more money for the same coin....
<< <i>Pauljuno, as you continue to read and post on this forum you will quickly come to the realization that ethics for many people on the board is based strictly on what individual made the kill. In other words, if one of the members knowing ripped off an unknowing seller by paying 10 cents on the dollar then everybody cheers. If, one the other hand, some dealer pays 50 cents on the dollar to a seller then the membership wants to hang him. I have yet to see where the difference lies, but the membership assures me that there is one. >>
Another wild statement of misrepresentation. Please name some examples of what in the hell you're talking about.
Free Trial
To obtain a coin for less than it's open market value.
To sell a coin for more than it's open market value.
The percentage of value over/under market worth determines how GOOD of a Rip
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
Another wild statement of misrepresentation. Please name some examples of what in the hell you're talking about. >>
There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady".
Dealer vs granny = the knowledgable ripping off the ignorant (bad)
collector vs dealer = knowledgable ripping off the knowledgable (or should be).
Not a huge ethical difference there but there is a distinction.
<< <i>There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady". >>
It is specious to compare a collector cherrypicking a dealer to a dealer ripping off a little old lady. The dealer voluntarily stepped on to the numismatic battlefield and set himself up as a professional. The little old lady did not. Your argument is without merit.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady". >>
It is specious to compare a collector cherrypicking a dealer to a dealer ripping off a little old lady. The dealer voluntarily stepped on to the numismatic battlefield and set himself up as a professional. The little old lady did not. Your argument is without merit.
Russ, NCNE >>
And that little old lady voluntarily stepped into the shop without doing any research.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Another wild statement of misrepresentation. Please name some examples of what in the hell you're talking about. >>
There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady". >>
Bunk. Apples and oranges.
C'mon now, show us these "examples".
Free Trial
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There are several examples listed in this thread. If a dealer had "ripped" an unknowing seller who walked into his store with coins to sell in the same way that is being celebrated here people would be screaming for his gonads. If you don't believe me then search "little old lady". >>
It is specious to compare a collector cherrypicking a dealer to a dealer ripping off a little old lady. The dealer voluntarily stepped on to the numismatic battlefield and set himself up as a professional. The little old lady did not. Your argument is without merit.
Russ, NCNE >>
And that little old lady voluntarily stepped into the shop without doing any research. >>
Nope. She went to a professional for advice and a fair offer. Big difference.
Free Trial
<< <i>None of those facts makes it right, IMHO, Russ.
I can't understand or agree with that comment. >>
Let me try and further explain.
I have no problem with getting a good or great deal. That goes both ways for collectors and dealers. When I refer to rips being somewhat seemy is when someone is unfairly taken advantage of in the process. If a dealer missed a $3,000. coin and mistakenly put it in a ten buck bin, personally, I would think of it as stealing from him/her if it were me. On the other hand, if a dealer was selling me crap and I took his/her word that it was good, that would also be stealing in my opinion. These are the contexts in which I object to "rips".
Case in point, a neighbor a couple of years ago, was having his church's yard sale in his large front yard. I wasn't interested in buying but as a neighbor, I went over. Lo and behold, I discovered several outstanding classic commems (which I heavily collect) that someone had donated. They were priced between $2. and $10. bucks, if memory serves me. These were clearly MS65 coins by either of the top two standards. We are speaking of an eye appealingly toned: Hudson, Hawaiian, Isabella and about a dozen or so more. I could have picked up the whole lot for less than $100. Church sale or not, getting those coins for that total cost would have been, immoral, to me as a purchase. I told them what they had, helped them get them certified and advised them in the sale which brought them significant, big bucks.
Maybe I'm not as clear on the term "rip" as others here. That to me would have been a rip. "Rip" being short for ripoff.
Negotiating a 20-30 plus percent discount....ok, that to me would be a great deal but also a good rip. Ditto for selling something in the same manner.
However, using one's knowledge to just beat the bejeebers out of another, moneywise, to me....is just not ethically right. That's where "rip"off comes into play.
Please know and understand that I am not accusing anyone of anything here. I don't think there is a dishonest bone in any regular here. Far from it. I would buy, sight unseen from almost any regular here and I have done so from a couple in the past. I would hope that people would feel the same way about buying from me.
It a question, for me, of what constitutes a great deal as a buyer or seller versus what constitutes taking advantage of someone else.
Yes, we should have the full knowledge of what we buy or sell. I expect that of the big pros. Many of us, though, as collectors know specific areas and, occasionally, make mistakes even within them. I wouldn't want to take a fellow collector for a ride as a result of a situation such as that, nor would I want someone to do that to me.
Think of what I'm trying to say as "the numismatic Golden Rule".
I hope I've explained myself clearly enough so as to not have ruffled any feathers or left anyone feeling insulted. Please know that was never my intent and if anyone took anything I said in that manner, I apologize.
<< <i>.......................and to follow up on Russ' thought-----That's no better than the stereotypical used car dealer down the steeet with his corner car lot, is it?
i think the principal difference is that when we consider something a "Rip" it generally means that the buyer has some type of knowledge advantage over a seller who's asking a price for an item that he feels is reasonable. with the used car salesman as we typically understand them to be portrayed, they are effectively defrauding the buyer in some fashion by misrepresenting the car.
the two are in no way even close to the same thing. >>
Points well taken. I'm most concerned with one person, like anyone here....taking unfair and undue advantage of another person, like anyone here....or someone who knows little about coins. That's where I think the positive part of "rip" becomes the negative "rip"off.
<< <i>
<< <i>I
You think dealers from whom I buy proof sets where I get a rip are losing money? These guys are buying what comes through the door at back of bid and I've been known to pay as much 10x bid to get a set I want. I've gotten my share of rips ponying up strong premiums, but the dealers also made nice fat profits.
Russ, NCNE >>
Those would be win-wins for both people then Russ, IMHO. Perhaps it's my (mis)understanding (?) of the term "rip", that is fundamental to this discussion.
<< <i>I'm experiencing a real ethical dilemma here. I've just been following a thread on these boards where a dealer bought a coin from a collector that later turned out to be a counterfeit, in this case most of the responses have been that the dealer should get his money back as it was not the genuine artifact. Now in this thread we're talking about getting a great deal because the dealer was stupid enough to give a great deal out of ignorance as well. Seems either it should be a win-win, or a very nasty survival of the fittest attitude. Not sure which side I've decided to go with so far. >>
You're summing up a number of my thoughts and feelings on this topic.
-David
<< <i>Case in point, a neighbor a couple of years ago, was having his church's yard sale in his large front yard. I wasn't interested in buying but as a neighbor, I went over. Lo and behold, I discovered several outstanding classic commems (which I heavily collect) that someone had donated. They were priced between $2. and $10. bucks, if memory serves me. These were clearly MS65 coins by either of the top two standards. We are speaking of an eye appealingly toned: Hudson, Hawaiian, Isabella and about a dozen or so more. I could have picked up the whole lot for less than $100. >>
That is not a rip. At least not the way I define a rip. To my mind that situation would be no different than a dealer with a B&M store taking advantage of the newb who just inherited a collection.
A rip is when I do a deal with a knowledgeable seller and nail a score because he's either too lazy to do his market research, or doesn't really care about the specific area of coins that I'm buying.
For example, I once paid $50 for a 1964 proof set from a local dealer. That was five times Greysheet and was negotiated down from the $70 he started at. He wanted that kind of money because the Kennedy was a cameo. Now, I know damned well that he paid back of bid for the set because that's what all the dealers in this area do. What this dealer didn't know was that the cameo Kennedy was an Accented Hair. It graded PR68CAM, and I sold it for $1200.
Russ, NCNE
Knowledge is power. People who DUMP their dead husband's coins or ESTATE stuff... or dealers who don't know or collectors who don't... should have been a little smarter and spent a little more time researching WHY her husband spent more time with coins than doing "NORMAL" things or WHY some guy has all them NUMISMATIC books on VAMS, or whatever ... This is a very nice thread for teaching !!!
The rip isn't about ethics. It is a "TERM" used for obtaining something lower than what it would cost on the open market, or for selling something for way more than it is worth on the open market. It's what makes COINS fun !
Use knowledge and learn, don't hang the guy who's smart !
I treat others with respect. Sometimes I get ripped on purpose to see just how honest or dishonest others are. How else do we gain knowledge ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
1: "Granny" walking into a dealer and wanting to sell what her husband left her.... The dealer sees a rare date or variety but neverthelless offers FAR less than market value for the item. In this instance she is relying upon the expertise and integrity of the dealer to make a fair wholesale offer for the lot (or a coin)....
2: A collector views a DEALER'S stock, sees a rare variety amongst them and priced at far less than market value for the rare variety but a fair price for the comon variety, and purchases the coin at the dealer's quoted price...... The dealer knows what he paid for the item and has priced it at what he considers a fair price and with a markup that is acceptable to him (probably more, since he probably allows a little haggle room in the marked price)..........
Scenario one would be "Ripping Off" granny in the BAD NEGATIVE connotation of the term and would morally wrong and unethical.....
Scenario two would be a "RIP" in the "acceptable" and "positive" sense....
I will grant however, that if in scenario 1, the dealer does not notice the rare variety till LONG AFTER the deal is consumated (many dealers buy stock and don't get to sort though it for weeks or months sometimes), THAT situation provides for a grey area of what is ethical.... He may or may not know where a particular coin was acquired from and has no means of contacting the original seller.... However, if for example he buys several rolls of silver dollars that were stored in tubes as common dates would be, and subsequently discovers some of them to be rolls of, for example, common Carson CIty coins, then I believe he would be obligated to pay the difference to the original seller inasmuch as he was NEGLECTFUL, and did not study the lot properly and therefore did not place the proper value on the coins involved.
In scenario 2, if the dealer happened to show the collector a coin that he had but know little about, but that he knew the collector specialized in, then the collector (the ACKNOWLEDGED expert in this case) has the moral and ethical obligation placed upon him.....
The bottom line is that dealers are supposed to be the experts.... I realize that NO dealer can be expected to know everything about all coins... That's why there are specialists..... You would NOT go to a proctologist for brain surgery (LOL: I'm aware of the analogy, which is why I chose it)..... Just as there are different doctors for different specialties, there are different attorneys for different areas of the law......
If a doctor or lawyer can not provide you with the help you need, he/she will refer you to someone that can.... By the same logic a dealer, should not take advantage of the consumer that does not have his training...... If somone brings in Ancients and he knows nothing about the, he should refer the to a dealer who has knowledge of Ancients... He should NOT simply buy it at rock bottom prices and take his chances on them..... Conversely, if he does know about the coins being offered, and he he was approached as an expert (as is a doctor or lawyer), he is ethically (and of course morally) bound to make a fair and honest offer for the coins.....