You will NEVER see Sharpton or Jackon in Houston...EVER! They have NO interest in having the world see what's goin on there. It would indicate weakness and besides, if you watch that UTUBE clip, which I unfortunately did, you'd see why they have no interest in heading down south to Houston. They would probably be killed and certainly would not want to help those that need the most help. They'd much rather stalk corporations and threaten them...that's where the headlines are and the money is.
Sorry folks. I did NOT mean to hijack this thread.....but I would urge everyone to cut and paste monsterman's link and view it. Then go home and hug your kids, your wife and give thanks to the Lord for what you have.
P. S. DO NOT VIEW THAT UTUBE LINK IN THE OFFICE OR WHERE OTHERS MAY HEAR THE AUDIO PORTION!!! DO NOT VIEW IT AROUND YOUR KIDS!! Foul language abounds. Consider it fair warning....but I'd still urge you to watch it.
Wow, I have known you for years and we never talked politics Mike
If you are a collector who loves commems, not a flipper /crack-out genius, buy commems while the prices are still depressed. The "herd" never does well, buying when the market is frenzied and selling later into a depressed market .
mike.....you know the score and its not pretty...nuff said
doc
you are a rat holer..lol...and im know your hole is filled with monsters...one of these days we are going to have to play show and tell
>>>>>>>>>grant star
...while i am digitally challenged i think i can show this one....it is from the john sinnock estate...being the chief minter he did make a few for himself from time to time...lol....it has obvious concave and convex die polishing lines on it where as both the planchet and the die were polished pre striking and an obviuosly a specially made coin...he also turned up the pressure and the strike is unreal.....btw there is a note on the door knocker of the grant that can only be read on this coin....it says...." gone fishing...back in 3 hours"
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
while i have seen a few of yours...like the texas arnold flew to cincy to pick up for you....i cant wait to see the rest
monsterman
ps....mom a smile on your face is enough pay....always like to promote commems so tell me what city are you in or your next show and i will bring some for display in somebodys case...they like the show stopper coins as it good for traffic
pss....will someone give mike printz a lesson in cut n paste....lol
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
hated to lose bob...he had the eye to be great in a few more years...oh well ive seen a lot of them come and go....which has allowed a second shot on coins i missed before
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Hoping to get back to the topic of classic commems. I've been following this market superficially for a while as I tend to be a value investor in everything. What has kept me away is the lack of any signs of increased interest (ie value can stay value for a long time). So a couple questions for the experts: 1)What catalyst will increase interest in this market? 2)I understand how these coins could outperform other coins in a bear market (ie they don't drop as fast because they have less to fall), but what causes them to go up on their own without a real catalyst? 3)When Lincoln pennies were cheap a bunch of years ago, there were two strategies: 1)Buy the best at a premium to a cheap price, 2)Buy alot of high end, but lower graded coins. It seems as if both strategies have worked well as the market rerated. Obviously, the best went up 10 times but the next category down went up 5 times. Could the same thing happen here? 4)Is buying the best in this market purchasing really beautifully toned coins or the highest graded, low pop coins? 5)Is it easy to determine which of the beautfiully toned coins have become that way naturally or artificially? Are they mostly artifical and does that mean alots more of them can be created, reducing the value of the current toned coins? 6)If the naturally beautiful toned coins are rare, then why are the premiums they sell at out of line? 7)The upcoming collection at Heritage seems quite variable in quality (not as consistently good in each coin). Am I wrong? If I am right, is that because it is very difficult to put together a really attractive, consistent collection across all of these coins as is probably the case with lincolns (ie some lincolns were born ugly)? Thanks for the help.
<< <i>Hoping to get back to the topic of classic commems. I've been following this market superficially for a while as I tend to be a value investor in everything. What has kept me away is the lack of any signs of increased interest (ie value can stay value for a long time). So a couple questions for the experts: 1)What catalyst will increase interest in this market?
tc says... Time for one. There was such a hit from the speculation days in the 80s that the recovery is still not there. It will never, IMHO, return to those days so a number of folks may be holding out (stuck) and just not taking the hit they are gong to, eventually, do. More importantly, I think as people finish up the state quarters, some who become hooked as collectors will be looking for something older to get into. These are the logical extension. Also, therei is, I think, a fair amoun of poorly graded crap in this segment. If you weed through that and talk to the dealers who are active in the commem market, they will tell you that business is quite good, not bad. The competition for the better coins is very tough.
Without ego, I am one of the better "second level" collectors. I can't compete with the Scher's and Bingham's of the world, dollarwise for the rock solid, top of the line, toned monsters. However, I'm at that next rung of the ladder and their castoffs make a very nice and profitable collection. My typeset is complete, but I'm always looking for upgrades, either higher grade or within grade but a better coin. At a recent show, one of the top auction houses "VP for auctions" (so to speak) eagerly shuffled over to me because he had heard that I had a typeset that was put together (mostly) from one of nations's top dealers and had some of the two or three big boys better pieces that they held for years before discarding any of them for the one elusive top coin.
In short, the market is there for the better, top end coins with attractive color. The Greysheet means little for these coins. In fact, it means nothing.
2)I understand how these coins could outperform other coins in a bear market (ie they don't drop as fast because they have less to fall), but what causes them to go up on their own without a real catalyst?
tcsays....it's just my two cents but if you get a couple of dealers who decide to buy a couple of series in MS "X" in any given period, about two weeks later, that will be reflected in the Greysheet. Ditto if any of the top 25 collectors that Gregg Bingham referred in a post above, gets active for a couple of higher end coins (MS 65 through MS68), eventualy in a few weeks, the plus signs will be on the Greysheet. Personally, I think I've seen it myself when I've bought a couple of coins and within 2-3 weeks, there's a plus sign on the weekly sheet.
Right now, if I were just looking to build a "for profit only set", based on the Greysheet and what ads etc. look like to me, I'd say there is a growing hot market for slightly above average to above average MS 63s. I'm thinking smarter dealers are putting them aside because they are reasonably priced and once a collector gets hooked at MS63, they will eventually trade up for the 65s-68s with color where the real dollars are and that should be around the time that the better PQ specimens in those grades might slowly start coming to market as old timers begin to sell off their coins.
3)When Lincoln pennies were cheap a bunch of years ago, there were two strategies: 1)Buy the best at a premium to a cheap price, 2)Buy alot of high end, but lower graded coins. It seems as if both strategies have worked well as the market rerated. Obviously, the best went up 10 times but the next category down went up 5 times. Could the same thing happen here?
tc says...sure, look what I just said above re MS63s. OTOH, there will always be a monster market for monster classic silver commems and that market, I believe will dwarf the MS63 rate of return. Case in point, try finding an MS67 PCGS Delaware, toned or not, on the market. Try and find a PCGS MS68 Oregon (arguably the best designed coin in our history) that is nicely toned and on the market. Try and find a PCGS MS 65 Hawaiian that has any color beside blah green. Ditto a toned Lexington in PCGS 66 or higher. They are all there but they are owned by a small group of collectors who truly are holding them like one owns a Picasso. They don't come out too often to the market. When they do, you better know the dealer...or better yet, forget the dealer and his/her vig.....know the collector and make the deal with them and no middle man.
4)Is buying the best in this market purchasing really beautifully toned coins or the highest graded, low pop coins?
tc says...it could be both but the highest graded might just be plastic mistakes. The really beautiful toned ones will always have a market. Case in point, I bought a New Rochelle in PCGS MS 66 for what some would call "semi-stupid" money. However, you can almost see yourself in the luster and both sides have circles of gold and other colors. I took it to one of the prominent "get a grading for free tables" at a show. One of the nation's top graders took it out from his scope, put on his glasses, took off his glasses, took it to another light...and came back to me to tell me what a great coin I had. Was it worth the semi-stupid money (about 50 percent over ask)? I have no doubt about it.
On rarities, I've made it a game for myself in my typeset that I go for the lowest pop anywhere there is an option. So....it's a Grant with Star for me, a 2x2 and 2x4, etc. It's just a way that I like to seperate myself from the rest. Mr. Bingham will attest that I may just own the best (or second best) toned Grant with Star in PCGS MS65 that's around. Having a very nicely toned coin that also has a low pop is a very nice combination.
My one gripe with PCGS....I don't play the registry game although I am in it. I wish that they would score the typeset allowing for the rarities like NGC does. When a plain old Grant in 67 gets a bigger weight than a GWS in 65......that just bugs me. :-)
5)Is it easy to determine which of the beautfiully toned coins have become that way naturally or artificially? Are they mostly artifical and does that mean alots more of them can be created, reducing the value of the current toned coins?
tc says...Personally, I think it is pretty tough to fool the major grading services on classic commems being AT. I know some will disagree and that's fine as well as healthy. Myself, the only ones I shy from are rattlers. Let's be realistic....they get a few more bucks because people smell upgrades. However, rattlers have been around since slabbing started. If they haven't been broken out yet, what's the real chance they will get the upgrade. Yet, because of how the rattlers were made, we've all heard the rumors about how they can be assisted with toning. I don't know about that but my senses go off now when I see a rattler. Generally, I pass on them. Anything not in a rattler holder (speaking about PCGS only), I'll take as legit over 99 plus percent of the time in terms of toning re classic commems.
6)If the naturally beautiful toned coins are rare, then why are the premiums they sell at out of line?
tc says...because they are rare. It's simple supply and demand. They aren't out of line unless you consider anythng outside of generic buy/see Greysheet to be out of line.
7)The upcoming collection at Heritage seems quite variable in quality (not as consistently good in each coin). Am I wrong? If I am right, is that because it is very difficult to put together a really attractive, consistent collection across all of these coins as is probably the case with lincolns (ie some lincolns were born ugly)?
tc says.....Who can really tell from pictures? That's a good reason for having a dealer who will be there take a look for you on anything that catches your eye. I don't know squat about Lincolns (no offense, they don't do it for me..although if they do for you or anyone else, terrific and I hope you get every one that you want).
It's not tough to put together a nice classic commem set, especially if you want MS63 through MS65, although you should read the book(s) first before dropping the bucks on the more expensive MS65 issues like a Lafayette or Hawaiian. If you're looking to move into the "rarified air" of the top five guys, bring your checkbook and your firstborn. If you are happy being in the almost as select second tier, make good friends with the 3-5 dealers who get the best of the best and the trade-ins from the top 5 guys.
Commems are a lifetime passion for me. I started at my uncle's knee almost fifty years ago. Along the way, I've gotten better at them and traded up/improved my collection all the time. Unless truly bad times occur, my collection is going nowhere for a long time. Now, when I upgrade, I either get a great trade-in deal or I have a dealer or two who are only too happy to see me bring something over to them. I used to have a couple of folks who wanted my discards, as well, but college tuitions and babies have, temporarily, removed them from the fun of collectiing. That's ok, eventually they will return.
I hope this helps to answer some of your questions. I don't pretend to have all the answers and there are a lot smarter guys here on commems than me (Scher, Monsterman etc.). However, this series will, I believe, not just pick up but rocket up...within the next 3-5 years for the good coins. They don't have to be monsters either (although that's where the biggest money will always be). If you get the top 25 percent of the commens within the grade you desire to collect, when your time to sell arrives, I think you will be very pleased.
Please feel fee to ask any other questions you may have, either here or via PM.
<< <i>I think people should not buy these coins..they seem way overpriced.. especially high end commems...stay away from em..at least for a while... Bruce Scher >>
I'm sure you include yourself in that, Bruce? :
Seriously though, if you have any discards due to upgrades that you might want to free from your grip, PM me.
<< <i>I've said it before, and I'll say it again...if these were any other coins with these mintage figures they would be going for Moon money. Nowhere else would you be able to purchase a coin with a mintage of under 5,000 for a hundred bucks or so.
<< <i>I've said it before, and I'll say it again...if these were any other coins with these mintage figures they would be going for Moon money. Nowhere else would you be able to purchase a coin with a mintage of under 5,000 for a hundred bucks or so. >>
Actually, there are other coins that have that characteristic, darkside coins. Can some classic commems and world coins be considered to be in a "penalty box" with respect to mainstream US coin collectors?
<< <i>>>> Can some classic commems and world coins be considered to be in a "penalty box" with respect to mainstream US coin collectors
for commems....absolutely....for white middle graded coins....but for monsters...there is always a market and those in line will always buy them
monsterman >>
truer words were never spoken, IMHO.
I'd only add, in addition to monsters...nicely toned, but not monster, commems will also always have a solid market. It's the dipped, white, traditional...middle of the road classic commem from the heydays of when bright white ruled, that I don't see ever coming back and, in effect, largely holding the market back now.
<< <i>I think people should not buy these coins..they seem way overpriced.. especially high end commems...stay away from em..at least for a while... Bruce Scher >>
You wouldn't happen to have any bids in a certain auction, now would you Bruce?
>>>nicely toned, but not monster, commems will also always have a solid market
tc ...i did miss speak....nicely toned coins also will always be sought after...in fact i always buy them too
one more thing....i miss spoke again ...wowser bright white coins wil also be sought after too...i own a few headlight californias with luster off the chart and some texas and boones
not to mention
about 50 white out of this world pl s....some rare ones too like san diego..and w/c
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
From my perusal of the Heritage auction, lots of unsold coins, and many of the coins that Carey purchased recently resold for less in this auction....the Cincinn PCGS66 with beautiful color is an example. A few registry type coins bucked the trend, the PCGS66 Sesqui and PCGS68 Boone. I was the underbidder on several dozen coins after placing low-ball bids that I thought had no chance, suggesting that there might be very few people hunting for these coins right now.
Comments
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Where is Marvin Zindler when you need him? Can you post some more of yours coins?
Sid Gilman
You will NEVER see Sharpton or Jackon in Houston...EVER! They have NO interest in having the world see what's goin on there. It would indicate weakness and besides, if you watch that UTUBE clip, which I unfortunately did, you'd see why they have no interest in heading down south to Houston. They would probably be killed and certainly would not want to help those that need the most help. They'd much rather stalk corporations and threaten them...that's where the headlines are and the money is.
Sorry folks. I did NOT mean to hijack this thread.....but I would urge everyone to cut and paste monsterman's link and view it. Then go home and hug your kids, your wife and give thanks to the Lord for what you have.
P. S. DO NOT VIEW THAT UTUBE LINK IN THE OFFICE OR WHERE OTHERS MAY HEAR THE AUDIO PORTION!!! DO NOT VIEW IT AROUND YOUR KIDS!! Foul language abounds. Consider it fair warning....but I'd still urge you to watch it.
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
If you are a collector who loves commems, not a flipper /crack-out genius, buy commems while the prices are still depressed. The "herd" never does well, buying when the market is frenzied and selling later into a depressed market .
Commems to lighten up Friday afternoon:
Commems and Early Type
doc
you are a rat holer..lol...and im know your hole is filled with monsters...one of these days we are going to have to play show and tell
>>>>>>>>>grant star
...while i am digitally challenged i think i can show this one....it is from the john sinnock estate...being the chief minter he did make a few for himself from time to time...lol....it has obvious concave and convex die polishing lines on it where as both the planchet and the die were polished pre striking and an obviuosly a specially made coin...he also turned up the pressure and the strike is unreal.....btw there is a note on the door knocker of the grant that can only be read on this coin....it says...." gone fishing...back in 3 hours"
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
You NEED help posting pics!!
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
This aint a monster like yours, but next level below (68*)?
Thanks for your incite on the series and sharing the pic's!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=583924
my 26-s ...now in a ngc 68* has headlight luster but even coin facts cant do it like mike....it is also a avatar here i some use
http://www.coinfacts.com/commemoratives/half_dollar_commems/oregon_trail.htm
ark
http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/CoinDetail.aspx?PeopleCoinID=17136&PeopleSetID=1648
bay bridge...cant see the reds and blues though
http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/CoinDetail.aspx?PeopleCoinID=17137&PeopleSetID=1648
grant plain...a little better and a definte coin woody
http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/CoinDetail.aspx?PeopleCoinID=17148&PeopleSetID=1648
on fire lynchburg
http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/CoinDetail.aspx?PeopleCoinID=17148&PeopleSetID=1648
new rochell i bought at 2 am while others were sleeping..thanks hnai for doing it at 2 am
http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/CoinDetail.aspx?PeopleCoinID=17158&PeopleSetID=1648
coin woody stonemountain..and a no brainer 69..it too is on fire and rips luster u cant see on my polaroid...thanks ratman
http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/CoinDetail.aspx?PeopleCoinID=17168&PeopleSetID=1648
had a better day with the vancouver
http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/CoinDetail.aspx?PeopleCoinID=17170&PeopleSetID=1648
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
What was that saying you told me your old football coach said?
"Son, I only know football, that's all I know.
If my car breaks down on the side of the road and I open the hood, there better be a bunch of footballs under that hood or I'm in trouble."
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
Commems and Early Type
while i have seen a few of yours...like the texas arnold flew to cincy to pick up for you....i cant wait to see the rest
monsterman
ps....mom a smile on your face is enough pay....always like to promote commems so tell me what city are you in or your next show and i will bring some for display in somebodys case...they like the show stopper coins as it good for traffic
pss....will someone give mike printz a lesson in cut n paste....lol
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Amazing Set
you got it....fun 08 it is
c u there
monsterman
ps...sheps table...we will chat before for timing
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Rainbow Stars
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Rainbow Stars
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
1)What catalyst will increase interest in this market?
2)I understand how these coins could outperform other coins in a bear market (ie they don't drop as fast because they have less to fall), but what causes them to go up on their own without a real catalyst?
3)When Lincoln pennies were cheap a bunch of years ago, there were two strategies: 1)Buy the best at a premium to a cheap price, 2)Buy alot of high end, but lower graded coins. It seems as if both strategies have worked well as the market rerated. Obviously, the best went up 10 times but the next category down went up 5 times. Could the same thing happen here?
4)Is buying the best in this market purchasing really beautifully toned coins or the highest graded, low pop coins?
5)Is it easy to determine which of the beautfiully toned coins have become that way naturally or artificially? Are they mostly artifical and does that mean alots more of them can be created, reducing the value of the current toned coins?
6)If the naturally beautiful toned coins are rare, then why are the premiums they sell at out of line?
7)The upcoming collection at Heritage seems quite variable in quality (not as consistently good in each coin). Am I wrong? If I am right, is that because it is very difficult to put together a really attractive, consistent collection across all of these coins as is probably the case with lincolns (ie some lincolns were born ugly)?
Thanks for the help.
<< <i>Hoping to get back to the topic of classic commems. I've been following this market superficially for a while as I tend to be a value investor in everything. What has kept me away is the lack of any signs of increased interest (ie value can stay value for a long time). So a couple questions for the experts:
1)What catalyst will increase interest in this market?
tc says... Time for one. There was such a hit from the speculation days in the 80s that the recovery is still not there. It will never, IMHO, return to those days so a number of folks may be holding out (stuck) and just not taking the hit they are gong to, eventually, do. More importantly, I think as people finish up the state quarters, some who become hooked as collectors will be looking for something older to get into. These are the logical extension. Also, therei is, I think, a fair amoun of poorly graded crap in this segment. If you weed through that and talk to the dealers who are active in the commem market, they will tell you that business is quite good, not bad. The competition for the better coins is very tough.
Without ego, I am one of the better "second level" collectors. I can't compete with the Scher's and Bingham's of the world, dollarwise for the rock solid, top of the line, toned monsters. However, I'm at that next rung of the ladder and their castoffs make a very nice and profitable collection. My typeset is complete, but I'm always looking for upgrades, either higher grade or within grade but a better coin. At a recent show, one of the top auction houses "VP for auctions" (so to speak) eagerly shuffled over to me because he had heard that I had a typeset that was put together (mostly) from one of nations's top dealers and had some of the two or three big boys better pieces that they held for years before discarding any of them for the one elusive top coin.
In short, the market is there for the better, top end coins with attractive color. The Greysheet means little for these coins. In fact, it means nothing.
2)I understand how these coins could outperform other coins in a bear market (ie they don't drop as fast because they have less to fall), but what causes them to go up on their own without a real catalyst?
tcsays....it's just my two cents but if you get a couple of dealers who decide to buy a couple of series in MS "X" in any given period, about two weeks later, that will be reflected in the Greysheet. Ditto if any of the top 25 collectors that Gregg Bingham referred in a post above, gets active for a couple of higher end coins (MS 65 through MS68), eventualy in a few weeks, the plus signs will be on the Greysheet. Personally, I think I've seen it myself when I've bought a couple of coins and within 2-3 weeks, there's a plus sign on the weekly sheet.
Right now, if I were just looking to build a "for profit only set", based on the Greysheet and what ads etc. look like to me, I'd say there is a growing hot market for slightly above average to above average MS 63s. I'm thinking smarter dealers are putting them aside because they are reasonably priced and once a collector gets hooked at MS63, they will eventually trade up for the 65s-68s with color where the real dollars are and that should be around the time that the better PQ specimens in those grades might slowly start coming to market as old timers begin to sell off their coins.
3)When Lincoln pennies were cheap a bunch of years ago, there were two strategies: 1)Buy the best at a premium to a cheap price, 2)Buy alot of high end, but lower graded coins. It seems as if both strategies have worked well as the market rerated. Obviously, the best went up 10 times but the next category down went up 5 times. Could the same thing happen here?
tc says...sure, look what I just said above re MS63s. OTOH, there will always be a monster market for monster classic silver commems and that market, I believe will dwarf the MS63 rate of return. Case in point, try finding an MS67 PCGS Delaware, toned or not, on the market. Try and find a PCGS MS68 Oregon (arguably the best designed coin in our history) that is nicely toned and on the market. Try and find a PCGS MS 65 Hawaiian that has any color beside blah green. Ditto a toned Lexington in PCGS 66 or higher. They are all there but they are owned by a small group of collectors who truly are holding them like one owns a Picasso. They don't come out too often to the market. When they do, you better know the dealer...or better yet, forget the dealer and his/her vig.....know the collector and make the deal with them and no middle man.
4)Is buying the best in this market purchasing really beautifully toned coins or the highest graded, low pop coins?
tc says...it could be both but the highest graded might just be plastic mistakes. The really beautiful toned ones will always have a market.
Case in point, I bought a New Rochelle in PCGS MS 66 for what some would call "semi-stupid" money. However, you can almost see yourself in the luster and both sides have circles of gold and other colors. I took it to one of the prominent "get a grading for free tables" at a show. One of the nation's top graders took it out from his scope, put on his glasses, took off his glasses, took it to another light...and came back to me to tell me what a great coin I had. Was it worth the semi-stupid money (about 50 percent over ask)? I have no doubt about it.
On rarities, I've made it a game for myself in my typeset that I go for the lowest pop anywhere there is an option. So....it's a Grant with Star for me, a 2x2 and 2x4, etc. It's just a way that I like to seperate myself from the rest. Mr. Bingham will attest that I may just own the best (or second best) toned Grant with Star in PCGS MS65 that's around. Having a very nicely toned coin that also has a low pop is a very nice combination.
My one gripe with PCGS....I don't play the registry game although I am in it. I wish that they would score the typeset allowing for the rarities like NGC does. When a plain old Grant in 67 gets a bigger weight than a GWS in 65......that just bugs me. :-)
5)Is it easy to determine which of the beautfiully toned coins have become that way naturally or artificially? Are they mostly artifical and does that mean alots more of them can be created, reducing the value of the current toned coins?
tc says...Personally, I think it is pretty tough to fool the major grading services on classic commems being AT. I know some will disagree and that's fine as well as healthy. Myself, the only ones I shy from are rattlers. Let's be realistic....they get a few more bucks because people smell upgrades. However, rattlers have been around since slabbing started. If they haven't been broken out yet, what's the real chance they will get the upgrade. Yet, because of how the rattlers were made, we've all heard the rumors about how they can be assisted with toning. I don't know about that but my senses go off now when I see a rattler. Generally, I pass on them. Anything not in a rattler holder (speaking about PCGS only), I'll take as legit over 99 plus percent of the time in terms of toning re classic commems.
6)If the naturally beautiful toned coins are rare, then why are the premiums they sell at out of line?
tc says...because they are rare. It's simple supply and demand. They aren't out of line unless you consider anythng outside of generic buy/see Greysheet to be out of line.
7)The upcoming collection at Heritage seems quite variable in quality (not as consistently good in each coin). Am I wrong? If I am right, is that because it is very difficult to put together a really attractive, consistent collection across all of these coins as is probably the case with lincolns (ie some lincolns were born ugly)?
tc says.....Who can really tell from pictures? That's a good reason for having a dealer who will be there take a look for you on anything that catches your eye. I don't know squat about Lincolns (no offense, they don't do it for me..although if they do for you or anyone else, terrific and I hope you get every one that you want).
It's not tough to put together a nice classic commem set, especially if you want MS63 through MS65, although you should read the book(s) first before dropping the bucks on the more expensive MS65 issues like a Lafayette or Hawaiian. If you're looking to move into the "rarified air" of the top five guys, bring your checkbook and your firstborn. If you are happy being in the almost as select second tier, make good friends with the 3-5 dealers who get the best of the best and the trade-ins from the top 5 guys.
Commems are a lifetime passion for me. I started at my uncle's knee almost fifty years ago. Along the way, I've gotten better at them and traded up/improved my collection all the time. Unless truly bad times occur, my collection is going nowhere for a long time. Now, when I upgrade, I either get a great trade-in deal or I have a dealer or two who are only too happy to see me bring something over to them. I used to have a couple of folks who wanted my discards, as well, but college tuitions and babies have, temporarily, removed them from the fun of collectiing. That's ok, eventually they will return.
I hope this helps to answer some of your questions. I don't pretend to have all the answers and there are a lot smarter guys here on commems than me (Scher, Monsterman etc.). However, this series will, I believe, not just pick up but rocket up...within the next 3-5 years for the good coins. They don't have to be monsters either (although that's where the biggest money will always be). If you get the top 25 percent of the commens within the grade you desire to collect, when your time to sell arrives, I think you will be very pleased.
Please feel fee to ask any other questions you may have, either here or via PM.
Good luck and enjoy!
<< <i>Good Lord man, you've gone crazy here with links and we can't see a dang one of them
What was that saying you told me your old football coach said?
"Son, I only know football, that's all I know.
If my car breaks down on the side of the road and I open the hood, there better be a bunch of footballs under that hood or I'm in trouble." >>
Go catch the plane to the coin show and find me the coins I want, darnit!!!!
<< <i>I think people should not buy these coins..they seem way overpriced..
especially high end commems...stay away from em..at least for a while...
Bruce Scher >>
I'm sure you include yourself in that, Bruce? :
Seriously though, if you have any discards due to upgrades that you might want to free from your grip, PM me.
<< <i>I've said it before, and I'll say it again...if these were any other coins with these mintage figures they would be going for Moon money. Nowhere else would you be able to purchase a coin with a mintage of under 5,000 for a hundred bucks or so.
Cheers,
Bob >>
Quite true
<< <i>I've said it before, and I'll say it again...if these were any other coins with these mintage figures they would be going for Moon money. Nowhere else would you be able to purchase a coin with a mintage of under 5,000 for a hundred bucks or so. >>
Actually, there are other coins that have that characteristic, darkside coins. Can some classic commems and world coins be considered to be in a "penalty box" with respect to mainstream US coin collectors?
for commems....absolutely....for white middle graded coins....but for monsters...there is always a market and those in line will always buy them
as far as world coins...i can comment
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>>>> Can some classic commems and world coins be considered to be in a "penalty box" with respect to mainstream US coin collectors
for commems....absolutely....for white middle graded coins....but for monsters...there is always a market and those in line will always buy them
monsterman >>
truer words were never spoken, IMHO.
I'd only add, in addition to monsters...nicely toned, but not monster, commems will also always have a solid market. It's the dipped, white, traditional...middle of the road classic commem from the heydays of when bright white ruled, that I don't see ever coming back and, in effect, largely holding the market back now.
<< <i>I think people should not buy these coins..they seem way overpriced..
especially high end commems...stay away from em..at least for a while...
Bruce Scher >>
You wouldn't happen to have any bids in a certain auction, now would you Bruce?
tc ...i did miss speak....nicely toned coins also will always be sought after...in fact i always buy them too
one more thing....i miss spoke again ...wowser bright white coins wil also be sought after too...i own a few headlight californias with luster off the chart and some texas and boones
not to mention
about 50 white out of this world pl s....some rare ones too like san diego..and w/c
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Commems and Early Type