1799 8 Reales with massive die crack

Nysoto · May 18, 2007 1:42AM

Found this at a local show, a neat coin with the chopmarks and die crack.

CIVITAS · May 18, 2007 1:49AM

That one looks familiar, did we sell you that one at PNNA?

Nice coin either way.

Nysoto · May 18, 2007 1:55AM

Yes, thank you very much!

TwoKopeiki · May 18, 2007 2:04AM

Nice piece - I wish there was a definitive listing of all the chopmark-to-moneyer/banker/merchant...

ColinCMR · May 18, 2007 6:47AM

cool! with a lot of clean chopmarks too

crito · May 18, 2007 11:46PM

Looks like a lamination, not a die crack, to me.

Nysoto · May 19, 2007 12:34AM

It is definately a heavy "stair step" die crack that extends to the neck, with a branch crack by the rim. I collect early US coins by die state, my favorites are coins with heavy die cracks or cuds. I also have some with lamination, from an image it can be difficult to tell the difference, I once bought a coin on eBay thinking it had a heavy die crack, but it was a lamination. These are all rare die states with heavy cracks:

TwoKopeiki · May 19, 2007 12:48AM

Nice cracks

ColonialCoinUnion · May 19, 2007 8:39AM

<< <i>Looks like a lamination, not a die crack, to me. >>

I vote for die crack.

aballein · May 19, 2007 3:03PM

i seen an 8 reales at a little flea market today. It didnt have a die crack but it did have some sweet looking chop marks. Im used to seeing chinese/japanese chops in coins but on this one it has what i believe to be a swastika. Does that make any sense to you guys? I know the swastika goes waaayyy back before hitler put his little spin on it but ive never seen a swastika chop mark before. The guy wants $40.00 for it, i may just go buy it( if i can hide it from the wife)

TwoKopeiki · May 20, 2007 2:35AM

abalein - you should inspect that 8 Reales closely. The swastika chopmark is often seen on counterfeits from Boston and the coin will usually have diagonal cuts along about half of the rim that damage the circle square design. The assumption of a fellow collector, specializing in these, is that the diagonals occurred during the placement of the edge design on the blank - some form of gripping device. The Boston group is also known to use numerous English alphabetic chops. Coins produced by them also have only one overlap (or misplaced overlaps) - so check the edge carefully.

"Boston" forgeries made between 1890 and 1930 for use by Merchants Trading with China. These are full weight silver struck coins made when silver prices fell to levels under 50 cents an ounce. The Chinese Merchants preferred Portrait 8Rs so the Boston merchants had jewelers make copies in full weight silver. They were often chop marked before they were sent to China. They are often treated as REAL by coin dealers because the silver content checks out perfectly.

Hope this helps,

~Roman

TwoKopeiki · May 20, 2007 2:41AM

Also, the "reverse swastika" chop is sometimes present on the new, low silver Chinese forgeries. You should be able to spot those relatively easily - they are lighter in weight (around 25 grams) and the surfaces have a greasy feel to it (perhaps zinc in composition?) These also have a single overlap in the edge design.

Remember: original portrait 8 Reales will always have two (or multiples of 2 if a coin popped-out of the edging machine) overlaps, exactly opposite of each other.

JRocco · May 20, 2007 6:05AM

Nice coin Nysoto,
This one drips character with that heavy crack and the chops are a bonus.
But I gotta admit that you got my blood flowing with that 3 leaf 1795/1795

aballein · May 20, 2007 1:00PM

Fascinating information TwoKopeiki...i know nothing at all about them...nothing....and i want to go back and check it out to see if it is indeed a fake, so here come the noob questions..... Are the diagonal marks usually prominent or does it take some magnification to see, and i honestly have no clue what you mean when you say "Coins produced by them also have only one overlap (or misplaced overlaps) - so check the edge carefully." What am i looking for exactly. I know these are noob questions but if i dont ask them i will never know the answers. Thanks for the info so far, and i look forward to reading your answer.

TwoKopeiki · May 20, 2007 1:54PM

Here's a description of the edging process taken from a post on coincommunity boards by Swamperbob - an extremely knowledgeable counterfeit / Early Mexican Republic collector (a lot of what I know on this subject came from reading his posts and conversing with him via e-mails) :

<< <i>
In a few previous posts I have referred to the subject of correct edging methods. Some time ago I made up a sketch of the process to explain it to a friend. I just found the sketch while cleaning out old pictures and thought it might help to explain what happened.

In the days of the open sided screw press (before 1836 in the US and before 1897 in Mexico) the edge design on a coin was applied in a separate step from the strike. The apparatus used to edge a coin blank - illustrated in "Hooknecks" by Hubbard and O'Harrow is straight forward. Two flat bar dies that both have the edge design are mounted parallel on the surface of the milling machine. One die is movable one is Fixed. The raw blank fits in between them. The movable die is cranked toward the fixed die squeezing the blank and imparting the design. Then the movable die is moved along parallel to the fixed die adding the design to the opposite sides of the blank at the same time. When the blank rolls 1/2 way around the whole thing has been edged and the pressure is released. The blank is a bit smaller in diameter and it has become a planchet with upset rims ready to strike.

The geometry of the apparatus means that what happens on one side has an effect on the opposite side. When getting to the end of the process - TWO OVERLAPS are created exactly opposite one another of the SAME length.

But if one side pops out of the edger - the other side shows the effect as well. If there is a clip on one side - the opposite side would not get edged as well. Think through what happens using a coin and two rulers - you should get the picture.

Here is the sketch. If I can find a copy of the actual apparatus in my files I will add it.

>>

MidLifeCrisis · May 20, 2007 2:20PM

Interesting thread. Thanks to Nysoto for the pictures and to TwoKopeiki for the information.

mrearlygold · May 21, 2007 1:03AM

Cool!

GDJMSP · May 21, 2007 1:57PM

<< <i>Also, the "reverse swastika" chop is sometimes present on the new, low silver Chinese forgeries. You should be able to spot those relatively easily - they are lighter in weight (around 25 grams) and the surfaces have a greasy feel to it (perhaps zinc in composition?) These also have a single overlap in the edge design.

Remember: original portrait 8 Reales will always have two (or multiples of 2 if a coin popped-out of the edging machine) overlaps, exactly opposite of each other. >>

I have to wonder, since the Mexican mints used the exact same apparatus to impart the edge design on the Pillar & Waves series and they were able to do so with only one overlap or no overlap at all - why would the Portrait series have to have two ?

1799 8 Reales with massive die crack

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