Does everyone agree that a 1 grade difference......

DoubleEagle59 · May 8, 2007 1:23AM

Does everyone agree that a 1 grade difference when a coin is resubmitted to a TPG is acceptable but a 2 or more grading difference is totally unacceptable? And I'm assuming it has been resubmitted to the same TPG.

This is how I personally feel.

Newcomp103 · May 8, 2007 1:30AM

Depends on the coin....1 grade difference in certain series can be hundreds or even thousands of dollars difference...but if it is a coin that does not meet these rules, I would say 1 point is acceptable.

ziggy29 · May 8, 2007 1:31AM

How about the fact that some coins could look identical but regularly receive vastly different grades because one's a condition rarity and the other isn't?

AUandAG · May 8, 2007 1:33AM

DE59, can't tell you how I feel on that subject. I've never been a crackout
artist and resubmitted the same coin. I've thought about doing that but
then the coins I own are not rare enough to justify spending more grading
fees. If I really could grade worth a damn (I've been collecting over 50 years)
I'd probably do just that. I just begin to think I know what I'm doing and then
BAM! I get shot down by the almighty graders at PCGS. Usually I understand
how they arrived at the grade, but not always.
bob

dorkkarl · May 8, 2007 2:45AM

<< Does everyone agree that a 1 grade difference when a coin is resubmitted to a TPG is acceptable >>

when 1 pt coin mean $100,000, i don't know how the he11 you can think a 1 grade difference is acceptable! if a plastic co can't grade CONSISTENTLY, DON'T USE 'EM!

K S

speety · May 8, 2007 6:51AM

For the most part, however i can see where some coins grade AU-58 one time and MS-63 the next. The slight rub accounts for this 5 point difference and in the 10 seconds (?) spent on grading each coin, it's understandable how slight rub may be missed.

Edit: I can't subtract

Aegis3 · May 8, 2007 7:29AM

<< Does everyone agree that a 1 grade difference when a coin is resubmitted to a TPG is acceptable but a 2 or more grading difference is totally unacceptable? And I'm assuming it has been resubmitted to the same TPG.

This is how I personally feel. >>

I think you're giving way to much weight to the numbers.

ziggy29 · May 8, 2007 7:34AM

<< I think you're giving way to much weight to the numbers. >>

Unfortunately, when an MS-65 can be 3-5x (or more) the value of a 64, the entire market does, too.

Barry · May 8, 2007 7:47AM

One grade point is within the limits of error. Anyone who tells you otherwise probably also pays a premium for toning.

As stated in the AT/NT thread, PT Barnum

tahoe98 · May 9, 2007 5:42AM

ahh................subjectivity..............forever!

coinlieutenant · May 9, 2007 6:24AM

Everyone agrees that grading is subjective...I think that we can all agree on that. That being said, the decision on whether or not to use the TPG's should be based on what degree of consistency they grade.

For the money, I want the TPG's to be consistent/accurate within one half of a rung on the grading ladder. I dont say a point because in the circ grades there arent one point increments.

In other words, if you sent it in 100 times, the services should, for the money we pay, never call something other than two grades. Since we have no baseline what the coin REALLY is since grading is subjective, consistency is the only measure of accuracy. If they are accurate within one half of a grade, then a coin could only grade two grades on the grading scale.

For example, a coin is graded 100 times. It comes back 70 times as a 64 and 30 times as a 65. This would represent, IMO, a consistency that is acceptable for the money we pay for a service. 100 samples represents a statistically significant sample size. The coin is, statistically, a 64.8. One half point up or down, brings it to a 64.3 or a 65.3. It should NEVER be a 63...nor should it EVER be a 66.

Anything less than one half a point, shows little skill regarding the numerical grading of coins.

That obviously is not happening with large swings in grades, bodybags etc.

Myqqy · May 9, 2007 10:37AM

This is how I personally feel.

Apparently, many collectors and dealers don't share your sentiment, as tpg's don't offer that type of 1 grade difference consistency- and they continue to make tons of money on submissions and resubmissions. I guess numismatists are ok with significant inconsistency...

roadrunner · May 9, 2007 10:52AM

A 1 pt swing in many coins is a price doubling. And to be off that much consistently is unacceptable.....which is somewhat where we are today. The grading services were once 80-90% repeatable on the grades. Today that number imo is more like 50-70%, yet there are some experts who feel the service are 95% on the money. Now if that were true would not be resubmitting all that many coins and grade disputes would be nearly non-existant, not to mention cracker dealers would be mostly toast with only a 5% error rate.

I've had very few 2 pt swings on type coins from either major TPG. But betw the two they have sometimes varied by 3 pts with NGC usually being the higher in those cases. I did have a seated half once come back 2 pts different from the same TPG on successive submissions (65 and 67). That should never have happened.

roadrunner

ziggy29 · May 9, 2007 11:02AM

<< A 1 pt swing in many coins is a price doubling. And to be off that much consistently is unacceptable.....which is somewhat where we are today. The grading services were once 80-90% repeatable on the grades. Today that number imo is more like 50-70%... >>

The bottom line is that today, more so than when they were '80-90%' repeatable, the TPG is like the crack dealer and we are the addicts. They have the hobby, the coin market and its economics firmly in their grip now, so they can pretty much do anything they want, including flogging us and draining our wallets, and all we say is "thank you, may I please have another?"

TPGs were an almost unqualified positive in the coin market until their marketing machine convinced the coin market that everything had to be slabbed, and that small differences (if any) in quality still matter BIG for registry purposes...and we eat it up like lemmings going to the slaughter. These days anything they do is seen as a "must" by the coin market for BIG BUCKS! These days they have introduced enough negatives that the positives barely outweigh them, and other than authentication (and encapsulation for protection) I think they'll be a net negative to the hobby within a decade.

Sorry if that's an offensive analogy to some of you, but that's how it feels to me today. Now that the TPGs control the coin market, we'll do anything -- anything! -- and pay any amount of money to get our coin in the right slab at the right grade...and every now and then to keep us playing they throw in a bone once in a while.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · May 9, 2007 11:54AM

I've seen commem halves go from 63 to 67

everyone makes mistakes, and as long as the coin is properly graded is its new holder than I believe it is acceptable

sonoranmonsoon · May 9, 2007 9:40PM

Yes it is acceptable, if the coin was graded wrong. I have had PCGS upgrade their own slabs 2 points on occassion. I certainly had no problem accepting that.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 9, 2007 10:25PM

I disagree.... SGS could hardly upgrade theirs. Since they are all perfect 70s

coinlieutenant · May 10, 2007 6:09AM

This one is still around.

Legitimate discussion here Carol...no need to poof it.

roadrunner · May 10, 2007 7:35AM

The straw that broke the camel's back was REGISTRY fever. Too much competition over the darn numbers.

roadrunner

ziggy29 · May 10, 2007 7:38AM

<< The straw that broke the camel's back was REGISTRY fever. Too much competition over the darn numbers. >>

Indeed. I think this is the main reason why a 68 can cost 10x what a very nice 67 would cost despite sometimes needing a microscope to tell the difference. Which, in turn, fuels resubmissions and feeds the cash cow.

Does everyone agree that a 1 grade difference......

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