Options
Is the ANA still relevant for mainstream numismatics?
Zoins
Posts: 34,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is the ANA still a player in mainstream numismatics, or are they a dinosaur in danger of becoming extinct, or at least irrelevant?
0
Comments
EBAY Items
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZrlamir
If the organization could digitize much of its library and make it available to view at their website (possibly for an extra subscription charge), I think the ANA could create a *huge* new benefit which would make membership a much better value-added proposition. No waiting for the book to be available, no waiting for the book to be shipped, no two-way shipping charges...just click and read.
I know I'd love to be able to log in as a member and view the pages of some of the best and most historical numismatic scholarship out there.
<< <i>Going back to my thoughts in the poofed thread, I think it could be. But it needs to embrace the computer/Internet age.
If the organization could digitize much of its library and make it available to view at their website (possibly for an extra subscription charge), I think the ANA could create a *huge* new benefit which would make membership a much better value-added proposition. No waiting for the book to be available, no waiting for the book to be shipped, no two-way shipping charges...just click and read.
I know I'd love to be able to log in as a member and view the pages of some of the best and most historical numismatic scholarship out there. >>
That's a great idea!
Maybe you should run for the Board.....
BTW..how much are typical shipping to/from for books borrowed out of the library? Any idea?
members as well as all potential members in this country which means virtually all
the coin collectors. Too much of the resources is used to govern and manage the
organization. There are a lot of changes that need to be done to tweek the way
they respond to members and some major changes to provide more value for mem-
ber dues.
Dues aren't so high that they can't be raised iff necessary but they need substantially
more in the Numismatist. There should be an on-line version at a reduced cost and
possibly even associate memberships that are the magazine only. People should feel
that membership is priceless rather than overly expensive. With all the free writing and
contributions thay get it should be doable.
Too many people on a job can get in each other's way and impede progress.
They've made strides in recent years but haven't done much to raise the value of mem-
bership.
so it would probably have to be a massive volunteer effort.
Their library services are good and I have found them to be extremely responsive to research questions, even on weekends.
That the objects of the said corporation shall be to:
• advance the knowledge of numismatics along educational, historical and scientific lines in all its various branches;
• to assist in bringing about better cooperation between all persons interested in the coinage, circulation, classification, collection, sales, exhibition, use and preservation of all coins, bills and medals;
• to acquire and disseminate trustworthy information bearing upon these topics;
• to promote greater popular interest in the science of numismatology, and
• for the particular purpose of bringing the numismatists of America into closer relations with one another, and
• of promoting friendly feeling for one another through social intercourse, the interchange of ideas and discussions of mutual interests.
You have to ask “Are these good objectives for the ANA?” and if they are, then, “Does the ANA do these things and are they effective at doing them?”
Personally, I think the ANA has been trying to do these things, but could do much better in the future by targeting technology toward it’s assets. Making available to subscribers the long out-of-print (and now public domain) journals and books from the ANA collections is one opportunity (as mentioned above). Another is for the ANA to figure out how to better connect to the large population centers on the coasts from its offices in Colorado Springs. Most collectors never get to ANA HQ to use the museum and other benefits of membership. (Beautiful area, but a 100-mile radius and a 400-mile radius have nearly the same population.)
The ANA also has little impact on coinage legislation and no effective liaison with the US Mint. Much of this can be blamed on the ANA’s relative isolation. In 1920 the ANA was the leader in proposing the Peace dollar. But, headquartered in Ohio, they lost out to the Washington DC–based Commission of Fine Arts whose chairman could keep his ear to the ground and act when the opportunity presented itself. The same thing occurs now, just many times more frequently. If the ANA is to have a meaningful role in promoting coin collecting, it should be talking with members of congress and the Mint, negotiating for information and solutions to problems, cooperatively developing educational programs with the Mint and the Smithsonian, actively promoting “greater popular interest” in numismatics, and “advance the knowledge of numismatics along educational, historical and scientific lines.”
<< <i>I really like ziggy29's suggestion of digitizing books and making them available. A major issue, however, is the copyright. Perhaps digitizing public domain books and major auction catalogs would be a good start. However, I would make these items available "free" but on the members only page of the ANA website. >>
Yes, these would only be for members. Or they might be included with membership with a fee charged for non-members.
Yes, copyright needs to be worked on, but many professional organizations have done it. I'm a member of the ACM (Association for Computing Machinery), and they have over 1,000 technical e-books on their site for members. Additional books and journals are available to those members who pay for an annual subscription to them. Presumably those subscriptions pay the fees to the copyright holders to allow the organization to make this content available. Keep in mind that many of these works are out of print with no plans to print another run, so any revenue the copyright holder makes on those is gravy.
It's technically and legally feasible. The one question is, how much would it cost to grant the ANA the legal right to do this? What would that cost per member, or if it were on an additional subscription basis, how much per subscriber? Would it be affordable enough that a large number of members would do it? I know I'd pay at least $50 a year, maybe more, to have access to look at many numismatic references online.
As far as the effort to digitize them, it would obviously be a phased-in approach. You're not going to make a huge number of works available all at once; that's not practical. But a couple dozen more rolled out every quarter or so seems feasible. Smaller and less-capitalized organizations than the ANA have done these things.
The ANA runs the best educational event of the year, the ANA Summer Seminar.
The ANA's Coins in the Classroom program is doing more to create interest with non-collector kids than any other entity in the world.
The ANA has the best numismatic museum display in the nation.
And that's just the start.
How can you ask if they're "still relevant"?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>How can you ask if they're "still relevant"? >>
I know you are the ANA's unofficial spokesperson Andy, but it seems like everyone else in this thread is questioning their continued relevance.
As for the items you mentioned, the biggest and best show, the Summer Seminar and the Coins in the Classroom program, how many numismatists/collectors do they impact compared to the overall coin collecting population?
Granted, the answer is in the thousands, not in the millions, but no other coin club comes close.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>How can you ask if they're "still relevant"? >>
I know you are the ANA's unofficial spokesperson Andy, but it seems like everyone else in this thread is questioning their continued relevance. >>
I didn't respond earlier, because in all honesty, I thought you were asking a question born of sarcasm or ignorance.
Here's a Ladle to serve the soup you're stirring.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How can you ask if they're "still relevant"? >>
I know you are the ANA's unofficial spokesperson Andy, but it seems like everyone else in this thread is questioning their continued relevance. >>
I didn't respond earlier, because in all honesty, I thought you were asking a question born of sarcasm or ignorance.
Here's a Ladle to serve the soup you're stirring. >>
I like this one better
From RWB's posts, the ANA seems much less relevant than it has been in the past when it affected coins the Mint put into circulation. By not participating with Congress and the Mint, they are not affecting the new coins that touch millions of people the way groups like the Thomas Jefferson Foundation and Lemhi Shoshone Indians are. Do you disagree?
From Andy's post, it seems the ANA affects only a small percentage of collectors through its shows and educational programs. Remember the title of the post is in regards to "mainstream" numismatics.
I'm not sure to what extent the ANA gets involved with discussions about new issues. They could probably do more, and probably should. Of course, the very fact that we turn to the ANA when we want something like this to get done should tell us something about their "relevance".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>By not participating with Congress and the Mint, they are not affecting the new coins that touch millions of people.
I'm not sure to what extent the ANA gets involved with discussions about new issues. They could probably do more, and probably should. Of course, the very fact that we turn to the ANA when we want something like this to get done should tell us something about their "relevance". >>
Before the ANA commits to anything or even asks for ideas themselves, I think the better term is "potential relevance." I think people want the ANA to be relevant but whether it actually is, is a different story.
I hope the ANA can reach more people and make an impact on the issues collectors find important and pressing today. I hope they are taking in all the ideas posted here and I would love to hear responses to these suggestions from ANA governors and staff.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>I am still sad about their logo on eBay while eBay continues to allow SGS coins to be sold. >>
I agree. I think it would be useful for ANA members and collectors at large to hear someone from the ANA explain their position on that. Does the ANA endorsement of eBay's current policies help the hobby?
This question was asked nearly a year ago...
Is the ANA still relevant?
<< <i>This question was asked nearly a year ago...
Is the ANA still relevant? >>
And a new thread is in order to re-evaluate it, as well.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The ANA doesn't "endorse eBay's current policies". It merely provides its code of ethics to Ebay, which Ebay then asks its users to follow.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The ANA runs the biggest and best show of the year. >>
I think that many would put FUN and Baltimore ahead of any ANA show
<< <i>The ANA runs the best educational event of the year, the ANA Summer Seminar. >>
I do agree with this one.
<< <i>The ANA's Coins in the Classroom program is doing more to create interest with non-collector kids than any other entity in the world. >>
Well that really isn't saying much....
<< <i>The ANA has the best numismatic museum display in the nation. >>
I will concede this one since the National collection is not displayed in any real format.
<< <i>How can you ask if they're "still relevant"? >>
Now I ask this one quite a bit...
1. The focus the past few years has been on politics, not coins.
2. Their constant attempt to "sell" their name to the highest bidder.
3. Their shows have gone down hill. Anyone remember San Francisco???? Denver???
4. Their grading standards change with the wind
5. Their support of the members who were sued by a certian grading company was let's say poor.
6. They now wish to "approve" all the major TPG's as "official" for a FEE of course.
7. They backed down on approving the graders.
8. When they expelled dealers, no one else cared. These guys still run 2 and 4 page ads in the coin rags, so what does that say about who cares what the ANA thinks.
9. They purposely conceal their meetings and their results are not explained to any satisfaction.
10. They do nothing to get their name out in the mainstream public. Stop and ask anyone on the street if they know what the ANA is, and if you get any answer, it will be the nurses association.
If the ANA closed its doors today, it would not even make a footnote in the mainstream... Now I could go on and on, but would it make any difference?
4. Their grading standards change with the wind
The ANA hasn't had a grading service or published a grading guide in more than a decade. How would it even be possible for them to "change their standards"?
Edited to say that I see that there have been subsequent editions of the ANA grading guide. Have there actually been changes to the standards in that book? (Seems unlikely, but I have to ask.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Simply, they are absolutely relevant and critical to the further success and education of collectors and to the continued growth of the hobby.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>The ANA hasn't had a grading service or published a grading guide in more than a decade. How would it even be possible for them to "change their standards"? >>
Oh,, I am sorry... The Offical American Numismatic Association Grading Standards for United States Coins published in 2005 really has nothing to do the ANA. They only "rent" their name to it. I guess that I should ammend my statement of their grading standards changing to they allow their "official" name to be used by whomever wishes to create standards and place their name on it.
My mistake...
Maybe it's just me..but there appear to be 2 groups here.
Dealers..who say the ANA is critical for the "growth of the hobby".
Collectors-only..(not collector-dealers)...who say they've found it basically irrelavant to them.
Now...to play the devil's advocate..as a collector why do I want more collectors in the hobby? Why do
I want it to "grow"? I know why a dealer would want it to.....
Doesn't that just increase prices? If I'm a buy and hold (buy for enjoyment and not for investment) collector
seems like the lower the demand the lower the prices will be.
A city like Chicago would have been much better, popular tourist city, airplane connections to all over the world and no travel expenses
to speak of for ANA staff when they have a summer convention there. In retrospect more thought should have been given to the
location of the ANA headquarters but that is really all water over the dam, they are established in Colorado Springs now and I don't see
that changing.
<< <i>Now...to play the devil's advocate..as a collector why do I want more collectors in the hobby? Why do
I want it to "grow"? I know why a dealer would want it to..... >>
I've been saying this for a long time. People (sometimes collectors, too!) ask how we can get more people in the hobby. I think there are already more than enough people chasing the same stuff I want! Given the craziness of many coin prices in recent years and the continued strength of the market (at least for quality), how exactly does the hobby need more collectors?
Also, as I plan to be a net buyer over the next 2-3 decades, I'd love to see the value of my collection drop. It means I can buy more while I'm in the accumulation phase.
Sure, if I were going to be a net seller in the coming years, I'd want the irrational exuberance to carry on. I'd want more collectors and more demand for everything. But as that's likely not the case for me, I'd sooner see fewer collectors, not more...
Go collect stamps, everyone!
<< <i>Maybe it's just me..but there appear to be 2 groups here.
Dealers..who say the ANA is critical for the "growth of the hobby".
Collectors-only..(not collector-dealers)...who say they've found it basically irrelavant to them.
>>
I am dealer. You don't have to be a collector to know what is right. If there were enough people to decide that they would put the hobby before themselves, it would change. If you create a standard, stick to it. If you claim something is right and wrong, it should stay that way.
The ANA needs to step up and lead, or get out of the way.
<< <i>
<< <i>Does the ANA endorsement of eBay's current policies help the hobby? >>
The ANA doesn't "endorse eBay's current policies". It merely provides its code of ethics to Ebay, which Ebay then asks its users to follow. >>
While that may be technically true, how would the average eBay coin collector view the relationship between the ANA and eBay after seeing the ANA logo and name? I think a reasonable person would think the ANA's continued approval of eBay's use of their name and logo indicates either one of two things:
(a) the ANA feels eBay sellers are adequately following the ANA Code of Ethics
(b) the ANA doesn't care whether eBay sellers are following the ANA Code of Ethics but continues to let eBay use their name and logo in communication to collectors
Is either scenario comforting? Is there another scenario I'm missing?
In parallel, how about a slight change to:
Does ANA permission for eBay to use their name and logo help the hobby?
<< <i>The ANA is the most important organization in numismatics.
Simply, they are absolutely relevant and critical to the further success and education of collectors and to the continued growth of the hobby. >>
I'd like to believe you but while the ANA may be the "most important organization in numismatics," that doesn't preclude them from being irrelevant to "mainstream" numismatics and collectors. To expand on your statement, how is the ANA absolutely relevant and critical to educating mainstream collectors and growing the hobby? How many people do they affect? Are most collectors aware of the ANA's services and impact on the hobby?
However, it is hard to argue they are the most important organization in numismatics, even if they are a Federally chartered non-profit.
I'd argue that the US Mint is probably the most important organization in numismatics with their new coin programs, new coin finishes, Consumer Awareness page, coin club support materials, kids' website, etc. Does the ANA provide consumer awareness such as warning people of questionable marketing tactics or do they allow their name to be used in questionable manners? The ANA used to participate with the Mint and, through that process, reached millions of people.
Congress is probably the second most important organization in numismatics. The ANA also used to work with Congress which is driving new programs such as the SHQs and P$s with the help of private foundations and Indian nations.
The ANA is one of only two Federally chartered non-profits, the other being the American Red Cross. How does the ANA compare to the American Red Cross in terms of relevance to mainstream Americans?
<< <i>
<< <i>Now...to play the devil's advocate..as a collector why do I want more collectors in the hobby? Why do
I want it to "grow"? I know why a dealer would want it to..... >>
I've been saying this for a long time. People (sometimes collectors, too!) ask how we can get more people in the hobby. I think there are already more than enough people chasing the same stuff I want! Given the craziness of many coin prices in recent years and the continued strength of the market (at least for quality), how exactly does the hobby need more collectors?
Also, as I plan to be a net buyer over the next 2-3 decades, I'd love to see the value of my collection drop. It means I can buy more while I'm in the accumulation phase.
Sure, if I were going to be a net seller in the coming years, I'd want the irrational exuberance to carry on. I'd want more collectors and more demand for everything. But as that's likely not the case for me, I'd sooner see fewer collectors, not more...
Go collect stamps, everyone!
If you want the coin market to drop, is it better to have a ANA that is relevant or irrelevant to mainstream numismatics for that to happen?
Zoins - Please provide a link to a page displaying the ANA's logo so we can judge for ourselves if this looks in any way like some sort of endorsement. (I had trouble finding it today, although I've reviewed it in the past.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Never the less they can continue to improve their services and create new ones.
They should have been the source of considerably more on line education efforts and worked with some private, governmental or NGO to digitalize their core library ( see others suggestions above).
They missed an opportunity to be the on-line forum for collectors.
They coould strengthen the ethical base of Numismatic community.
I am glad that there is so much discourse on this forum about the ANA but wish we could not only focus on the politics but also hte substance.
I was going to put up a thread giving my reasons why we should make an effort to disband the ANA and get its charter revoked. Given all of the nonsense and buffoonery that has been going on during the last two years, maybe it is time to do just that.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>The ANA runs the biggest and best show of the year. >>
This is nice and affect mostly non-members and could easily be sponsered by somebody else.
<< <i>The ANA runs the best educational event of the year, the ANA Summer Seminar. >>
Not so easy to get to but a good program, but limited availablility for most people. Would be nice to have some of this online.
<< <i>The ANA's Coins in the Classroom program is doing more to create interest with non-collector kids than any other entity in the world. >>
Great outreach program, but what benefit to members?
<< <i>The ANA has the best numismatic museum display in the nation. >>
Again, not so easy to access for most.
My question is: Since much of the benefit of the ANA as shown above is to the masses and not to the rank and file, why should I join? There's not a lot of special benefit for members that's easy to access.
Nothing is essential in the world.
I respectively believe the ANA particularly through the summer seminar had a huge impact on my knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby.
The Selling Coins page says:
<< <i>eBay does not permit the sale of coins or paper money that are fraudulent or improperly described. Sellers who knowingly fail to disclose information about the authenticity of coins or paper money, alterations to coins or paper money, or other information that might have a material impact on the coin or paper money value may be reported to the American Numismatic Association (ANA). >>
While it is technically true that the sellers may be reported to the ANA, because the ANA really can't do anything about these sellers, is that providing a false sense of security?
The other place the ANA is mentioned, along with their logo is the "Code of Conduct" for Selling Coins & Paper Money on eBay. Items 3 and 4 of that list are:
<< <i>• Sellers agree not to knowingly handle or resell forgeries, unmarked copies, altered coins, or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.
• Sellers agree not to knowingly participate in any way in the advertisement, sale or trade of any numismatic material using any deceptive practices including, but not limited to, false or misleading claims of sales scarcity, value, condition or investment potential. >>
While it may be technically true that eBay worked with the ANA to create their own Seller Code of Conduct, does the "further disciplinary action by the ANA against its members" provide a false sense of security to buyers? Does the ANA logo give a sense of ANA approval for the code of conduct, and presumably its execution?
I'm sure everything eBay says is "technically" true but think about it this way. If this was not the ANA, but a Top 10 bank, would that bank allow a partner to use their name and logo in a similar situation given the potential controversy?
<< <i>I still don't think that the ANA is relevant to mainstream numismatics. The coin collecting world will go on if the ANA ceased to exist, advanced collectors probably use the ANA's resources more than most collectors, but they could survive without the organization. As for new collectors, the ANA does not actively seek new people to the hobby. >>
This is my conclusion from what people have said. Perhaps the ANA can continue but without the aura of representing mainstream American numismatics?
<< <i>I was going to put up a thread giving my reasons why we should make an effort to disband the ANA and get its charter revoked. Given all of the nonsense and buffoonery that has been going on during the last two years, maybe it is time to do just that. >>
Would it be beneficial if the ANA reorganized and changed their name to something that fits more in line with their more limited participation in numismatics today? I don't see any reason for the current organization to need a Federal charter.
<< <i>
I was going to put up a thread giving my reasons why we should make an effort to disband the ANA and get its charter revoked. Given all of the nonsense and buffoonery that has been going on during the last two years, maybe it is time to do just that. >>
Longacre,
Now is NOT the time to do this. I've been an ANA member since 1985 and there is a lot of good potential in the organization for our hobby. Unfortunately, the current board has messed things up. I would want to see what the composition of the new board is and what actions they take in 2007 to "right the ship" before I would throw in the towel. Let's hope all ANA members VOTE and vote responsibly. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I've found the ANA mentioned on two pages on the eBay site.
The Selling Coins page says:
<< <i>eBay does not permit the sale of coins or paper money that are fraudulent or improperly described. Sellers who knowingly fail to disclose information about the authenticity of coins or paper money, alterations to coins or paper money, or other information that might have a material impact on the coin or paper money value may be reported to the American Numismatic Association (ANA). >>
While it is technically true that the sellers may be reported to the ANA, because the ANA really can't do anything about these sellers, is that providing a false sense of security?
The other place the ANA is mentioned, along with their logo is the "Code of Conduct" for Selling Coins & Paper Money on eBay. Items 3 and 4 of that list are:
<< <i>• Sellers agree not to knowingly handle or resell forgeries, unmarked copies, altered coins, or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.
• Sellers agree not to knowingly participate in any way in the advertisement, sale or trade of any numismatic material using any deceptive practices including, but not limited to, false or misleading claims of sales scarcity, value, condition or investment potential. >>
While it may be technically true that eBay worked with the ANA to create their own Seller Code of Conduct, does the "further disciplinary action by the ANA against its members" provide a false sense of security to buyers? Does the ANA logo give a sense of ANA approval for the code of conduct, and presumably its execution?
I'm sure everything eBay says is "technically" true but think about it this way. If this was not the ANA, but a Top 10 bank, would that bank allow a partner to use their name and logo in a similar situation given the potential controversy? >>
Just look at the bids under the auspice of being condoned by the ANA.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>I've found the ANA mentioned on two pages on the eBay site.
The Selling Coins page says:eBay does not permit the sale of coins or paper money that are fraudulent or improperly described.
... may be reported to the American Numismatic Association (ANA).
...The other place the ANA is mentioned, along with their logo is the "Code of Conduct" for Selling Coins & Paper Money on eBay. Items 3 and 4 of that list are:
• Sellers agree not to knowingly handle or resell forgeries, unmarked copies, altered coins, or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such...
• Sellers agree not to knowingly participate in any way in the advertisement, sale or trade of any numismatic material using any deceptive practices including, but not limited to, false or misleading claims of sales scarcity, value, condition.
Just look at the bids under the auspice of being condoned by the ANA. >>
These rules make hyping a coin unlawful according to ebay's own wording. This is good news.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>My question is: Since much of the benefit of the ANA as shown above is to the masses and not to the rank and file, why should I join? There's not a lot of special benefit for members that's easy to access. >>
Agreed. ANA membership should be a no-brainer for people who live within reasonable driving distance of Colorado Springs. Unfortunately, too much of the value added by the organization depends on one's ability (both in terms of time and finances) to get there.
<< <i>
<< <i>My question is: Since much of the benefit of the ANA as shown above is to the masses and not to the rank and file, why should I join? There's not a lot of special benefit for members that's easy to access. >>
Agreed. ANA membership should be a no-brainer for people who live within reasonable driving distance of Colorado Springs. Unfortunately, too much of the value added by the organization depends on one's ability (both in terms of time and finances) to get there. >>
I've been to Denver, Boulder and Vail but not to Colorado Springs yet. I wouldn't mind if the ANA was based in the Washington DC area where more people visit and where they could have some influence in numismatics, being near the Mint and Congress.